temperatures for Seamark

[Geech]

What is your minimum temperature to work with Seamark if you fit your canvas to your projects?  I have 65 (F) degrees as the minimum in my mind, but I'm so screwed on a job right now I figured I'd ask what everyone else says.

I was supposed to be working on a houseboat enclosure last week that was sidetracked 12 different ways for 40 different reasons, and tomorrow as I plan on showing up at the marina first thing in the morning - tonight's low is going to be 39F and it will only be 42F at 9 AM and a high of 54 at 3 PM.  It looks like I lost a day, but this guy is going to kill me at this point when I call to tell him because I missed two warm enough days last week.

So I have two questions - what is the safe minimum to use SeaMark without having it sag in July when its 85, and how do you handle customers who want to choke you because they're hoping the enclosure is done tomorrow and it simply is impossible to start it tomorrow?

[SHHR]

I really don't know about the temp, but I'd tell the customer as soon as he can control the weather, he'll be at the top of the schedule to get thing done for. Untill then he's just an average Joe who's going to have to wait his turn.

[Mike8560]

Well I never really used it much bwfore I moved to Fl and its probly been 60º when ive install some. Ive not seen any sag it just seems to get tight. and most ive all ive doneI patterned the tops to the frames that are unmovable with support anyway so its not like installing a window where I had a choise where a snap went. the top either goese on or it dont. Id just do it and do it tight. heck even if your top has strap and you pulled them to tight then your window that you have pattern will sag ot you pull the top to tight right?

[Eric]

I've done @ 55F but the sun was shining and it was black seamark. Pull as tight as you can, and then move your marks in so you're making the canvas a bit small. I just looked at one I did in heated storage, now out in sun,it's not bad, but  I could have made it tighter with the sun and 70F. I pulled as tight as I could snapping to the arch when in storage, now no problem.
Eric

[Geech]

Thanks - it helps to know I'm not crazy.  This one boat has been my Achilles heal since October.

Its a job to replace a full enclosure, and shamefully its been teaching me lesson after lesson and won't quit.  Owner's friend calls me and asks me to meet him at the boat as the owner doesn't know much about what he wants but his friend knows what to ask for.  Tells me customer has a 1" stainless frame currently, wants Seamark for everything, Strataglass, Tenara, etc.  Friend owns a new Formula and has been boating for a couple decades so it was easy to see by meeting him that he was given this task for a reason, he seems to know his stuff.

Went to the boat, totally ignored the frame, put together the estimate, and sold the job in August with the understanding that I couldn't get to it / didn't want to start it until it was on dry land in early October due to my still being green on jobs this size to be honest.

In late September I checked in with the owner to see if the boat would be available first week of October, he said no.  Second week was the best I could get, I said I was concerned with the weather getting too cold.  October can either mean 70's or snow in Pittsburgh... its not uncommon for kids to wear snowsuits under their halloween costumes in this area.

I received a call from the owner at the end of the first week of October saying they were off the boat and done for the season / headed to Las Vegas.  I asked if the boat would be ready for me by the following week and he said yes.  I showed up the following Tuesday locked and loaded with everything and a window of nice weather all week - but the boat was in the water and the marina was going to be pulling it sometime that week so I wasn't allowed to start working on it (which I didn't want to do in the water anyhow).  Called the owner - told him the situation, he assumed I'd tell the marina to pull his boat... not a request that the marina would have taken from me on a boat this size.

Two weeks later a window of opportunity opened up again as the canvas gods shined on me.  A couple of hiccups later (remember a post from me about Seamark not matching Sunbrella in the fall? I ordered a new batch of SeaMark that matched it much better but I lost a day) and it came down to one last nice day to fit the top that couldn't start before 1PM due to personal health problems / appointments unavoidable.  I was on a medication for a neck injury through a pain spet that because I expressed too much urgency about getting refilled when their office ignored my first 3 requests the week prior before running out, I now could not have it refilled without an appointment to prove I wasn't a lowlife junkie selling their pills on the street and sit in their office for 3 hours waiting to be drug tested to prove I was an honest person not trading the meds for crack on the street.  At this point I had been without the medication for 3 days - a medication you carefully need weened off in order to not do harm to your body as I had been on it for almost a year prior at that point, which in addition to immense pain led to withdraw symptoms that make me sick and dizzy enough to need a ride to the doctor for fear of getting in an accident and hurting someone let alone driving down the highway that Monday to stand 30' off the ground hanging canvas above pavement.   By the time I jumped through all the hoops to get the medication, got it refilled, and was driven home - by the time I was no longer feeling sick and ready to leave it was now noon , rain was coming in at 5 PM and darkness an hour later with rain not ending for a week after.   Anyone with a brain would have thrown in the towel then.  I'm an idiot some times because I hate failure.  The other thread about how dumb i am working too many hours solidifies that - but i promise those days are over.

