New guy, binding question

[Grebo]

Hi, I bought the SR as well.
I wanted a machine that I could move about if necessary. For holidays ( yes I am that sad ) visiting friends who always have that 'little' thing that needs fixing. ( dinghy covers / jeep back ) Rest of the time it's set up as my dedicated binder, so it's really earning it's keep. It's also the only heavy weight zig zag I have which has been right handy on occasion.
If you are thinking of trying v138, remember that means less on the bobbin & more changes, doesn't bother me to much as I am a pretty slow sewer anyway, but could be really annoying if you are a bit speedy.
I have also gotten through a few binders & currently I am using the 1" swing away sold by SR, it's been the best so far.
Happy stitching.

Suzi

[islandsewing]

Like Mike, I like the Singer 111W for marine work, though I'm pretty much out of the canvas business, concentrating solely on upholstery.  The Singer works really well for upholstery as well.  I also have a Highlead with reverse that I use exclusively for upholstery.  For some reason I don't like the way it handles canvas.  Every stitcher has their favorite, I guess.

Which island are you on?  I'm from 'Lutra (but been in Florida for lotsa years).  Ya no da vey, eh? 

June

I'm on Abaco. Most of my travels take me to Florida. Never been to 'Lutra but want to some day.

[islandsewing]

Hi, I bought the SR as well.
I wanted a machine that I could move about if necessary. For holidays ( yes I am that sad ) visiting friends who always have that 'little' thing that needs fixing. ( dinghy covers / jeep back ) Rest of the time it's set up as my dedicated binder, so it's really earning it's keep. It's also the only heavy weight zig zag I have which has been right handy on occasion.
If you are thinking of trying v138, remember that means less on the bobbin & more changes, doesn't bother me to much as I am a pretty slow sewer anyway, but could be really annoying if you are a bit speedy.
I have also gotten through a few binders & currently I am using the 1" swing away sold by SR, it's been the best so far.
Happy stitching.

Suzi

I was thinking the same thing when I decided to go with the sailrite. It's portable, can handle most if not all canvas work, and can be a great dedicated binder later on.

[JuneC]

I never had any luck with binders.  The straight binder just couldn't handle an inside curve and the right-angle binder would jam up with Sunbrella binding because it's so stiff off the reel.  I suppose if I opened up the "wings" more the binding would have fed better, but I got so frustrated trying to get it all to work it just sits in a box with odd sewing machine parts I've bought over the years.  I've also seen my share of replacement canvas where the previous sewer didn't catch the edge of the fabric in close enough and there are large sections here and there where the binding has shredded the edge of the fabric and come off.  I just sew binding with a regular foot and no binder. 

And Island, if you know a Sawyer, Russell, Albury or Lowe, you've met one of my cousins ;-)

June

[baileyuph]

This I hope isn't breaking the subject matter, but it relates possibly in that I had a problem sewing what appeared to me to be acrylic.  The problems were at random the seam would knot up, leaving a nasty seam.  Plus, the tension settings on the machine were way off for the material, bottom was too loose (for vinyls the ajustments looked good).

Like I said it looked like arylic material.  I was shortening a relatively large barbeque cover a few inches. 

Oh well, I got it done and examined the seam, it was unaccetable.  Now, I have to figure out if it is the machine adjustments (take up spring or?) or simply the needle was (is) dull.  All happened at the end of the day.  Now, it back to checking the machine out.  The thread used was # 92 poly and needle is #20.  Frustrating!  Oh, my stitch length was about 4 per inch.

The only clue to start with is I need to check take up spring adjustment.  I had been working with that (but it checked out on vinyls - some three layers).

I am not experienced enough with sewing these outdoor acrylics, It can't be the thickness, it is just a grill cover (not boat cover weight IMHO).  The factory used a double needle to turn a 3/4 inch hem which looked fine.

What do you guys think?  Keep it simple for a dummy. 

BTW, wouldn't it be a coincidence if you two were remotely related ( Islanding sewing and June)!

