Every ending is a new begining

[mike802]

I was poking around the internet yesterday, just looking at gardening and farming forums looking to see if any other people are considering the same type of venture as I am. 

I found one place where a lady had posted a question very similar to what I am considering doing, using the same methods that I want to use.  And boy did she get a ration of sh#%!  First out the door was how she needed a business plan, well I understand the importance of a business plan, I studied it extensively in college  and yes you have to have one if you are looking to get a loan from a bank.  But in the real world you can kiss all your best projections goodby once the rubber hits the road.  That said, does not mean anyone should fly by the seat of their pants, it's good to have a plan. You need to know your market, what looks like it might sell, how you are going to produce it, market it and fund it, etc.  This plan can be on paper or in your head, that depends on the person, but unless you are going to a bank it does not have to be a formal business plan and keep ever in mind, all your research may very well be obsolete by the time your operation is up and running.

Next up.  She was ever reminded on just how expensive it was going to be to get started,  all the equipment needed, the tractors, the implements, and don't forget irrigation, water is so expensive and the cost of irrigation infrastructure is so prohibitive!  They asked her questions like "where are you going to get your water?"  "can you drill a well where you live?"  Valid questions you might say, but the people asking these questions have absolutely no idea how the methods she plans on using work.  How come no one ever wonders why the forest does not get watered, but it grows just fine?   

Of course there was some support for her venture, but the thread quickly degenerated into hostile back and forth posts.   Did I find the negative points discouraging?  No way! in fact I found them inspiring!  Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the negative and discouraging comments were all from shills for big ag who are threatened by the movement of locally grown produce and sustainable agriculture in general.  Can you say Monsanto?  I knew you could.  Makes me wish I was 20 again. 

[Mojo]

It was a simple way of life and I miss it.

C'mon Chris. If you took over a small farm tomorrow, within a year you would be pouring over data trying to figure how to increase yield by another 8%. You would expand, buy equipment, and micro-manage the hell out of it. You wouldn't be satisfied until you owned a chain of farms up and down the eastern seaboard.

You would invent some farming gadget, and make the rounds at the trade shows hawking it. Then you would develop a marketing plan for mass distribution.

If you truly wanted the simple life, you would already have it. Be careful what you wish for.

Since the Smileys don't work.......please note that this is all "Tongue in cheek" (but there's a little bit of truth in every bit of humor).

Tongue in cheek or not, you hit the nail on the head. I have no idea what makes me do the things I do. Hell, better yet why I do the things I do at this age instead of sitting on a beach in Costa Rica drinking Diet Cokes and smoking cigars is beyond me. Most guys our age are studying retirement plans and not market share charts or marketing programs.

I am pretty convinced my wife will find me dead either in the shop or at my desk going over the latest marketing plan.

To be honest, it is a sore spot with her. In her words " you do not have an OFF switch and you need to find one before God turns your lights off for you permanently  ".   lol

Chris

[gene]

Mike, I can say "Monsanto".

A guy who owns a micro brewery in town was on the radio last week. He was talking about how AB and Miller are lobbying to have a law that requires nutritional info on all beer bottles. For the big boys and girls, this would be no problem. But for the small micro breweries, they may run a batch of beer, bottle it, then try something else next month. It would be cost prohibitive to pay for a lab to analyse every different batch of beer they make. There's no question that the big beer producers are looking for ways to put the little guys out of business. The little guys are small individually, but there are so many of them now that their collective market share is significant.

Science has told us a lot about the world we live in. Unfortunately, much of science today is politically driven and money motivated.
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I am a big advocate of writing a business plan for anyone wanting to start a business. There seems to be a difference between thinking about something and taking the time to write it down on paper (or type on a computer).

This may sound odd, but I think the biggest benefit to writing a well thought out business plan is all the questions you come up with that you would not have otherwise thought about until you were knee deep in muck and mire and it was too late to turn back. And most of the answers, as you said, won't come until you are knee deep in muck and mire... But seeing the questions will give you a better idea of what might be ahead.

Most small business ventures fail because folks, as you said Mike, try to fly by the seat of their pants. That's why I love SCORE, if it's in your area. At least you'll get someone who's been there to look at your plan.

Best of regards in your ventures!

