New Machine On the Horizon ??

[Mojo]

I do not want anyone to get the impression that I think Juki's are not good machines because I think they are awesome. But I am working on a deal to trade in my Juki 563n to Bob Kovar for a new Consew 206rb5.

My problem with the Juki is............I simply do not like it. :) How is that for honesty...lol
It is a great machine and has never given me a moment of problems but I cannot get used to the top load set up. I have grown so accustomed to the bottom load Chandler that changing out the bobbin on the Juki seems very foreign and cumbersome.

The Chandler has been an awesome machine and has never given me a problem ( except once when I hit a metal stay rod inside a seat cover I was sewing ). The Consew is identical to the Chandler so all my attachments will fit.

Right now the Chandler is my primary machine where I do the majority of my sewing. The Juki, which I bought used and dirt cheap from a boat factory is set up to do Omega awnings. The Consew will be my new primary machine and the Chandler will be relegated to the Omega awning setups and also will be my wife's machine to do mirror covers, step covers, etc. on. She is taking on more of the sewing for me and recently did a quad slide topper order for me when I was out of town.

I am keeping the servo motor and the new roll around stand from the Juki and basically just swapping heads. (I am getting a new table top with the new Consew). I am going to do the swap in July when I am passing through Bob's area ( Toledo ). I am also dropping my Chandler off and having him go through it and tune it up at the same time.

So it appears a new Consew is on the horizon. Someone is going to get a very nice Juki once Bob is done tuning it up and puts it up for sale. I am excited about the Consew. I have read nothing but good things about them and they seem to be a favorite among stitchers. :)

Chris

[jojo]

Good choice. These are the machines that we used in the Air Force.

[Mike]

All ive ever used is topload singer and juki. Id feel odd losding the bottom do you tilt the machine up with a bottom pan i dont think you could access the. Bottom.

[Mojo]

Mike:

I can actually load the Chandler quicker then I can the Juki. I just load a bobbin and reach under blindly and snap it into place. It is amazing how your sense of feel guides you through it.

I think alot of our comfort with machines is what we learned on and have used for a long time. I learned and used bottom load machines since I started in this trade which is why I prefer them.

The Juki I have is an awesome machine and was made in Japan. I just do not like using it.

Chris

[Mike]

chris my singer and juki  bolth have a metal pan under the head on the table does your chandler not have this so you can load the bobbin?
one thing on my top loades I attach the chepo binders to ta top plate and can remove the top plate put on the pone with a binder reay quick and easy with a bottom load I belive the screw hole are on the machine and you have to swcer it on to the machine bed  for that reasom I always kept with the top loads what type of binder to you use on the chandler?

[Mojo]

Mike:

I keep a welt foot loaded on the Juki. That machine I use to sew my center seams and polyrod on the Omega's. I just changed feet for the wife because she is sewing vinyl mirror covers on the Juki.

The chandler is always set up for straight topper work. I have a swing away binder on it. The binder I have has a big thumb screw on it so I remove the top piece and then leave the frame on it.

I ordered a binder for the juki but it turned out to be the wrong one and said screw it and just used the chandler.

The chandler has a pan underneath but I installed it lower on the table and my hand easily reachs underneath it.

Chris

[baileyuph]

Question:  Are the new 206 Consew machines still made in Japan?  That is parts and assembly?

Also what is the lift and stitch length range on the Consew?

Can one tell how much thread is on a lower bobbin - without removing bobbin?

Does anyone know how old the technology used on lower bobbin machines?



Now, compare the answers for the 206 with the answers to the 563.

Then, get two or more independant opinions from experienced mechanics (over 30 years or so) about the quality, and technology the two machines were made from.

User opinion can make some sense, especially if user has used both machines for a long while, for example over 20 years and doing different products.

It would be most interest to read an unbiased report following this criteria.

Then, it would help me make up my mind in a totally objective manner.

Doyle

[Mojo]

Doyle:

I did some research a while back and if memory serves me correctly I do not believe that any machine is made in Japan anymore. Even Pfaff moved their production to China from Germany. I will have to ask Bob Kovar if any machines are still made in Japan but I believe all the big names moved production to China. I do know my 563n is a Japanese machine because it is an older machine.

Alot of the machines now days are built in the same factories or down the street from one another.
Many are also clones of one another and get a different colored paint and badge. My Chandler is actually a Seiko. There is another machine made ( I forgot the name ) that is a clone of the Consew.
The Highlead is a clone to another brand. And on and on. Almost all the clones share the same parts the only difference is in paint and badging ( and price ).

In regards to checking bobbin thread on a bottom loader, unfortunately I do not know of any way to check it without removing it. If someone has a clever way please let me know. I admit Doyle this is one big PITA. :)

There are pluses and minuses to top and bottom load machines. Doyle just pointed out the difficulty of checking bobbin thread on a bottom loader. It is much easier to check the bobbin on a top loader. But the one plus for bobbin loaders is you get less jams from the bobbin because it is encased inside a bobbin case. On a bottom loader it is not mandatpory you hold and pull the thread on the start of a stitch run. One other plus is if you run out of thread on a stitch run you simply stop, pop in a new bobbin and keep sewing. No need to remove the material from the foot or pull the thread up through the hole.

