chesterfield And horsehair

[fp2161]

Hey all,

I am trying to buy a new leather Chesterfield and I feel quite overwhelmed by choice and decisions, plus there are very few independent information about them on the web...

I am considering a sofa stuffed in horse hair, some say it is the most resistant over time, is this true? How can I be sure (or close) that I am not being sold a foam sofa for the price of a horse hair one (is there any trick... Or not?? How should it feel, etc?)

Also has any of you heard about Fleming and Howland? And Paringer? these houses seem more expensive than others, is it worthy and can they be trusted or would I be better off going to an independent upholsterer?

This is not exactly the purpose of this forum, so I do apologise to those purists who just wanna talk about technique, but I would be grateful if you guys could give me some tips about buying the right stuff (after all, educating clients is a big part of maintaining higher quality standards in the industry)

With many thanks in advance,

[mike802]

fp2161 I cant say much about Fleming, Howland or Paringer, as I have never heard of them.  But it is true that horsehair padding will out last any synthetic fiber.  Horsehair is a natural padding martial made from the main and tail of horses.  The cleaning and sterilizing process gives the hair a perm so to speak making it curly and giving it resiliency.  Horsehair will last a hundred years, it will pack down after time, but this does not reduce its ability to supply a good firm base padding over springs, or frame work.  All synthetic fibers are treated with a flame retardant chemical, that makes it hard to burn, but not imposable and once ignited will burn readily giving off noxious and toxic fumes, horsehair will burn, but will not give off toxic fumes. 

It is going to be hard to tell if the sofa in question actually has horsehair padding in it if it is a high quality piece, since it is used as a base padding.  Maybe someone on this board has reupholstered the brand you are questioning and can chime in.    Other things to look for is a "solid" hardwood frame, I have seen many company's advertise a hardwood frame and upon taking it apart, I have found a piece of oak stapled onto a plywood frame section.  Also  high end frames should be at the minimum joined with dowels, not staples.  Unfortunately most furniture salesmen have no idea how the furniture they are selling is made.  Your best bet to get a quality piece is to find an upholster or a custom builder who is willing to build you what you want.  There are a couple good frame company's that upholsters can buy from that build with solid hardwood, using dowel joinery.  You can order the padding you want and check in from time to time and watch the progress, or get documentation with pictures, an honest upholster should not have any problems taking pictures for you. 

[kodydog]

Hey all,
This is not exactly the purpose of this forum, so I do apologise to those purists who just wanna talk about technique, but I would be grateful if you guys could give me some tips about buying the right stuff (after all, educating clients is a big part of maintaining higher quality standards in the industry)
With many thanks in advance,

We love to help people on this forum. No matter if its cars, boats, Rv's', or how to raise your children.

Not familiar with the Chesterfield brand. Maybe some of our UK friends will be more help.  But their web site looks awesome.
https://www.chesterfields1780.com/#/us/en/heirloom-sofas-samual-johnson_product

I'm no expert in horse hair but I can say I've reupholstered pieces of furniture with it in and it holds up very well, better than polyurethane foam. Not to say theirs anything wrong with foam. The problem is most manufacturers are using some really cheep stuff in their cushions. And there is no way for the consumer to tell if the sofa their buying has the cheep stuff or some good high density foam in it.
Like Mike said the sales people at the stores are usually clueless.

If you want more info on horse hair go to the top of the page and hit "search"

If you need an idea what a shop that builds furniture "one piece at a time" can do check out mikes web site
http://www.mjamsdenfurniture.com/

[fp2161]

Thank you both for your help,

I have indeed met a lot of hungry salesmen that were more looking to me like the incredible bulls$$$$$$$ men so far: one of them (French) told me that he would make me a chesterfield in aniline leather by removing the protective surface off his semi-aniline leather :o and another one (English) that he could not use horsehair padding because it was less durable than foam  ::)
Fleming and howland is claiming to be a very old chesterfield company (back to 1780). Horsehair is apparently an option for them (rare and expensive but they can do it). Paringer is a very old Parisian furniture maker (1900 for their first chesterfield, or so they claim). Their shop looks a bit scruffy though, and their demonstration sofa is too (albeit the price is rather stellar), though they claim an old fashioned, all horsehair construction.
What are the best woods for the frame? Are there any worldwide company providing the best ones that you could recommend?

[kodydog]

Not to be a smart ass or anything but I goggled "horse hair" and here's what came up
http://thismightgetweird.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/horse-hair-really/
the weird thing is the top one looks like my neighbors horse.

[fp2161]

Not sure this is what I am after... Shall I need a horse hairdresser for my chesterfield???

[mike802]

If you need an idea what a shop that builds furniture "one piece at a time" can do check out mikes web site
http://www.mjamsdenfurniture.com/

Thanks kodydog  :D

The best hardwood for upholstered furniture frames is soft maple.  It is just as durable as hard maple, but when it comes time for reupholstering it will allow the old staples to be removed, with some hardwood it is almost imposable it get them out and only the top get snapped off.  Soft maple also lets go of the staples without big chunks of the wood coming off as well.  Typically you will find most mass produced frames, if not plywood are oak.

[fp2161]

This is interesting, from what I have heard in Europe, the most common material for sofas and chair in the upmarket range is beech, because it is harder than oak, apparently... I don't know whether soft maple is used or even known...

I would love to order a chesterfield from you, but unfortunately it would cost a fortune in custom duties and transport!!!