Regarding binders, they can be machined or built to work, but those that do are usually tweeked by special machinist efforts.  In the automotive world they accommodate buityful work.  But, every folder engineer tells me the same, they have to be set up and calibrated, or literally built for the specific materials and machine.  I guess I should qualify that I am referencing right angle binders not a folder.  In past years they were not cheap, ranged from $300 to to something higher.  Well worth it if because if they work, out put is perfect and at a much higher rate.  Something else, to contact one of these type of services one will be advised to ask a current factory who sets up or builds their right angle binders. 

All that is probably worth what you just paid for it!  LOL,  It is common sense that those who make and sell volumes of bound older car OEM type carpets do it with perfection and fast.  So, there must be something to what I have experienced and been told.

Problem regarding precision attachments, is it is like new furniture, those who go to buy "price" drives everything.  Apparently that can lead to disappointments in obtaining equipment, same as it does in procuring new furniture.  It is for the most part a bit of "junk" but it is also cheap.  Don't miss read me, new furniture is also produced from higher technology but other things they have to do to meet prices does take out quality. (different subject I know)

Doyle

[islandsewing]

And Island, if you know a Sawyer, Russell, Albury or Lowe, you've met one of my cousins ;-)

June

I'd say there's a pretty good chance we're related. My family is full of Lowes, Sawyers, some Russells and possibly Alburys. I'm not really up to date on it. I meet people all the time who say, you look like so and so, are you related? Yes? I'm your cousin or great aunt, etc.

[bobbin]

DB, thoughts on your stitching conundrum: 

A 20 needle and 92 thread seams like major overkill on a suspected acrylic that isn't boat/awning weight, also way too long a stitch for a good result on a lighter weight fabric.  Walking foot machines can "eat" lighter weight goods if the needle and thread aren't properly sized and the stitch length isn't shortened.  For yuks, perhaps you could thread up with 69 and an 18 needle and play around with tension settings on a scrap of the fabric.  I've also found that lighter thread prefers a looser tension... not sure, but suspect that it has to do with the "walk" of the feed mechanism which can force too much cloth under the needle too rapidly. 

I'm working on "slipcovers" for dining room chairs and have taken my Juki walking foot from 138 and a 20 needle to a 16 needle and 46 thread.  I've cut the stitch length considerably and backed the tension on the bobbin case and the top thread off, too.  Results are very good!

[Mike]

But, every folder engineer tells me the same, they have to be set up and calibrated, or literally built for the specific materials and machine.  I guess I should qualify that I am referencing right angle binders not a folder.  In past years they were not cheap, ranged from $300 to to something higher.  Well worth it if because if they work, out put is perfect and at a much higher rate.  Something else, to contact one of these type of services one will be advised to ask a current factory who sets up or builds their right angle binders. 

I have a right angle binder that I don't use isn't it just a folder also as it folds in a different way?

[bobbin]

I think we need to specify the difference between a "folder" and a "binder".   

To me, a "folder" is an attachment that neatly folds something in half over the raw edge of the fabric that is fed through it.  Therefore, pre-fold binding is fed through a folder.  I have a 3/4" right angle swingaway folder (it folds pre-fold acrylic binding over the raw edge of the work).

A "binder" is a specialized folder that is designed to take a bias run of goods (with 2 raw edges) and not only fold it in  half but ALSO fold the raw edges under so the finished bound edge is neat, clean, and finished.  I have a right angle binder that will take 1 1/2" raw bias and fold both raw edges under while at the same time fold the bias in half over the raw edge of the piece I wish to bind.  This sort of set up is generally "dedicated"; to get a good result you usually have to have a feed dog that permits the binder to be set into the machine bed.  And you generally  have to have a presser foot that is cut away to allow the folder to be nestled in close to the needle.     

I am fussy about terms (not news to any of you) but using the proper terminology makes it easier to describe what you have, what you wish to have, and it's easier for the rest of us the help when something isn't quite right. 

[baileyuph]

Regarding the screw up on the large barbeque grill, I want to go back and insure the machine is set up properly.

I wish the material could be shown to you guys.  It is not real thin and relatively stiff.  Am I ok to call it acrylic?  I am not the one to ask on some of these outside covers.  Let me check some things on my machine and get back on what happens.