Gene

[mike802]

Gene:  You would get an A in business class, I cant argue with your answer its always good to have a plan on paper.  My wife is the same way, she loves to see it all written down, in alphabetical order! LOL I guess the point I was trying to make is that having to have a business plan was being used to discourage the woman, some people become very intimidated by things they know nothing about.  I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from making a formal business plan, or if they don't know how, to research it and learn how to do it.  But I would never tell someone they cant be successful without one either, which is just what the posters were implying. I have actually written several business plans for my upholstery business when I needed to borrow money from a bank.  But I'm not looking for money this time and would rather work for myself than the bank. Yes the points I made are what one would find in a business plan, I just tend to go about it a little different, but thats just me.  Yes we have SCORE in our area and I have also used them in the past, it sounds like you had a better experience than I did, unfortunately the guy I talked with did not understand the upholstery business at all.  I have some friends who are doing a similar business that I am contemplating and I will defiantly be bouncing ideas off them.  Nutritional info on beer bottles?  What a joke.  Maybe they should list if they use GMO's, bet that would nip that in the bud.    I agree they are trying to push the little guy out.   Why don't they try to gain market share by offering a Superior product?  I guess thats to hard.   Vermont passed a law a few years ago now, that lets farmers sell raw milk and we have been buying it ever since.  I don't like that we have to sign a card with our names and address that stays on record with the farmer, but it's a steep in the right direction.  Good info here for anyone who is interested  http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/

[Mojo]

I do believe in business plans. I think in many areas or industries they are a necessity. In my case my business plans were always wrote inside my head because I always started a company extremely small and grew from there. I had a general idea as to what I wanted to do and then went from there.

I never pigeon holed myself and remained flexible as the market changed or an opportunity arose. The one thing I have always done is bounce ideas and thoughts off trusted advisors. One was my Godfather who was a brilliant business man. He had the midas touch when it came to business so he was one of my trusted advisors. When he passed away a couple years ago I started having my son advise me as I went, bouncing ideas off him. He too is an amazing business man with a mind that sees things others, including myself cannot. A self made millionaire by the time he was 25 this kid has a business mind that just blows me away.

I also use experts quite often to bounce ideas off of. The CEO of Miami is a friend of mine and one who I will throw ideas at. I had an idea and was ready to pull the trigger on it when he begged me to stop and think. He was totally against the plan I had. I listened and between him and my son I canned the idea. It was a damn good thing as it could have went painfully bad for the company. The head of Sattler North America is also a very close friend and one of my trusted advisors when it comes to business and marketing plans I may have. In the canvas and awning business this guy is amazing. He has seen it all so his advice is extremely important to me.

In other words, I generate ideas and then bounce them off all of these guys and I always make sure I remind myself to listen carefully, even when it is something I do not want to hear. They help me tweek my plans or ideas and this is why I have been successful in every new venture within our company. To be successful one has to keep their ego in check and be ready to ask for advice from experts and then be ready to act on what they told you.

I did not build this company by myself and through my own brain power. If there is anything I can personally attribute to our success is my ability to cultivate friendships and by knowing who you can  trust and offer great advice and who cannot.

A know it all attitude and a big ego has sank many ships ( and dreams ) for people. So seeking advice from experts is a good thing. My eyes and ears are always open looking for the next opportunity.

Chris

[Darren Henry]

Darren:  I think of you often and remember the difficult times you endured a few years ago, while I go through this. I think your area my be similar to mine.

It certainly sounds like deja vu all over again LOL. I am happy to hear that you have chosen to stay where you want to be rather than moving your existing operation to greener pastures. That was one lesson I have had re-enforced. I moved to Kenora (Norhtwest Ontario) as an orthopaedic shoe maker. I loved the area and made some very good friends. When lack of work forced me out of that job I chose to stay in Kenora rather than move to one of the 6 places in Canada that I could work in trade as I didn't like any of them as much as I liked Kenora. I worked on the lake for one season and then stumbled into upholstery. Life was good for several years until the mill closed and the economy dried up. I took a job working for Bath Fitter, but it too petered out after a year and a half. My mother's health was bad and dad's was no hell when this job came open here in Brandon Manitoba, so I took it to be closer to them and to eat regularly. Mom died the week before I moved here and Dad has since passed as well but the economy back in Kenora still isn't appealing so here I sit working for an abusive SOB that should be kicked in the throat with a speed skate wishing I had stayed in Kenora and taken up poaching as required to get by. 