At 1:30 PM I started taping the frame noticing quite an amazing amount of flex in it... but kept going. I tried to fit the canvas going side to side and again the flex of this frame kept me wondering how it would turn out and why it was doing so because it was twisting like a pretzel every which way I touched it and I taped the heck out it.  Taking a minute to answer my question while point out how stupid I was for believing someone and not checking it myself, I find out it has a thin wall 7/8" something frame which is flexing like a pretzel under the stress of the SeaMark as i pull it to the sides of the boat.  The fitting takes me hours and hours to do as a result of the frame bending and me adjusting and adjusting to get it to stay symmetrical looking  - and then it hits me - the rain has held off but I'm never going to fit the last two panels before complete darkness or the rain now on the horizon comes to me and this guys old enclose needs to be put back up because the age of this houesboat and the number of holes / globs of silicone around each mount on the deck tells me his brand new remodel of the interior did not include making sure the topside didn't leak water into it to ruin it like it had originally I suspect and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for a new interior ceiling for example.  I had to cut and run - I tossed $400 of cut and 3/4 fit SeaMark into a bin that sits in the corner of my garage as the box of shame knowing it would be used to make SeaMark grill covers someday if I'm lucky...  I struggled to install his destroyed 15 year old top back up in the rain without tearing the zippers that hadn't broke yet and walked away with my head hung low - all because of inexperience leading to stupid mistakes, but they were all my fault in my mind.

I lost my sh*t basically after this day.  I cooled off for a day, contacted the owner by email (his preferred way of contact, mine for proof in writing of what I had to say which i knew would be important in the future) and I told him he had two choices if he wanted me to do this job in the spring since I threw in the towel for the fall.  Either use Sunbrella for the top which could be stretched over this flexible frame (which at the time I was convinced was aluminum now) or pay for a new frame.  I told him everything i learned I learned in canvas school and read in the book of frame systems (name I can't recall right now but what a book of facts) that his boat's 10'5" beam up top means it should have a 1" at a minimum diameter, but had to say a 7/8" might work because it had for 15 years prior - but no less than stainless steel and I recommend against 7/8 highly.  At this point I have $3400 of his money, spent 2 calendar days doing nothing but working on it less the doctor mess, and a pile of $400 trash along with another $500 in materials sitting in my shop waiting for the job (drum of strataglass, cases of zippers, etc).  Refund was out of the question at this point but i wanted to cut and run from this job in the worst way so I considered it.  The only thing that stopped me was knowing it would weigh on me forever to quit this job when it wasn't I who failed alone, but also because the marina would give me the boot and bring in someone else to do his job and all of their jobs.

In my email I quoted him the costs of replacing his frame with 7/8 stainless and 1" stainless frames, again highly recommending 1".  I offered my labor as free, and aside from a markup on materials to cover shipping that was TBD, it was a legit cost.

I also stated the following demands: Your boat goes in the water in the fall after I'm done with it, my availability and the weather determine the start date. "I will give you top billing in the spring, but if we get freakishly warm weather in March - if I'm in the middle of 13 jobs that week I can't drop what I'm doing to start your boat. I will plan for mid April and be done before the end of April.  Your enclosure that is up now (and left up over the winter) will be removed and never installed again so your boat will be exposed while i work on it, possibly during rain if I get a rain day.  You have covers for everything but a ship to shore and CD player - either you need to ask me to make covers for these or make your own, but I'd prefer you come up with a plan to cover your boat should rain come into play as I cannot be responsible for damage to an old boat that was originally designed to be left uncovered and I suspect it now is not up to the task without ruining your interior."

OVER A MONTH LATER I got a reply from the customer stating he would go with a 7/8" frame, wanted to reuse the hardware from his current frame (unknown whether its aluminum or stainless but looks stainless and the style i dislike since it has one set screw, etc) and would pay for half the frame expecting me to cover the other half in addition to free labor or give him a check back to him for $3400.  I went from losing sleep over this job to worrying about my blood pressure.

I took my time replying as every time i thought about the job i got sick basically and could not compose myself enough to reply politely.  Finally I agreed to it because I felt it was my fault (I'm sure some of you will disagree, but I sold him a top that his frame could not support due to inexperience in my mind).