This thing about binders and folders.  My experience is auto trim.  You don't use a folder on carpet.  A special engineered binder, the better the engineering better results or better capability.

Like Bobbin stated, a right angle binder, a very specialized setup, it includes several changes to the machine as well.  Feed plate is unique to the special feed dogs, also feet themselves are of special design.  Much difference between the two for a folder is mounted in front of the machine and folds whatever you want to fold, edge of a shirt for example.  A folder would never do the job of binding automoive carpet.  That job requires "right angle binder" and all the machine modifications being talked about.


If a task of folding a srip of something around an edge of something through a folder, then a folder is being used to apply binding.  Binding usually has one or both edges pre folded.

I can see how there are small differences in understanding.

Doyle


 

[Mike]

Regarding the screw up on the large barbeque grill, I want to go back and insure the machine is set up properly.

I wish the material could be shown to you guys.  It is not real thin and relatively stiff.  Am I ok to call it acrylic?  I am not the one to ask on some of these outside covers.  Let me check some things on my machine and get back on what happens.

This thing about binders and folders.  My experience is auto trim.  You don't use a folder on carpet.  A special engineered binder, the better the engineering better results or better capability.

Like Bobbin stated, a right angle binder, a very specialized setup, it includes several changes to the machine as well.  Feed plate is unique to the special feed dogs, also feet themselves are of special design.  Much difference between the two for a folder is mounted in front of the machine and folds whatever you want to fold, edge of a shirt for example.  A folder would never do the job of binding automoive carpet.  That job requires "right angle binder" and all the machine modifications being talked about.


If a task of folding a srip of something around an edge of something through a folder, then a folder is being used to apply binding.  Binding usually has one or both edges pre folded.

I can see how there are small differences in understanding.

Doyle


 

my bad
I bought this  call a right angle binder with swingaway not shown here   it folds sunbrella 3/4" binding once that has no raw edges they are prefolded and glued. it fold it backwards first then ormal on the canvas easy for inside curve but too awkward for me



ive used for 20 years with easy my suisy style folders also sold as binders from the co it also folds the same pre folded raw edge 3/4" binding once

[baileyuph]

Understandable that using the equipment shown would be awkward.  The equipment can be called just about anything, but to be effective more is required than a piece of folded metal, according to the task of binding old style auto carpets. Manufacturers who did that kind of work, did it with modifications to the machines plus a precision machined right angle binder.  If you insist call it a right angle folder. 

Mike will your equipment reproduce OEM style binded carpet, with 90 degree turns rapidly to perfection.  That equipment is literally amazing.  Understandable thought, manufacturers do things fast and consistant or they are out of business.

I recall a auto/boat upholstery shop a few miles away who spent the money to set up a dedicated binding station with the right angle equipment.  The tech set up service did remove the standard feed dogs, feet, and feed plate on that job and replace it with right angle required equipment.  It wasn't cheap but worth the price to save labor and do the job right on auto restoration and his marine work which included a lot of covers.

The shop owner showed it to me and it was hooked up to a 111W155 Mike.  It was sweet, wish I had it.  I understand he was getting up in age and had to become an employee in the airline restoration work to get health insurance coverage which he needed.  Now, talking about it, his business closed and his brother who had a same type of business about an hour away also went out of business.  I wonder what happened to that equipment, be great if one could track it down.  Their father also spent a career in custom trim work and taught the two boys the trade. 

Oh I just remembered, those specialty machine shop guys who were good at setting up a binding capability on a machine some years ago were located in California.  Can't remember their business title.  It wasn't something you could buy from a magazine.  When they took work, it was much more profitable to service a big manufacturer needing a larger number of workstations set up.

Another name of the past of the same technical service capacity that may or may not be in business today was Tennessee Attachments.

Bottom line if the need is relatively large and must be consistent, they are the go to types, otherwise you aren't going to get there.

Since this has become a discussion, someone with heavy factory work sewing other items, clothing perhaps, might be able to shed more light on this issue.

I have a few folders and they don't help me much,  they are more of one size fits all and have ended up in a drawer.

Doyle