My knee jerk reaction is selective logging and selling specialty wood until you have cleared enough land to start gardening.

I guess this would qualify as part of your "business plan" LOL. My thought was " rather than bulldoze and burn---how can you make $$$$ clearing land?" . It sounds like firewood is a viable "crop" in your area. Bark and limps can be chipped and sold as landscape mulch, to get rid of them. Poplar and other hardwoods are sold to OSB plants (at least here). Exotic woods like ash,walnut, etc... are generally sold in smaller cut and dried pieces. I thought a bandsaw mill like a woodmiser (sp) might be the answer there. You'll no doubt keep the really good stuff for your own furniture making division.

I really like the idea of sugaring off the maples. That will give you some windbreaks around your plots and prevent erosion as well as providing a cash crop in the spring before the veggies are ready. If I remember my high school geography Vermont should have the same sugar maples we have in southern Quebec. The maples we have here on the prairies don't produce enough sap to make it worth while to make syrup, but yours should produce enough. The last time I looked at syrup at a farmer's market it was like $15/pint. Granted you need to reduce 40 pints of sap to get it, but that doesn't have to be an expensive operation.

Follow your dreams, my friend. It sounds like getting there is going to be an exciting experience. 

[mike802]

Chris:  Very well said, you are fortunate to have such business savory people to bounce ideas off and get sound advice.  Sound like that son of yours has a bright future ahead of him! 

Darren: I don't think I could be happy anywhere else, probably my down fall.  My sister left the state for greener pastures and is doing very well for herself, but I would spiritually die where she lives.  The marble industry was the big employer here back in the 20's, 30's and into the 40's but is just about dead now.  The town I live in never really recovered, the holes and cranes are all over the place.  When I was a kid we used to climb up into a huge gantry crane and ride it back and forth, should have got my but kicked good for that one.

I have most of the equipment needed to clearing the land.  I bought a chipper to chip up all the brush and limbs.  The chips will be applied over the garden space.   The Back To Eden gardening method uses wood chips as a heavy mulch.  Which in turns creates compost, compost tea and retains and regulates soil moisture along with protecting from soil erosion.  I don't have a sawmill yet, new ones are to expensive for me at the moment, my son is chomping at the bit to start building our own, I do have some old cars sitting around that are starting to look like a sawmill LOL.   At the moment all my efforts are going into rebuilding a dump truck.  It was one of those purchases where half way into it you realize it might have been a better idea to keep looking.  But I'm stuck with it now, it will be a good truck when I'm done, but it's holding me up right now.

Granted you need to reduce 40 pints of sap to get it, but that doesn't have to be an expensive operation.

Unfortunately in order to be Vermont Certified you have to have some very expensive infrastructure in place.  Although expensive is a relative term, it would be expensive for me and I will have to ease into it slowly over time.  Most everyone today uses plastic hose and vacuum pumps. when I do it I want to do it the old fashion way with buckets a wood fired evaporator and turn the operation into a destination for tourist and locals who want to see what Sugaring in Vermont used to be like.  I might even use horses to pull the collection tank, but that one is to be determined at a later date, at least an antique tractor. 

[Darren Henry]

I want to do it the old fashion way with buckets a wood fired evaporator and turn the operation into a destination for tourist and locals who want to see what Sugaring in Vermont used to be like. 

I had assumed that that was the way you'd see it. I hadn't considered government intervention, mind you. Do you require Vermont certification to sell at craft shows, or from your property? I remember a similar problem in southern Ontario a few years ago where the powers that be tried to  make everyone who sold an egg etc.. to a neighbour be licensed etc...As I remember the outcome (you may want to research this) small producers are allowed to sell milk, eggs, veggies etc... from their own farm to the public. If they want to supply the milk marketing board etc... or sell to a store, they need the proper permits etc...