In January I'm at a boat show with a gathering afterward by a bunch of people from a local boating site I advertise / participate on the forum with.  Later that night a future customer of mine who I've been talking with for months about redoing two of his boats in the spring is drunk enough to tell me Customer is bad mouthing me because he has doubts in my ability to do his job which I can see his point of view on.  Negative publicity is something I've never had and I'd prefer to keep.  I took the time to see his point of view, realized when my parent's kitchen install was botched earlier that month, the company went out of their way to make them happy and I felt I should have offered more up front to him after I botched his job.  I contacted him and told him I wanted this bad memory to turn into a happy experience so I was going to give him the entire frame free of charge like an idiot.  He bacame happy. I told him to let me know when the boat is out of winter storage mode and ready to have work started as soon as the weather was nice.

Three weeks ago I got a call saying "It was nice weather down here, was hoping to see you this weekend at the marina" from Friend who also said "My boat is going in this weekend, Customer's is going in right after me."  So much for me setting up the terms.  Nice weather was 50 degrees at 3 PM and 35 at 9 AM by the way, not Seamark weather. Customer gets a call reminding him of our deal about me setting the launch date and I said I planned to start the job 4/19 weather permitting.

Weather did not exactly permit so I picked up the frame, brought it home, and with measurements mocked up the frame mounts to build this top in my shop with the heat cranked way up.  Enter personal tragedy - I have a 93 year old grandmother who means more to me than just about anyone in this world who is dying of throat cancer just detected while she was in a rehab facility for a broken him she somehow did not die from.  She was given a month to live and my family decided we wanted her to live it out with family, not in a home, so we all chip in and take turns being with her all week long in addition to the therapists / visiting nurses to make sure she's comfortable and as odd as it sounds, still doing rehab to walk better despite not having much time left to walk.  That takes priority over anything else in my life right now - if a family member has something come up, I fill in for them and work overnight instead so i can help.  As if that wasn't bad enough, my fiancee's 28 year old cousin who has been battling Lukemia for 8 years now and was free and clear 18 months ago went into remission a while back and is not losing the battle.  She had to rush to intensive care to say goodbye to him and he's now in a medically induced comma until his brother can return from Afghanistan to say goodbye before they pull the plug on his ventilator.  Personally life could not become more complicated between being there for my family and being there for her as she deals with her personal tragedy.  with all the above in mind - I got next to nothing done last week and my goal of wrapping up this job today led to the frame in pieces in my shop as I type this.

To make matters worse, the egg on my face is worsened by the fact that this frame was 7/8" stainless steel, but thin wall which I didn't know existed.  I had ordered everything to make the new frame and now  I had to pay outrageous amounts of money to get 1" sent overnight so I could start the next morning - but never did because of personal issues above.

Rain hit and hit hard Sunday afternoon and Monday.  I called Customer yesterday to begrudgingly told him I would not be finishing the job by early this week but instead late this week and while I hated to share my personal life with him, told him why.  He ignored the "excuses" and said his boat is getting water damage inside his boat because he went down that day in the rain to find his seat covers blown off, radio still exposed (he was there Monday when I took the top off and shared my concerns about the "exposed" top again saying "it should be fine, its marine equipment and the deck is designed to get wet - nothing a bag over the radio won't cover to be safe" to which I asked if he had any bags because I did not).  Oh yeah, and that his interior was getting water stains.  All not my problem in my mind.

He hauls off on me telling me there has been countless beautiful days which he knows because he's a roofing contractor and needs nice weather himself and he's tired of my excuses.  Calling two dying family members excuses has me wanting to throw his entire job into the river and telling him to take me to court if he wants to test my contract's strength if he wants to pull out of his job now.  I'm going to be lucky to break even on all the materials I've wasted and given away, and this guy is pissed because a roofer who knows what it means to remove a roof from a house with rain on the way means damage can occur and it was clearly stated that its his responsibility to protect his boat, not mine - I'm not making a free flybridge cover because his boat can't keep water out since he drilled too many holes in it.