Here are the specs Doyle: Stitch length - 2 1/2 "  -  Presser foot lift - 9/16 "   -  speed - 3,300 spm

I believe the Consew is more popular among auto/marine/canvas people. I know it has a following of some leather people but it seems to be more popular in production settings. It is considered a heavy duty industrial machine and is known to sew heavy thread and thick material. I just missed by two weeks getting one from the Monterey Boat Co. They had 8 brand new ones they were selling for $ 800 each. By the time I got there they only had the older Juki's left. They were closing down their Florida operation and moving it to their upholstery shop in Alabama.

I got a Juki 563 from them and I believe Ed got a 563 from them as well. They had 3 left and I told Ed and he went over and got one as well. They were very well taken care of because mine sewed perfectly when I gfot it home and nothing was worn. Both of us missed out on the fabric. They were selling complete rolls of marine vinyl for $ 5 each and poly thread for 2 bucks.

As I said before the Juki is a great machine and one of the best ever built. I have had no problems with mine, I just prefer the bottom loaders because that is what I cut my teeth on and am used to.

Chris

[baileyuph]

If my memory is correct, Industrial Pfaff (don't have any info on domestic) is no longer owned by a German company.  China bought the company in recent years, perhaps a few ago.  What was interesting at that time, they hired a German consulting company on all technical issues.  They being China.

Regarding Seiko, they used to make machines in Japan, years ago.  Then when Consew came into being, they were buying Seiko parts to build their machines (Industrial).  Seiko parts have always been regarded by journeyman machine mechanics as the best.
That said, and given the info that all machines are now made in China, what is the posture of Seiko?  Are they out of business, been bought, or ? 

As far as the technology of the bobbin (upper and lower), the lower bobbin technology some years ago on industrials was replaced by the upper.  The old Singer 16-188 an others of that vintage used the lower then for industrial machines used in upholstery, along came the Singer 111W155 (one of others) incorporated the upper case.  Given all that is correct, the lower bobbin is the oldest technology.  Personally, I have used and do have both technologies presently in use, I generally like the upper case.  That doesn't suggest the ower is not effective. 

Most problems with any machine, bobbin wrap for example, usually is related to wear and/or adjustment.  I have had experience of over 30 years sewing on the 111W155 technology and when they are "right", no problem.  Any of these machines can be miss understood and problems can be pointed at brand while it is something else.  A real good machine mechanic can be a positive to have access to.  There are many parameters to successful sewing.  Threads have significantly changed over the years of my career.  When entering the trade, most threads were cotton, not any more.  What are the ramifications of this fact?  There are many, old machine mechanics have always said that the stronger the thread, the more it chanllenges the machine.  They say it will hasten the wear on all machine parts the thread passes through.  They are right, it will cut a groove in metal (tension disc) pretty fast.  Putting these type of demands on equipment can cause problems with a good machine.

Currently run Pfaff, Singer, Consew, and Juki in my business.  When any one of them is kept in good condition, all are great machines, these are machines not made in China, BTW.  I wish I could say the parts that fit these machines coming from China were as good as the original parts.  China parts are cheaper, but if I can get original parts, those I prefer.  The feet are just machined out of better materials. 

A good source for machine engineering input are those small engineering companies that make parts for manufacturers (for example Tennesee attachments) and another that was based out of California.  Google might bring them up.  But, given the industrial world today, one would expect changes in that industry.

A Juki 563 in real good shape, made back in the days when things were done in Japan, probably used Seiko parts made there, was a premier machine 30 years ago.  It would be hard to turn loose to buy something out of China given what we "hear".  The technology of the machine (core technology) is as good as it gets. 

There have been features added to industrial machines in recent years that users have noted they really like, but that is another dimension to the intrinsic quality of machines that I believe are being discussed here.

These comments do not suggest that China cannot get the job done right, but when companies contract with them (namely US companies), price is a very high priority; that alone can drive the quality of anything being made, China or elsewhere.

Chris, buy the 206 and keep the 563, the way you are growing you will need the machines in the outcome.  It isn't like a machine company will allow a huge trade - in value on a used industrial machine is it?

Wouldn't it be great input to have this machine discussion talked about by engineers who really know the old machines and the cloning done in new machines?  We are users with varying experiences, a different group.

Doyle

[sofadoc]

Here are the specs Doyle: Stitch length - 2 1/2 "

Just to clarify. That's 2.5 stitches per inch......not stitches that are 2.5" wide. :D

Chris: How does that compare with the old 563? I had an old 562 that wouldn't do fewer than 4 SPI.

I'd venture to guess that one of the main reasons that the Consew is a popular choice, is price. The Consew 206 is about $500 less than a comparable Juki DNU-1541. But I agree with Doyle. When properly maintained, there probably isn't enough difference between the major brands to spit at.

Pfaff (now Mauzer Spezial) is built in China. But the engineering dept. is still located in Germany (for now, anyway).

