So which do YOU prefer?

[sofadoc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2scvIFGjE

[JuneC]

Oh man.....  :(

I was going to bring this up in the "Business" forum.  Has anyone analyzed the small business tax credit for buying "group health" for employees?  This year it's 35% of premiums and next year it's 50%.  BUT, as far as I can tell, business owners are excluded. It appears you have to have employees to qualify and that corporate owners are not employees, even though your corporation may give you a W2 at the end of the year. 

I was hoping to buy a small group policy rather than private insurance, but it appears that's off the table without paying full cost with no tax credit, regardless of corporate or personal income.

June

[bobbin]

"Oh man" is right. 

Not knowing that the two are one and the same is about as lame and out of touch as it gets.  Wow. 

[scottymc]

I don't get it, and many people in Australia don't. Why would you not want health care for everyone?

[JuneC]

Scotty, the truth is, we do.  I don't think there's anyone out there who will tell you our system is good as-is.  Our system is broken and I guess we have to start somewhere, but the cost is the biggest issue I believe most people have. 

You can read all about it here... (interesting, since the Heritage Foundation is where this whole idea got started).

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/05/obamacare-tax-subsidies-bigger-deficit-fewer-taxpayers-damaged-economy

Oh, and the marriage penalty - a couple in their 60's, making $62 grand a year combined, divided equally - if they divorce, will get over $11,000 per year in subsidies to buy insurance.  They can still live together and own property together, just do a legal divorce so they can file individual tax returns.  I predict the lawyers doing "quickie" divorces will gain a windfall in the next 6 months.       

But, like I said, we have to start somewhere and I'm sure we'll see lots of fixes over the next few years.

June

[bobbin]

Scotty, the idea of "individual rights" has been played up by the very industries that will benefit most from "free enterprise" (think guns and healthcare).  The notion of the "greater good to society" has been cast as the demon in the shadows... can you guess by whom?  There is an increasingly powerful "lobby" in this country... some of us consider it the 4th branch of our system of government, and they're skilled at using ADVERTISING as the way to strike fear into the hearts of the very people that you saw on the linked YouTube film; people who don't read and "take their news" from cable TV networks and never raise their eyes from the furrow in front of them.   

Cost is a consuming problem.  But those very same people outlined above can't wrap their heads around the notion that ONE system for ALL would instantly level the field.  And they can't wrap their minds around the idea that if EVERYONE pays into the system  the price comes down for all.  Right now, providing insurance coverage for employees is a huge write off for major corporations... so the beneficiaries think of their health care as "free".  And the overwhelmingly powerful lobbyists (bolstered and further enriched by recent Supreme Court rulings) can deluge those very same ignorant voters with messages of "increased taxes".  Of course, none of those voters bothers to do the arithmetic and compares the increase in taxes to whatever they have to pay out of pocket to further fund their health care.  In general, most of them are too ignorant of how their democratic republic operates to see that they're basically voting against their own best interests.     

But there is no way in hell we'll ever rid ourselves of the healthcare lobby in the near future (too much money involved).  We NEED single payer, national health care (for all people and the MILITARY!) and we need to get real and understand that we have to deploy it intelligently... start at the cradle and BUILD good health and be willing to look honestly at what's important in the last years of life.   We can't have it all; we have to make tough choices... will those choices be in favor of a privileged few or for the 50+ million who presently can afford nothing?  The present plan isn't perfect, but at least President Obama did something. 

[Dede]

22 years ago, my Kiwi roommate and I were discussing nationalized healthcare in her country.  I asked how such a program managed to keep costs low when medical malpractice lawsuits were jacking up medical costs in the USA.

She explained that people were allowed to sue only with the permission of the government.  Something had to have gone REALLY wrong for a lawsuit to be allowed to go forward -- the NZ version of medical malpractice reform, which (according to my roommate) was very successful.

As for the USA... is anything changing?  Without some kind of medical malpractice reform HERE, how can a national healthcare program possibly be successful?  This isn't a Republican vs. Democrat issue -- it's a very real bipartisan concern that isn't being addressed.

[sofadoc]

... start at the cradle and BUILD good health

Most kids now live out of a burger sack, or a pizza box.

I recently chaperoned a group of teens at a nice restaurant where they were served a quality meal. Most of them just stared at it. One of them even covered his mouth to hold back the vomit. Much like dogs who've been spoiled by table scraps, these kids don't even recognize nutritious food as something that's even edible. An hour after we left the restaurant, they all wanted to stop at fast food joints. One of them went into a Wendy's, and got  an order of fries, and a Frosty to dip them in. He said that he routinely has this combo as his evening meal.

Childhood obesity is already reaching crisis levels in America. It's only going to get worse.
What can our government do? Outlaw junk food? Ban fast food joints? Good luck with that.