At this point I want to finish this job for my personal reasons - I slipped into a depression over the winter after this job went so bad in the fall and have waited for spring ever since to get the job done, I need to finish it for myself regardless of the costs and losses.  I hate to say it, but there will be a funeral announced later this week, and if I get the reaction I got yesterday I'm likely to have legal problems if I'm face to face with this man again when it happens.  The marina is going to kick me out as soon as the job is done and replace me without a doubt so there is no rainbow at the end of this story, but I need this for me.  If I thought I could live with this failure I'd hand him back his junk enclosure, the materials I have here for it, and whatever is left after materials of his $3400 and tell him good luck finding a person to touch it before July just to show him the disrespect he deserves after treating me the way he has.  Saying over and over "I"m sick of your excuses, I just want my top done. I just want my top done, and I want it done now."  Replying with "[Customer], if you want I'll make your top tonight in the dark and rain and finish it tomorrow in 38 degree weather in the morning to meet your demands. But don't even think about calling me in 80 degree weather when it sags like an old horse or dare to bad mouth my work since you demanded it be done today.  Apparently because you make roofs, you know canvas so pardon my excuses - I'll be sure to call you and ask you to make a roof to my specs instead of yours and see if you'll sell me a job you know will fail like you're asking me to do for you.  I'm losing thousands of dollars on your job in addition to wasting time where I could be making thousands on other customers.  The weather and my availability have kept me from starting this sooner.  Severe personal problems have interrupted my progress over the last week which you have called excuses and I will not tolerate that a second time so do yourself a favor and stop talking the next time you think to start.  If you want me to even consider finishing your job, change your tune now and show a little empathy so I can get out of bed tomorrow and resume work on your boat instead of starting on the 29 jobs behind it right now.  I'm going to end this conversation before you say something I cannot ignore which will lead to me handing back a pile of raw materials and the balance of your deposit if there is anything left at this point before wishing you good luck finding someone to finish it this week like I will before also telling you I'll be more than happy to waste your time and mine in court should you feel you'd deserve the remainder of your deposit back or a dime for interior damage you're claiming to have despite not having covered the boat with a tarp today after seeing it when there if you'd like to take that route with me.  I will be in touch when it is time to collect your balance.  Goodbye"

I've shamefully changed my avatar on the forum as of posting this story - but I am beside myself with how badly this job has gone and how terrible this guy is treating me.  I don't want to throw a pile of documented emails back in his lap, but I'm probably going to have to.  I'm praying this man calls with a cool head today and apologizes so I can work on his job without swearing about it all day long. 

I believe I've pointed out all of my faults in this job, but if i missed a few please tell me what else I did wrong so I never do it again.  I realize you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try, but I've never had a customer who wasn't 100% satisfied and I think I'm hanging on to that track record when I should let it go after two great years of having it.

Thanks for reading it if you made it this far... I needed to vent before I explode and the ladies and gentleman of this forum have been the best sounding board on the planet in the past.  Now, I'm off to find the thread about health and working too hard before I give myself an early funeral and continue to ignore my life for everything other than what absolutely cannot be ignored. Aside from health issues, its been all work - my fiancee has been understanding, but my wedding is in July and I haven't seen where it is, who is marrying us, who is catering it, or just about any other detail because I haven't made time to do it - I'm busy trying to pay for it.

Greg

[Can-Vas]

Greg;

My advice (for what it's worth), is cut your losses - even if you have to take a loss financially in returning his deposit.
You're never going to satisfy this guy now - and I can see a lot more headaches ahead.  Get out of it as best you can and chalk it up as valuable experience; albeit a bad one.

Howard

[Peppy]

Yikes! Cut and run sounds like good advice to me. Hard to get that WOW effect back.

I had a very similar customer a year ago. Very demanding/particular/knowitall-ie. i believe the Latin term is Dickhead. I just today finished his job in fact. It's hard to make them go away. Although because of the job we got three more bigger boats. He always bitched about it but his neighbors all saw the job and got one of their own.

[Mike8560]

So Greg Did he call today? I wouldnt blame you is you quit at this point.

You asked what you could do differently next time. it sounded like you were trying to patter with the sea mark i cold weather.
Me id patttern the entire job top and windows with patterning material. ive never had a temp issue using my prefered 6 mil shrinkplastic. Wind and rain are the only problems. then make the parts in the warm shop and only worry abour temp when intalling your snaps on the windows.

[JuneC]

Yep - Peppy and Howard are right - wiggle out of it and take your lumps.  Your blood pressure/sanity will thank you for it later.  BUT, like you, most of us are in this because we want to be.   A little bit of us goes into every job we do - we're not assembling microwaves coming down the line.  That first unsatisfied customer is REALLY hard to take.  Take it from me - the sting of defeat will ease with time.  Don't see it as a sign of failure - it's a sign that all of us on this planet are different (thankfully).  You and this customer are on different wavelengths.  What you see as best efforts are to him just mediocre attempts.  Let him go frustrate another canvas guy- if he can find one. 

