Written contracts

[sofadoc]

We've talked about them before. Many of you have carefully worded contracts that you make the customer sign. They spell out every last detail, so there is no misunderstanding about what the customer should expect for the price they pay.

I just paid $11K for a new roof on my building. The contract promised a 5 year warranty on workmanship.

The previous roof was a polyurethane foam. It had performed well for over 30 years. I was starting to get a few leaks during winter freeze thaws.

The guys that installed the new roofing covered it with the rubber/asphalt sheeting. They fuse the seams together with a blow torch. Everything was fine.....until it rained.

It turns out they covered over the old foam roof. The old foam expanded underneath when the sun came out. And it pushed the seams apart on the rubber sheeting.

They have been back twice (after 2 rains) and patched where the seams are pulling apart. Next rain.....more leaks.

I've talked to a lawyer. Even with a written guarantee, he can't promise that I'll win in court. Even if I do win, all that means is that there will be a judgement against him on the books. It doesn't mean I'll see any money.

My other option is to go on every possible website and give them a terrible review. That doesn't put any money back in my pocket either.

This roofing business has a very good longstanding reputation in the area. But a new owner has recently bought the business from the previous owner. So the previous reputation means nothing now.

If I sue him and win, or if I just give him bad reviews, he'll just re-open next week under a new name.

This is why I don't put much emphasis on written contracts for my business. They aren't worth the paper they're printed on. They only work with reputable people. And if you're dealing with reputable people, you don't need contracts.

[SteveA]

I don't use an over technical contract. If something I do isn't right I'll address it.  On the bottom of my receipt for the last 35 years it just states " I acknowledge the work was done satisfactorily and our residence + personal property were not damaged during the pick up / delivery.

I realize he's patched but have you asked him to do it over ?  I guess I would get another estimate for a do over from another company and I'd have no hesitation going to small claims court for the highest amount allowed.  Lawyers are expensive if you sue for the whole amount just to chase money that you feel badly about already.  You may not get reimbursed but I'd go to small claims court anyway if he doesn't step up.

I've had friends tell me when you do a roof have an agreement to pay in stages and the last payment after a few storms.  Did that neighbor next door to you cause grief while the roofers were working there ? 
SA

[baileyuph]

What Steve says - would or could be worth the effort.

Anyway, what would it cost to get correction to what has been done, a small or hefty amount?

Doyle

[kodydog]

Like Steve said, go to small claims court and get the judgement. Then put a lean on any property he owns. Sometimes this will get an immediate response but other times you may have to wait years till he sells that property to get restitution. The roofing industry is full of sleazy characters. You have to be really careful.

Flat roofs are a pain but I've heard a lot of good things about the polyurethane roofs. I never thought about what happens when it needs to be replaced? Can a polyurethane roof be removed? I always thought adding a slight pitch and going with metal would be the best bet.

[sofadoc]

Yes, the old polyurethane roof could've been removed. He just chose not to. The walls of my building extend 5 feet above my roof. And my building butts up against another taller building with windows. So a metal roof would be difficult to configure. Plus there are city ordinances requiring that buildings in the downtown district remain true to the original architecture. There a few metal roofs downtown, but it practically takes an act of Congress to get a permit.

[gene]

A benefit to a written contract is that it should spell out the specifics about what the work to be done will be. It can at least eliminate claims of verbal agreements and verbal details.

I use Estimates for all my jobs and don't receive a job unless I give an Estimate. I don't know if it would function as a legal document in court but it does specify exactly what I am going to do.

I delivered a sofa recently to the most exclusive neighborhood in SW Ohio. In talking to the homeowner about dealing with contractors and thieves and Life Lock, he said that you will get ripped off more than once. All you can do is make sure you only loose a little, and not a lot.

gene

[Mojo]

Dennis:

My course of action would be working directly with your contractor to come up with a solution.
I would not mention law suits or anything else along those lines. Once you threaten someone with a law suit it typically has the opposite effect that you were looking for. Instead, negotiate with him on a friendly basis ( even if it goes against everything you believe in ). If this doesn't work let me know. I can always send Guido and Luigi down to discuss the situation with him.

I had a lawyer in Michigan who was ruthless. All the lawyers in the area hated him and could not stand going to court against him because he always won. He was a tall good looking guy who commanded a presence as soon as he walked into the court room. The judges loved him as he was very technical with the law, did his research and was always on point. He made the other lawyers look like stooges. He told me once " there are few contracts made that I cannot find a hole in that will allow you to wiggle out of ".

