Bobbin wrap - What is the most likely contributor?

[baileyuph]

Over time reading here, the subject of bobbin wrap has come up and seems there is a correlation of it and top loading machines.  Example(s);  the 111W155 and Consew 225.

I ask this question because I have this machine as well as several others and on occasion my top loader did offer bobbin wrap, primarily on start up. 

BTW, the top loader type I have used for many years and it is a favorite, if you will.  Not all have been bobbin wrap guilty.

This issue was on my mind and after studying a mechanics manual on the machine, a thorough examination to insure tensions settings and alignments to verify such on my machine I believe it has paid off; no wrap. 

With that short background I thought my understanding might be enhanced of this issue by seeking others have learned that might point to the main cause(s). 

I made a couple of adjustments on my top bobbin loader and spend some time trying to cause bobbin wrap but couldn't. 

I should have brought the name of the manual I worked from (its at the business) for it surely will be of interest.

Like explained, anyone with some good experience on this subject would be interesting.

Doyle

[baileyuph]

This can be a tough question, I called a professional service business, they put in a new hook and something else, can't remember.  But, that didn't help.

This wrapping isn't a design problem, I used these machines for years without the problem.  It does seem to be something technical that maybe some do not understand.

I found a manual and am memorizing it, LOL.  Actually, there are a couple points made that I do know were not addressed.  Gotta get to the bottom of this, top loaders are not inheriently a problem, like I said, they do and can work.  It is easy to trash something in defense of not understanding.  I sewed too many miles without a problem on a 111W155, it was a very reliable and great sewing machine.  Years ago, I read that the bottom loader, like everything else in society was replacing the top loader because it was cheapr to build.

When this cold weather gets better with clear roads (too icy under a foot of snow now) I am going to improve my service procedure using this great tech manual and maybe a dummy like me will learn something.

As they say;  "nothing is hard if you know the answer".  I like that one.  Sometimes a lot of truth in this.

Stay warm everyone,

Doyle

[baileyuph]

After spending hours reviewing the tech manual, I had the opportunity to tear into my Consew 225 (essentially a copy of the 111W155, 156 etc, also Consew 226), yesterday.

I removed the hook, disassembled the upper arm shaft, wire reinforced belt (not the motor pully belt), and just about everything around the needle plate/feed dog and more, attacking issues that might be related to bobbin wrap.  I knew, being inexperienced at this, it would consume time and it did.  After two hours, applying manual instructions and gathering deeper understanding in the process, I put everything back together, setting to spec.  When I got done, there were no left over parts on the work table and after head was hooked up in table, it actually worked!!!!

The machine had a different sound, sounded like a new machine and the wrap was gone!!!

The key was understanding every word in the manual.

This experience is recommended for anyone with a vertical axis bobbin machine that is a knock-off of the 111W series Singer.  I had to go through this after having two or was it three tech guys, making their living in this work, tasked to resolve this issue of "bobbin wrap".   I learned just how technical these industrial machines can be and how important for them to be set up right.

Doyle

[sofadoc]

So, do you know what SPECIFICALLY was the culprit? Or did you just "take everything apart and put everything back together" to fix the problem?

I don't think I would have the patience.

I know what you mean by the "different sound" of a well-adjusted machine.

[Joys Shop]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bobbin wrap"
but
I have a Consew 225
when I sew slowly, the thread gets caught on the hook
and, of course, the times you slow down is when you are really concerned about getting sewing right
and those are the times the thread gets caught in the hook and causes a mess

the thread doesn't have enough "umph" to get around the bobbin

it happens when I'm trying to draw the bobbin thread up after changing the bobbin too.

I have to give the hand wheel a strong spin to get the thread to loop around the bobbin
Otherwise it only goes half away around, and have to pull the thread out and rethread the needle

[Mike]

you right joy it happened to me somtimes when I slow or pause then a tangle


doyle it has warmed up here considerably
but not enough for me to go out fishing yet . 

[baileyuph]

doyle it has warmed up here considerably
but not enough for me to go out fishing yet .