Do NOT worry about the marina and their giving their work to someone else.  If he's so difficult in dealing with you, he's difficult with other vendors at the marina.  He probably has a reputation you're not aware of and his bi^%hing will not change your relationship with them.  If it does, they will eventually figure him out and realize it wasn't you in the first place.  Sounds like you have lots of work waiting so concentrate on pleasing the customers who appreciate all your efforts.  If 9 out of 10 customers rave about your work, it'll be obvious to even the disinterested observer that the one who complained is just a whiner.


Juen

[Geech]

For my personal stupid reasons, I'm going to finish the job if I can.   I am midway through another job at the marina and because of not wanting to burn that customer, I need to maintain peace there at least until customer #2's job is done.  All I have to do at his boat is make seat covers for his new upholstery I'm delivering and make carpet runners.  Today, it is under 60 again and windy so Seamark is not being fitted at the boat so I'm going to work on customer #2 job. 

Mike, I have yet to learn to pattern canvas - I only know the "canvas fit" method taught at Northcoast which is clearly a weakness in my skillset by not knowing how to do it both ways and have the flexibility.

I have setup the frame in my shop which is taped and ready to fit behind me so I could either spend the day working in a heated shop hoping like hell I got the measurements off the boat 100% before I spend the day making the front top and finish the aft extension (5th bow frame & canvas that attaches to this one to give him the length), windows at the boat tomorrow through Saturday.   The rookie in me wants to take it to the boat and fit it there, but its simply too cold and windy to try the canvas fit method today.  I should go down and work on job #2 at the same marina but I fear running into customer #1 and him saying one word to me about working on a job other than his.  Regardless of what I'm doing when I see the guy, if the man says a word to me other than to apologize, I'll have no problem dropping the tools in the tool bag and the parts / pieces of his job right where they land and walk away from it for good while marching straight to the checkbook to refund 100% of his deposit which I'll return with along with the pile of torn canvas and twisted metal he started with and let him deal with finding someone to make his enclosure for him before July.

The marina owner is one of the nicest I have ever met. When we first met and I asked permission to work at her marina she said "I could charge you to work here, but i won't.  All I ask is you treat my customers the best you possibly can.  If you can't start a job for a month I don't care, just tell them.  Return their phone calls and do the best job you can and you can work her as long as you'd like."  The other night as I covered this a-hole's boat in the pouring rain after driving an hour and purchasing tarps, she asked me why I'm stressing out over this guys job so much, but I think that will change if I drop it.  Regardless, you're correct in saying I need to focus on the happy customers instead of taking this guys sh*t before I have more unhappy customers courtesy of his nonsense.  I'm hanging on to the job because I think it will haunt me for not finishing it after how long its been a thorn in my side - this nightmare started 6 months ago and has been on my mind every day just about... I need the closure I believe, I couldn't care less about the guy or what he says after the job is done at this point.  Any gripe will simply be met with "You'd complain if it were free wouldn't you?"  After all, so far a good chunk of it is...

THANK YOU!

Thank you yet again for all the advice - I'm going to have to at least pick up the videos for learning the other pattern method sooner than later and possibly find a way to come to Florida in the winter to learn it in person so this kind of thing is not a problem.

[Peppy]

Don't know if this'll open old wounds, but I've though about this all summer. Last August I put on this boat top,



Bad picture but a very nice, very big top. It's seamark. I put it on from 9am till noon. It was about 18C in the very hot sun. This year, every single morning you can go down and see the wrinkliest ugly enclosure untill about 9-10 in the morning.



It only looks nice when it gets to the temperature it was when I fit it. Add to that the 'seamarks' that grow on the inside of the stuff leads me to the conclusion-

Seamark sucks.

[Mike8560]

the top looks good in that pic. ive seen canvas all wrinkled around a vinyl window that was shrunk from the cold was that the prob? ivre used sea mark on my boats here but its always hot  ;D I never used it up north and here i obnly do because sinbrella ive seen it mist inside wiht the heavy rains we get . I never saw it do that untill I moved to Florida either.

[Peppy]

Here on georgian bay even in August it rarely goes above 15C at night. On the water anyway. It's a very large, very deep, very cold lake. It moderates the temperature a LOT. Mostly making us cold. Although last year the first frost on us by the water was late November.

I think thats what does it. 10C at night 30C at noon. I guess I could have put it on at night then in the sun it'd be all droopy drawers. I know that if I make any tops like this in storage I'll wait till sprIng to install them 

[Mike8560]

I was making cover sled trailors at a time usi g herculite. I tried some stuff called coverlight from unitex now gone anyway it was a vinyl coated polyester and when it got cold iit would sag and tighten when it warmed just the opposite of wwhat I was used to