As you stated, contracts can be argued to the point to where any money you could have recovered goes directly to the lawyers fighting them. My advice is sit down with the guy, be cordial and show a willingness to work out the problem. It is going to be your cheapest and most headache free alternative. I would even offer him a couple more grand to rip out the old roofing and re-apply the new roof again. $ 2 K is still going to be cheaper then suing and not getting anything for your efforts.


Chris

[sofadoc]

I would not mention law suits or anything else along those lines. Once you threaten someone with a law suit it typically has the opposite effect that you were looking for. Instead, negotiate with him on a friendly basis

That has exactly been my approach so far. I've been very cordial with him.

I inspected my roof this morning. Still another seam that they have already patched multiple times has split open.

I know that once I get ugly with him, I'm on my own to sue him and/or pay someone else to do the whole roof over.

The bottom line is........coming out and smearing a little tar on the seams every time they bust open is just not getting it.

It rains........I catch 50-100 gallons of water in big trash cans.........they come out after the rain quits and spend about 10 minutes patching the latest breach.

It has got to the point now that I have to call him from a number that he doesn't recognize just to get him to answer the phone.

[baileyuph]

Oh no!  Talk about a rock and a hard place!

I wonder if he would answer the question "what would he do different next time"?

That is a bunch of water, to say the least.

Feel for you,

Doyle

[Mojo]

Good Gawd Dennis. I would be livid. I had no idea you had that bad of a leak. That is a whole lot of water.

Do these guys have to be licensed ? Did your roof have to be inspected ? They have to pull permits here to put down any type if new roof including re-shingle jobs. While you can get by without permits your always better off pulling a permit for this type of work as insurance companies will research
the age of roofs off the permits.

Chris

[brmax]

In this Roof business do they use a consultant person in the project, Im asking because some do and I'm just curious.
These persons are usually first to contact you in depth of your project and finishing with a final inspection yet are in fact consultants of or to the company doing work, sometimes known or not depending on their own arrangements. They sometimes look and act as a Forman or higher level and on the job sometimes daily.
Just checking an avenue here to possibly help you, because Industrial companies I have seen do this.

[sofadoc]

There was no consultant. I dealt straight with the owner of the roofing company. They've been in business locally for over 30 years, but a new owner recently took over.

He has acknowledged now that he can't keep patching the seams. The roof must be torn off and done over. And this time, the old foam must be removed. Since removing the old foam wasn't part of the original bid, he's feeling me out to see how much I'd be willing to chip in toward the redo. I've told him to crunch the numbers and get back with me. Like Chris suggested, I'd be willing to kick in a few thousand in order to settle this matter without any litigation. But I suspect that he is going to want more than that.

We'll see. I keep you guys posted.

[sofadoc]

Well here's the follow-up.

I paid him another $7000 to completely tear everything off and start over. So an $11K roof ended up costing me $18K.

The first time, the crew consisted of 4 tired-ass white guys that did a really sloppy job. The roof looked more like the surface of the moon when they got done. They crammed all their scraps into other business's dumpsters. I took an ass chewing on their behalf from all the neighboring store owners. And my gutters and downspouts were completely clogged (with their debris). So even if they had done a good job, there was nowhere for the water to go. They played dumb every time I tried to say anything to them.
The original contract said that flashing would be installed. All they did was smear tar with their hands everywhere that you would normally have flashing. Water was ponding everywhere between all the "moon craters".

This time, a big crew of hard-working Mexicans did a first-rate professional looking job. They left everything clean enough to eat off of. The roof is smooth as a baby's butt. And even though none of them spoke English fluently, they understood way more of it than the white guys.

Maybe I'm bragging too quickly. We haven't had a rain yet. And we're at the point here in Texas where it may be several weeks before we see any more significant rainfall. But so far, so good.

Me and the roofer are still on good terms (mainly because I don't want to say anything that will jeopardize my 10 year warranty). So while I won't be giving him any negative reviews on websites, I certainly won't be recommending him either.

[SteveA]

That's a burden that's been lifted.  How the heck could he charge that much when it was his fault to begin with.  The only thing more rotten then what he did was if you now sued him for the extra cost.  It's not in you to do that - me either.
SA

[brmax]

Hey that's great to here the finishing of the project, eliminates many a worries Im sure.
Might seem odd to some but very much the same in my location, and my youngest was a 2nd grade tudor to first graders in English many years ago and continued though different classes in k-12.
I drove around once an Engineer boss of mine talking about the promoting of a good friend and coworker, the professional reply was he couldn't speak fluently I strongly and with visuals of the crew responded there you see, whos is running your job.
He was promoted very soon after.
Some task in life one needs a group with very little spoken words to get something done greatly.

good lesson for all of us in the world, thanks  it takes a big person to tell a story like that.