Hand tied springs

[Rich]

I don't do much in the way of living room furniture, so I tend to cringe whenever I feel the need to take in a chair or sofa that needs to have the coil springs retied.
Every time I look at one of these, I say to myself "there has to be an easier way that will produce the same results". The main aspect of this operation that I can't understand is the attachment of the coils. I see that the bottoms are fastened to the bottom webbing by either Klinch-it fasteners or heavy thread. But the tops are held in place by an elaborate, time consuming web of tying twine. I wonder why so much time is invested in lacing tying twine in and around each spring, knotting where needed and tacking the ends to the frame when the bottoms are simply secured to the webbing? Is there a difference in the force exerted at the top as opposed to the bottom of the spring? Couldn't the tops be secured to a pre-made lattice of heavy fabric or webbing that would be then tacked to the frame? It seems to me (maybe I'm wrong) that the technique of hand tying dates back to a time when labor was much cheaper than today and the tradition has held due to status (Featuring eight-way hand tied springs!!) or maybe a blind adherance to "old world craftmanship", or maybe just a lack of any other way to do it.
Am I onto something, or just way off base?
Thanks,
Rich

[mike802]

The top of the springs have a lot more movement than the bottom.  The bottoms can be attached using hog rings, they are much faster than sewing and less expensive than a clintch it tool, but work well.  It is important to get the bottom of the springs attached in the proper spot.  Hand tying really is not that bad once you get the hang of it and a sofa can be sprung up within three or four hours.    A drop in spring unit can be used, its called a Webline.  Uses coil springs within a metal frame that can be installed into the chair or sofa, but imo they are a poor substitute for traditional hand tied coil springs.

[Rich]

Thanks Mike, but can you tell me WHY hand tying is superior to a method like I described?
Thanks,
Rich

[baileyuph]

Hey Rich,

Two main reasons are:
   1.  Coils must be set vertical throughout, the requirement for the spring tied network is to be absolutely flat.  This is where your removeable cushions lay.  Using a sheet of heavy material opposed to ties will not permit that to be achieved, the end springs, on all four sides would be pulled down, hence creating a cushion deck with a crown. 

  2.  Eight-way with jute twine enables one to place and secure each individual spring vertical and provides a very stable spring deck for cushions.

You just need to do a few more and you would get the idea and develop the art.  I can't think of a better spring base that is preferred for quality seating.  There are better ways of securing the coils at the bottom, however.  I like the efficiency of steel straps running from front to back opposed to burlap because it speeds the process and the compromise is a minimum, if any. 

Doyle

[Rich]

Thanks Doyle,
So the goal is to get all the coils level across the top? Doesn't the tension on the spring twine do that? I know I've seen tying techniques where the twine skips down one coil at the edge springs so as not to compress the outer springs. Maybe that's the fix for that. But anyway, I don't see that as a problem with a pre-made overlay if it was designed to work that way.
Mike, I re-read your post, did you mean to say 3-4 hours including re-webbing the bottom? Seems like a good place to cut some time!
Rich

[baileyuph]

[But anyway, I don't see that as a problem with a pre-made overlay if it was designed to work that way.
/quote]

Tell some more about the overlay Rich. 

Remember some spring bases do not support removeable cushions and are not flat, so far the focus has been on spring bases that support removeable cushions.


Doyle

[Rich]

Imagine that you could go to a completely hand tied spring assembly and lift the already tied twine off the springs. Of course, in reality this would be impossible, since the twine is looped around each spring wire, but if you could do this, you would have a pre-made (I'll call it a lattice) arrangement of twine that would resemble a tennis net. If you could buy this pre-made lattice, you would cut off the length you needed (the width would probably be standard for most applications) and lay it over the springs. The points of intersection between the lattice and the spring coils would then be clinched using whatever fastener would quickly bind the two. The attachment to the wood frame might be done before, during or after the spring connections depending on what worked best. I'm sure a standard procedure would emerge with experimentation. When done, the whole assembly would be just as flexible and durable as hand tying, but it would take much less time to construct since there would be no threading around and over the spring of each length of twine.
Could it work? I know you couldn't call it hand tied springs anymore, but think of how much labor was saved in home building when plywood replace individual boards for floors and walls. I don't think many people miss those days.
Rich

[mike802]

No my time estimate did not include replacing the webbing, that would add a little more time,  Some upholsters like to use the metal straps in place of webbing, many actually add these during reupholstering when the webbing is sagging to help support webbing that really should be replaced.   The metal straps when used as a spring foundation works well, but I like the traditional method of jute webbing. IMO it gives more than metal and adds to the seating comfort and if properly installed should give 30 to 50 years of service.