Holding the top thread at start-up has become such an involuntary reflex with me, I don't even think about it. I even do it on my bottom load machine even though it isn't necessary.

[Mojo]

Geeessshhh Doyle. Now you really have me thinking. Maybe I should just keep the Juki. I have $ 400 into it and that included the entire set-up ( stand, motor, etc. ).

After what you posted it has me thinking now. I hate the top loading machines but then this Juki, being made in Japan is a very high quality machine. You can see and feel the difference. No idea how old it is  but it is the N model and I dont know what that means.

Maybe what I should do is have Bob go through the Juki and I will keep it like you suggested Doyle. Instead of throwing the money towards a new Consew I could hold off and get a long arm machine instead.

Bob is scheduled next month to go through both of my machines, tune them up, fix a couple small things through adjustments and give them a good going through. In the mean time I am going to see if the old man will get on here and answer a couple questions for us on the newer machines.

Doyle, the new Seiko STH-8BLD-3 is still being manufactured in Japan from what I can find out. It could be the only machine still made there. maybe Bob can answer that. But my initial search shows this Seiko being manufactured in Japan. This model is their heavy duty walking foot industrial machine.

I think maybe poor Bob lost a sale but then being a good friend I am sure he wants the best for me. But he knows I hate top loaders. :)

Chris

[baileyuph]

Chris,

You just made a very intelligent statement:  "get a long arm"!  I do not do awnings but that does not sound like anything but smart.  Bob is a straight up guy and I would think he could find you a high quality long arm, I wouldn't object to a used one that he said ran like new.  Save that money!

Did I tell you I have one, I use it on large truck seats, especially when I do channels.  It is also very handy on marine covers, which I repair more than make new.  It is a Juki BTW.  But not as technically advanced as your 563, mine is a bottom loader which I do not mind. 

Thumbs up on that Seiko machine you said was still being made in Japan. 

Machine mechanics and a few articles, I have read,  have nothing but praise for the Seiko products.

Regarding your 563, there are many feet that will work on that machine, same as Consew, is my experience.

Chris, jokes aside, would a long arm add efficiency to your awning sewing?


Dennis,

Regarding the engineering function in Germany, that supports current Pfaff production in China, I read that China contracts the work with the German engineering company.  Germany, also from what Iread, does not own the Pfaff sewing machine company, China bought it.

Also, your 562(a sweet machine BTW), does it have reverse?  Back then, I don't think what I am about to say applies to newer machines:

If a machine, like the 562 or a consew 225, came with reverse, it compromised the stitch length just a little, but not much.  I have a 225, without reverse, and it will do three stitches per inch.  I really haven't heard what the # of stitches per inch would be on the 225 with reverse.  Anyway, this is not the phenomena with newer machines, they have reverse on all of them it seems.  Can a new consew be bought without reverse?  I doubt it, so with that perspective, maybe reverse compromising a stitch length doesn't happen because, all machines have reverse.  Grin.


A mechanic said sometimes machines need adjusting if the stitch length isn't up to par.  Maybe someone else with a 562 w/reverse will reveal their sitch length capability.

No reverse is not a factor with me, unless I am repairing rips in boat covers or something like that.  If I need, ...........absolutely need reverse, there are several machines setting around the shop to use.  My long arm has reverse, I do use that reverse feature some.

Anyway, back to Chris, run your plan by your wife, she sounds like a "good head".

Doyle

[sofadoc]

Also, your 562(a sweet machine BTW), does it have reverse?..........If a machine, like the 562 or a consew 225, came with reverse, it compromised the stitch length just a little

My 562 DID have reverse (I traded the machine). I talked about the stitch length with Gregg a few years ago. He said that 4-5 SPI was about an average max for all machines "From that era".

[baileyuph]

The consew 225 does max of 3 per inch.  BTW, being a 225 it is without reverse.  If one wanted that machine with reverse, it was sold as a 226.  I should have made that clear in above post.

For comparison, when I have time, maybe I will google for stitch length on a 226.  Could do the same thing on a 562 and a 563. 

I did not realize that the reverse equipped machines like we have been talking compromised the max stitch length from 3 to 4 or 5.

Doyle 

[sofadoc]

I love this product description of the 563 from an E-bay seller:

Product Information
The Juki LU-563 sewing machine is a classic sewing machine that still has the juice to make you that pretty dress. This Juki sewing machine comes in a lot of classic, decorative colors like gold that will go very well with your room's interiors. This classic sewing machine works with a single-needle, lockstitch mechanism that is ideal for quick, fuss-free stitching, like hemming or altering. The Juki LU-563 sewing machine has a large bobbin, so that threading is not a problem anymore. This Juki sewing machine comes complete with its own table, stand and clutch motor, so that it can grace your room in stately splendor.


I know that when shopping for a walking foot machine, the things that I consider first are:
1) Can I use it to make a pretty dress?
2) Does it go well with my room's interior?
3) Will it grace my room in stately splendor?
4) Does it come in classic colors like gold?