We try to educate kids about proper nutrition, but we can't really be frank with the little darlings, lest we damage their delicate psyche.

You may think that I'm already straying off-topic. But I don't think I am. The best healthcare plan is "Don't get sick". America has got to change our children's eating habits, or they'll all have Diabetes before they hit 30.

[JuneC]

Interesting times we live in...  First the "information" age - most of us saw the birth of the personal computer, and now major social change. 

Well said, Bobbin.  There's no easy answers.  As stated, too much money involved with LOTS of personal agendas on the parts of politicians.  And the way they're behaving now is downright embarrassing.  I'm starting to think they were all raised on Dr. Spock.

Dede, in South Florida, malpractice insurance got so high a huge percentage of the doctors simply stopped carrying it.  I don't have a single Dr. who is insured anymore.  They all have big signs in the lobby (apparently that's the requirement if you are not insured).  If you want to sue them you might get the Mercedes, but not enough cash to retire.

And Sofa's dead on with the unhealthy lifestyles of the kids here.  We don't see too many obese kids in this part of S. Fla (and probably not in S. California either) because it's such a beauty/body conscious society around here.  It has become a rite of passage to get a nose job in middle school.  Bandages and black eyes are worn proudly to school.  But I know it's a serious problem in this country. 

Hang on y'all, it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

June

[Eric]

Scotty, the idea of "individual rights" has been played up by the very industries that will benefit most from "free enterprise" (think guns and healthcare).

I like individual rights

In general, most of them are too ignorant of how their democratic republic operates to see that they're basically voting against their own best interests.

We are not a democratic republic, congo is. And the useless turd, that is currently president of the U.S.A. would fit in well there.
Eric

[JuneC]

Politics aside, did anyone figure out if my assessment is correct that the owners of a small corporation without "regular" employees can not get a tax credit?

June

[MinUph]

  To get back to sofas original post. This is, shall I say disappointing to say the least. To think these grown people don't know that these are the same is disheartening. And yet these same people have strong objections to one or the other not knowing what they are talking about at all.
  Now on to the sidelines of the thread.
  This health care plan is a start. Simple enough. Is it the best we can do? I doubt it. But it is a start. I know many people will say and have said it is not a good thing. Well lets look at this way. Do we want to continue on with the unfairness of healthcare? I for one don't want to. Obama did something about it. I'm not going to say it is the best thing but it is something of a start. I for one would like to see a universal plan something like Canada has in place. How it could be done here is beyond me and most if not all of us here. But it is decent and simple. The people get the care they need, the Dr.s get paid by the government for the services they do and it works. But I digress. We are talking about Obama Care Vs the Affordable Care Act. Which do you prefer? ( Unbelievable ).

[brmax]

thanks Sofadoc, nice infomercial and jimmy should be rewarded.

June i was looking at it also, and its saying based in 2014 you paying 50% of employees premium to get a max 35% credit and it is better with 10 employees with there annual of 25g or less. I just scaned through but it doesnt make sense to me removing the old benifit, maybe they had a typo and meant share holders arent elgible.

Paul im  in agreement with you, its a start of organizing maybe not better for all. but its at least a direction reminds me of my first time manuvering thru a round-a-bout instead of the familar traffic light at home is the US, intimidating at first then pretty darn smooth. well im gonna go back to lookin on that there site.

[sofadoc]

Remember back when liability insurance was NOT required for drivers?

Remember how many people didn't have any?

Remember how those people were outraged when the government took away their freedom to choose, and forced them to provide liability insurance?
Then we took away even more "freedom" when we forced them to buckle their seatbelt. Or go outside to smoke.

If I gave my customers the option of just putting a new cover over the old one, many of them would take that option. Then they would be unhappy with the finished product.

In a perfect world, everyone would have the freedom to make their own decisions. But in that perfect world, those people would make mature, rational decisions that would not only benefit themselves, but others around them.

Unfortunately, many laws that govern our land must protect people from themselves. They can't be trusted to make the right choices on their own. In fact, they can't be trusted to even MAKE a choice at all.

Speaking of choices........I'm still torn between Affordable and Obama :D

[brmax]

I think thats when i got po'd because i had always had the 3,6 or 12 month option to pay.
now it was a monthly option ?? didnt quite make sense, of course you could show your months worth of insurance card to the DMV personell and get a year or more license.

Looks like insurance is going to be under: self employed health insurance deduction. Max limit in a profit year not on an A schedule.  Figure your self employed income, subtract the 50% deduction for self employment taxes, and subtract any retirement contributions made to SEP-IRA, Simple IRA or Keogh plan. The remainder is your allowable deduction for health insurance expense.

Kinda like voting and working, only 50% are doing it that are able.