Get the horse!!!! Not because it will validate your " pioneer farm" destination, but because it can be more versatile than a tractor. I remember my Dad talking about a horse that his uncle Bill used to haul wood on the farm when he was a kid and how it worked so smart. I saw some tree-hugger mini-documentary on tv and watched it because of old "Charlie" and Dad's story. They were logging small plots in Southern Ontario very selectively. Their goal was to weed out old trees that were on the way out to allow for new growth. The horse could be maneuvered where ever it needed to be and then pull on a rope to help them fall the tree exactly where they wanted it to land by voice command  (remote control LOL). Once limbed the horse only needed a 2 foot skid way and could snake around corners that a tractor would have had to stop and clear a route.

Then again----a quad has never bit me or stepped on my foot and only needs gas when it is running.

[mike802]

I would really like to use horses, but I dont know much about them.  My son has a friend who is into horses and I am sure would be more than happy to teach me, but I think her knowledge is mostly based around riding, I'm not sure what she knows about draft horses.  It would be quite a learning curve for sure.   I think if I wanted to sell maple syrup and just label it Uncle Mikes and sell it in mason jars I could do just about anything I wanted and could do it on the cheap.  It's when you put it in those fancy bottles labeled "Vermont Maple Syrup" that you run into all kinds of regulation.  The state passed this law after they found out large company's were buying sap from all over New England and Canada, processing it in a huge plant in a city some where and bottling it up in those fancy bottles that say "Vermont Maple Syrup".  Maple producers felt it was important for the state to do something to protect the Vermont brand and I don't blame them.  There is a lot of help available from the state for people like me, also the Vermont Maple Sugar Makers Association can be very helpful.   

[gene]

The past 3 winters a friend made maple syrup from trees here in SW Ohio. He collected the sap in buckets and boiled it down with propane stoves. He figured he spent $12.50 per pint. And this does not include his labor. He was not doing it for commercial purposes.

The propane is what is so expensive. Burning free firewood is the best way to go.

Those commercial producers with all the tubes coming off the trees are kool. I saw a video where they have electronic monitors that will tell them exactly where a leak in the system is. With miles of tubing that could save a lot of time.

I watched the first 3 videos of Fortier's. The benefit he has with not having a horse is that he can end his work day at 5 and travel during the winter.

gene

[Mojo]

Mike:

Believe it or not, draft horses are gentle giants. I am more comfortable around them then standard horses.

I have been knocked out cold, kicked, bit, bucked off, thrown, leaned on and stepped on. But what the hell I married my wife anyways. I always loved a challenge and being married to an Aussie is one of those.

Opp's, back to horses.

Working with horses is an amazing experience but takes a lot of experience. Snaking logs with draft horses can get you hurt or killed if your not careful. When they pull, they PULL and will take a log right over you.

My Uncle has a team and used them around his farm for fun. He used to be in pulling contests. The draft horses are amazing animals. I would have loved to have owned a team.

Chris

[byhammerandhand]

I often thought that if I hit the lottery and became rich, I'd get some draft horses until the money was gone.

My grandfather and dad farmed with horses before I was born.  So most of the farm equipment was converted over from horse pulled.   He said the horses always knew the last round of the day because they'd speed up.

[mike802]

Working with horses is making a come back.  This spring I saw one farmer plowing his field with a two horse team, that was really neat and he wasn't Amish.  Horses are expensive, to buy and keep, but on the other hand when did a tractor give you a new model?  I have absolutely no clue how to train a horse and would have to buy one already trained.  As much as I like the idea and the romance of using horses, it sure is nice to park the tractor and not have to worry about feeding it, or it getting sick, but if gas ever becomes nonexistent it sure would be nice to have a horse around.  Pros and Cons to everything I guess.  When I was a kid there were not many horses in Vermont, but today there are horse boarding farms all over the place, the popularity of horses has just exploded here in the last 20 to 30 years.  A lot of people who are into horses are fanatical about it, I know three people who keep horses and live a life of poverty to keep them.

[Mojo]

They are very expensive and even more so today with the price of hay and grain. We charged $ 150 a month to board horses on our farm. But then we had pasture and an outdoor riding arena. No idea how much it is these days but I am sure it is considerably more.

Then you have worming, Vet checks, vaccines and the biggie shoeing. Farriers are not cheap and hoof's need to be trimmed often. If they throw a shoe then back the farrier comes and more money.

It seems like it never ends. Kinda like raising teenage kids.

Chris