[mike802]

Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to ship over seas, so I couldn't really say what the cost would be, but you are probably right.  Any defect free, straight grained hardwood with quality joinery would last a lifetime.   As an upholster and furniture builder, I have a little different take on what makes the best hardwood for frames than a manufacture would.  I also weigh in the workability of the wood when it comes time for reupholstering.  Beach certainty is hard and will make a very suitable frame, but is one of those woods that will make staple removing very difficult when it comes time to reupholster. I don't know if there are Maple trees in Europe, here in Vermont they grow like weeds, one of  Vermont's largest and most famous products is Maple Syrup, it is the boiled sap from Hard Maple, or Sugar Maple Trees.  Soft Maple is sometimes referred to as Swamp Maple because it likes to grow in low wet areas.  In the fall the Maple Tree Leaves turn brilliant colors of reds, orange and yellow depending on the particular species, combined with other species of trees it makes for a beautiful foliage and people come from all over the country, and world for the foliage season.

[kodydog]

When I worked in manufacturing in NC the interior frames were made of poplar. This wood  is fast growing, cheep, and plentiful in the North Carolina mountains. The manufacturers use it on the insides and a superior wood on exteriors (usually oak, cherry or mahogany). This way they could claim their product had solid hardwood frames. Only problem is poplar is brittle, full of flaws, and in my opinion not much better than pine. It's bad for warping, twisting and cupping. Poplar is also very inconsistent. You can put two pieces side by side and one will be hard as a rock and the other very soft (as far as wood goes). But it's cheep, what ever it takes to keep the price of furniture down.

[fp2161]

poplar is a tree that you can see alongside most of the roads in France: Napoleon ordered that they were grown there so that his armies can make a fire everywhere in France!!

[mike802]

Poplar, although technically a hardwood is more like pine in density.  The heart wood can be quite hard, but it is considered junk wood by most studio furniture makers.  If used at all it is usually regulated for draw bottoms, sides, painted cabinets and painted interior moldings.

[fp2161]

How about the leather? What should be the right thickness for it?
A couple of vendors tried to sell some pigmented or semi-aniline leather as aniline leather... What should be preferred in your opinion, what is most durable in the longer run, which one will age better???

[bobbin]

I am not an upholsterer (and I don't play one on TV, either).  But I'll offer up this information:

I had a lovely sofa reupholstered just before I was married.  The sofa dates from around 1840 and is completely padded with horsehair.  I spoke with 3 guys and every one of them told me to insist that the horsehair be reused.  All 3 said it was, hands down, the finest padding available in upholstery and the only reason it's not still "king" is because horses are no longer as commonly used as they used to be!

I love old furniture and have done a lot of reading on techniques/materials over the years.  Nearly everything I've read has recommended that original horsehair be reused.  Airing it out and washing it is suggested; and that the price to do that is worth it.  I think it was Lynn who said she regularly laundered it and dries it in her basement!

Kody and Mike 802 won't steer you wrong with their hard won advice.  They, "know their onions" when it comes to upholstery; framing is very important... the same guys who told me to insist the horsehair be reused all said the quality of a piece's frame is the main criterion when deciding whether or not to REupholster. 

If your vision of a "Chesterfield" is the same as mine, you are going to buy a piece that will be treasured for generations to come.  Very cool, very classic, and a wonderful addition to any room! 

[alge]

Hello FP, I've taken a quick look through the thread here and the general trend of advice is spot on. We use chesterfields as a benchmark of an upholsterers skill as they are one of the hardest sofas to get looking right. (I've currently got three on the go but thankfully they are foam jobs for a hotel so are not too complicated)

(Mike) In Britain Beech is almost always used for a quality frame (although most now comes from Lithuania as we are only a little island and our beech forests disappeared and prior to replanting being normal). Beech comes up as a similar weight and feel as the maple we used in the shop in Montreal i worked in for a while, the tight grain holds a tack or staple better than any wood around.) FP. Your frame will probably be dowel jointed and glued using a type of pva glue, It may be sold as glued screwed and doweled, the screws are only there to hold the frame joints tight during the curing of the glue and really wont extend the life of a good frame much.

I've reupholstered chairs up to around 300 years old that still have aspects of the original horsehair pad so as far as durability goes over the lifetime of foam the salesman who suggested foam is more durable should be dragged through the streets of High wycombe and flogged with a horse tail three line whip, 100 lashes should do the trick. Like K.dog that's not to say foam is a poor product it just degrades sooner and here in the UK. our foam has to comply with fire regs. that are not applicable or perhaps enforced so vigourously abroad which means our foams have a differing chemical make up that can effect the performance of cheeper foams adversely. An interesting question would be to ask if they are offering a traditionally stitched 100% horse tail hair sofa, coil sprung either by hand or a spring unit, or indeed a rubberised horse hair, coir and cotton felt combo. Either way both would out last foam by a minimum of decades (just as a note if you live directly on the coast saline air can degrade rubber products in furniture faster than if you live inland).

When it comes to hides..... how long have you got? this becomes pretty subjective and i think that salesman B.S. aside each company will have developed their own way of working hides especially if they have been doing it for a century. Its basically down to whether they upholster the sofas in un-dyed anaiine hide then colour it once upholstered or they use a pigmented hide that they buy in pre coloured. I cant be certain but if they are offering a semi-aniline option this may be vegetable dyed then upholstered then antiqued after to semi-seal the hide. Basically as far as the end user should be concerned anaiines will be softer but will soak up body oils, hair products etc. over time, pigmented hides are stiffer & tend to be a flatter colour but possibly more durable, a semi-aniline will sit between the two. Most upholstery grade hides will measure between 1 - 1.5 mm thick (thicker is not automatically better). A good sales person will be asking you about your lifestyle to tailor the product to your needs/circumstances.

Shipping costs can be expensive, a client of mine bought a fluted chair off ebay from a shop in New york and had a courier ship it here it cost $500 and i think it was UPS, that was in 2009.

Out of interest FP can i be cheeky and guess that your budget is around £3500? Rude to ask i know but it would help us work out what is going into it and what value that represents.

I hope that helps

Alex  :)