Yes, Mike,  I was thinking about you just yesterday when I heard the temp down there was going to drop and maybe put some citrus crops in danger.  Mike, you recall the cold you lived with in the NE, well we have had some of the coldest weather in 20 years, like Tim the boat guy explained.  If I could have transitioned to Florida a day or so ago, I probably would have jumped, it was so excruitating.  Today was a wet cold, but I forced myself to go and do some work.  I have a pretty long list of items waiting.

If the Florida offer had included fishing, I might have done the unimaginable.  You guys have the nicest winters, it seems.  Couple that with fishing (learning how for me), I might have touched the "go" button.  I just remembered, we are supposed to get 3 more inches of snow by the end of the week.  Oh well, I got my pride and joy Consew going, like it was when new.  I have a number of other machines but this one is definitely one of my favorites.

What kind of fish do you usually catch Mike?  I went on one of those chartered deep sea fishing trips once, near NY, and we caught fish called Whitings.  That was a way different experience for a guy who fished for crappie in the old river beds and bass along smaller lake banks during spawning season (early April here).  But, deep sea fishing was a learning experience in more ways than one.

Hope it warms up for you Mike,

Doyle

[baileyuph]

So, do you know what SPECIFICALLY was the culprit? Or did you just "take everything apart and put everything back together" to fix the problem?

Yes, it was in essence the timing of the upper arm shaft function with the hock system.  I mentioned that a couple of machine techs worked on it but they check tensions and hook to needle timing only.  They were experienced technicians, but it seems, looking back, that they were in a hurry.  Understadable because I spent considerable time going through the systems myself.  From now on, I won't have to call anyone, except maybe for parts.

I might mention that I had previously, when trying to correct for the problem, gone through all tension systems, seemed to help but eventually wrapping would show up which became frustrating as it effected my production work.  The impetus to "do something" was based on recalling how the machine sewed when new several years ago.  I couldn't give up - so pleased with the situation now.

Joy, your situation sounds just like mine at times.  First I checked all tension functions, upper thread, lower thread bobbin.  In the check, I verified whether there were parts required in these checks.  Then, the take up lever spring tension was reviewed.  Here you not only check tension strength, tension duration is equally important.  You would think that is simple to do, it is, but only after you have the answer for how to do it.

The timing of the lower hook, was next checked.  Then, the head was pulled and turned over.  Here I learned about the timing of the upper arm system with the lower hook system, I noted it was off.  This out of time situation led previous machine guys to try compensating by making adjustments to the hook timing, they got close but it still led to the problems you expressed. 

Like said, good experience, it led to needle centering in the feed dog plate, adjusting pressure feet lift height and feet pressure on feed dog plate.

The clincher was finding the timing check discussed above off.  Part of that was contributed to the hand wheel belt being off. 

It was worth the effort!!

If I can help, I will try.

doyle   

[Mike]

What kind of fish do you usually catch Mike?  I went on one of those chartered deep sea fishing trips once, near NY, and we caught fish called Whitings.  That was a way different experience for a guy who fished for crappie in the old river beds and bass along smaller lake banks during spawning season (early April here).  But, deep sea fishing was a learning experience in more ways than one.

grouper snapper and mackerel and sharks

ive fished offshore mostly doyle till I moved to a canal in the harbor here ive been setting my boat up for inshore fisbing around the mangroves for snook and redsish  but after the move ive been so busy remodeling my house and recovering my health I havkt had the time needed to devote my time seriously to it so I have done best with sharks in the harbor and catfish and sheepheads of my dock


sharkbait



baby spinner shark




heres a  old pic of my 0sn with a sheepshead

[baileyuph]

Joy,

What you describe is pretty similar to my fixed problem, I would keep trying to sew and the thread would start wrapping around the lower part of the bobbin case.  To sew, I took a seam ripper and picked the thread out, then when clean it would sew.  But, like yours, the slowing, the stopping and starting would bring the problem back.

On yours, it might pay to run your hand over the bobbing hook where it seems to hang up to check for any metal burrs the thread might be catching on. 