I would have reservations concerning your tennis netting idea for tying springs.  When tying springs each row of springs from front to back must first be properly spaced and pulled down "hard" and attached to the frame.  I have stripped many sofas and chairs where the springs were not tied nearly as tight as they should be, attached to the frame using only #12 or #14 webbing tacks.  A properly tied spring system would pull these tacks right out.  This is the main reason the twine drops down a coil on the front and back spring, to avoid rounding the spring down.  The second strand of twin is tied over the top coil with only enough force to flatten the seating surface.  This procedure must be done on each row front to back and again side to side.  The angled strands act to make all the springs act as one unit.  A properly tied coil spring unit will also give service for 30 to 50 years and will be quite as well.  Metal on metal springs units bend and rub causing squeaks.  Hand tying springs can add considerable cost to reupholstering, but when you consider the added life you give to the furniture it really is inexpensive in the long run.  

[Joys Shop]

imagine that you could go to a completely hand tied spring assembly and lift the already tied twine off the springs. Of course, in reality this would be impossible, since the twine is looped around each spring wire, but if you could do this, you would have a pre-made (I'll call it a lattice) arrangement of twine that would resemble a tennis net. If you could buy this pre-made lattice, you would cut off the length you needed (the width would probably be standard for most applications) and lay it over the springs. The points of intersection between the lattice and the spring coils would then be clinched using whatever fastener would quickly bind the two. The attachment to the wood frame might be done before, during or after the spring connections depending on what worked best. I'm sure a standard procedure would emerge with experimentation. When done, the whole assembly would be just as flexible and durable as hand tying, but it would take much less time to construct since there would be no threading around and over the spring of each length of twine.

Isn't this defeating the purpose of a custom job
Doing something like the above, is going the way of China
Make something quick and cheap

The purpose of custom work, is to deliver a quality job
That means hand tying springs.

[Rich]

Isn't this defeating the purpose of a custom job
Doing something like the above, is going the way of China
Make something quick and cheap

The purpose of custom work, is to deliver a quality job
That means hand tying springs.

I say a quality job is a quality job regardless of the time it takes. In my analogy of the plywood vs. boards, there are performance advantages to plywood that solid boards can't deliver. carburetors are certainly more involved mechanically than fuel injectors but can't deliver the benefits of fuel injection. There are many more examples I could mention.
Mike, it may be that hand tying is still the best it gets in today's world, but my way of thinking was to reinvestigate whether that was still true. Quality, yes. Intensive labor? Not unless it's justified.
Rich

[mike802]

Rich:  If you got the time and the interest to work on it, and you think you can come up with something better I say go for it.  Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say. 

[gene]

A few years ago I had a similar idea. I posted it on this forum somewhere. I can't find it.

I had some time in the shop and was playing around with making a jig that would compress the springs so I could then easily and quickly do an 8 way tie. I never got very far with the idea.

It still seems like it would work. The springs are in a specific compression state after tied. Why can't you put these springs in that compression state first, with the jig, then tie them. Releasing the jig would cause the ties to hold the springs in the exact same position. ???

Even if I did create a jig that did what I have explained above, I can still see times when I would want to hand tie the springs without the jig, just because it 'feels' right. It's like the times I hand sew the back out panel instead of using ply grip just because the furniture I am working on 'feels' like that would be the best way to do it.

Gene

PS. No, I'm not going nuts. I'm already there.

[MinUph]

  The thing I see with your idea of pre compressing the springs is that when in fact you did release them the springs would not be at the same position. They would stretch the twines and tighten the knots. Also consider not all springs in a base will act, look, or react the same as the one next to it. Maybe close if they were all new. But used springs differ in the way they have been tied and used.
  Part of the process of tying is to get each knot tight. This would not be possible in your manor. Not to say you shouldn't keep trying but the pre compression is not the only thing to consider.
  Upholsters have been tying springs for a few years now. If there was a better / quicker way I think we would have found it before now.
  The only quicker ways are other types of bases. Ziggers, rubber bands etc. have been used for some time and will never take the place of a 8way hand tied base. If done properly of course.

[Rich]

Rich:  If you got the time and the interest to work on it, and you think you can come up with something better I say go for it.  Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say. 

Of course, that is true. Being that I don't see much of this work, I might not be the best one to be experimenting, but maybe someone who does it more often could use the feedback found here.
I think it would be helpful to know what the objectives are. What is the goal of hand tying coil springs? I'll start the list based on what I know:
-Align all springs and secure top and bottom so that they are evenly spaced in relation to one another.
-Prevent them from moving left to right and front to back.
-Provide a means of keeping them in a semi-compressed form.
-Maintain a uniform height across the top of all springs.
-Use a material and a means of attachment that will hold the springs in this position for many years of use.
-?
Rich

[MinUph]

Rich,
  Not to rain on your parade really  ;D
  But your looking at the process in an over simplified way. First of all each spring has to be positioned by the twine to work properly. The spring next to this one is not necessarily going to be tied in the same manner. Some springs in a bas will be closer together, farther apart and tied at different coils. Ive even had to tie two or three coils together to bring a spring into position. This couldn't be done with a web. Also there are some bases that need allot of strength just to pull down the spring into position. This would loosen anything you might fasten this web to the springs with.
  You should do a few spring ups to see first hand the process and what is truly involved. You might get ideas from it. It is an art that really can't be simplified.
  Keep thinking it is good for the brain.