I am convinced, it can be fixed Joy.  I bought my machine new and the first 10 or 15 years it sewed without a glitch.  Then, I had it worked on a couple times for some reason, can't remember, but it never was perfect again.  It sure is sewing nice now, reminds me of the good old days!

If you find any burrs let me know.

Doyle

[sofadoc]

Years ago, I sewed on a Juki 562. My Grandmother (who started the business) was still alive at the time. She still did some sewing for us in her 80's.

I never, ever, ever, ever had one moment of trouble with that machine. Never had bobbin wrap......ever.

It would take my Grandmother exactly one nanteenth of a second to achieve the "mother of all bobbin wraps". She was used to her old 16-188, and no other machine would suit her. Sometimes, I think that she got the thread tangled up on purpose (trying to coax me in to dragging the old Singer out of storage).

She insisted the Juki was the biggest POS ever made.

[Lo]

Great info Doyle . . . too bad you don't live closer I would bring you my machine for a go round with your new found skills  :D

My question is if you have such a detailed manual is it in a digital format that could be posted and shared? I have found some manuals online but they are general versions for end users not technician level. I too have had some bobbin wrap problems and would love to refine my Consew as well . . . seems my issue is when shifting from forward to reverse and back again.

Marlo

[jojo]

I have a bottom loader, and had a problem with bobbin wrap. I noticed it was happening shortly after changing the bobbin. So I adjusted my winder to stop winding a bit sooner and haven't had the problem since.

[baileyuph]

Marlo,

My tech document is in print, it was printed probably about the time the machine was manufactured.  It is technical, for sure.  I read it over and over, each time understanding a bit more. 

From others on the site, there may be some good technicians in the business, problem is they are there and we are here or they just retired! 

Bobbin back in the Eastern area has remarked she has one great tech guy, she is lucky.

In my area, there were a number of them several years ago, I don't know who I would call and trust today and this is a relatively large city.

Doyle

[baileyuph]

Years ago, I sewed on a Juki 562. My Grandmother (who started the business) was still alive at the time. She still did some sewing for us in her 80's.

I never, ever, ever, ever had one moment of trouble with that machine. Never had bobbin wrap......ever.

It would take my Grandmother exactly one nanteenth of a second to achieve the "mother of all bobbin wraps". She was used to her old 16-188, and no other machine would suit her.

Oh!, Dennis you sized that one right, that 16-188 (also my first machine) was a real hammer.  Your grandmother was right also, but you know, she could get performance out of that machine that others couldn't because she knew it.  They were very strong machines, much simpler to deal with (relative statement because they too have specs).  On my 16-188 the best thing I could do for it was keep it oiled and threaded, it would hammer all day.  It had/has a needle range about the same as the machines we all use, a big one or a very small one depending on what you were going to sew and thread required.  I actually made convertible tops (auto) with my 16-188.  Put a bigger needle in and grab heavier thread (treated cotton mostly back then some nylon) and go at it.  I am with your grandmother on that one, drop of oil and go!  Parts were cheap for them also.

The Juki 562, you reference is one sweet machine.  The 563 is also; you know most of those old Singers/Japanese machines/Pfaff are all great machines.  Any machine can present a problem, but the intrinsic quality there is about as good as it gets.

Readers should understand that the info we are giving is based on our experience, if one wishes to endeavor in leather work, for example; when I say leather I refer to saddle, harness, and shoes, then please understand - someone like Darren is the "man".  They are a different breed of machines, because from his remarks and what I read, they were great then (when built) and still are unsurpassed today, in many respects!  Maybe Darren can come on line and talk about those machines and the different type of beds they have.  That, which can be a very interesting subject, I find those different arms interesting; cylinder, post, and so on.  Why some of the machines Darren talked about in the past, you can sew any direction, a 360 degree direction and never turn the or rotate the leather.  Interesting stuff!  I think he mentioned some the operator powered, no motor.

Putting all that in contrast with todays machine technology (digital) will keep your mind boggled for a good while.  Technology marches on!

Doyle