staining maple dark

[lc]

Hi again guys and gals !!

I need refinishing advice !

yes I know staining maple sometimes goes blotchy yet my sister wants her antique dressing table ( solid maple )   a dark brown mahogany stain....

I stained an old table years back and it was not nice to do..the stain acted like a coating and wouldn't penetrate.
I've done a ton of refinishing but maple is intimidating...any tips on what to use for stain..and should I use a wood conditioner ??

I've seen dark maple before,,,how did they do that ! ??? Lol
Your advice is absolutely the best on here !
Looking forward to your tips on what to do and what ''not '' to do .
Elsie

[byhammerandhand]

Maple is one of those woods that stains with difficulty.   Particularly with pigment-based stains that you would likely find at the "home center" (aka BORG) or hardware store.  Botching is because the pigments get lodged in areas where the grain is a bit more swirly or angular than other areas.  If you are trying to highlight curly or birdseye maple, you might want this, but generally not.

A better approach is to use a dye-based stain.  Flood it on with a sponge, let it sit a minute, sponge off the excess (that you can then return to your pan).    The darkness of the dyed surface is a function of the concentration of the dye in its solvent.   So you will need to experiment with different concentrations on scrap (then follow up with your planned finish coats to get the real effect.)  One way to do this is mix up your full-strength dilution, apply it.  Pour off a bit, dilute that with carefully measured and recorded dilutions and repeat a couple of times.

The difference between a pigment and a dye:
- A pigment is a super-fine powder that is suspended in the dilutent.  Think a handful of dirt in a jar of water.   Eventually, all the particles will settle out to the bottom.   Pigmented stains need a "binder" to hold the powder in place once it's applied to the wood.   This is typically a highly diluted finish -- oil, varnish, lacquer or water-borne acrylic.   These you apply, and wipe off the excess.   Your amount of application and the degree to which you wipe off, along with the physical properties of the wood determine your outcome.

- A dye is dissolved in a solvent.  Think of a scoop of salt into a jar of water.   Once dissolved, you can't filter it out, it won't separate out.   Dyes penetrate and color the cells of the wood, not just "lie on top".    You can reduce the effect of the dye by controlling the concentration.  Or you can go back and remove a lot of it by wiping with the solvent.   You can add dyes on top of dyes and tweak the colors.  Dyes can be either powders that you dissolve in solvent (water or alcohol) such as Lockwood or Transfast, or concentrated liquids such as Transtint.  I also spray some dyes in very light coats.

When you buy a can of stain at the store, you don't really know if it's dye, pigment, or perhaps both.  You can put a stick in the un-stirred can and see if you pull up sludge (pigment) and/or if the color goes all the way to the top (dye).

Wood Conditioners are a dilute coat of finish (usually about 5-10% solids) that seal up some of the wood cell structures to reduced the number and size of places for the pigment to lodge.  The crap in the yellow can does not do much.  But it works best if you use it like you should use any other "wash coat" -- let it dry overnight.

There are two other techniques that you can use to add or tweak color

1) Glazes.  These are heavily pigment / light binder solutions that go between coats of finish.   You can use these to highlight structure (carvings, molding, pores) or to tweak/neutralize colors.    They need to be top coated with another coat of finish after thoroughly drying.

2) Toners   These are coats of finish that contain color (dye or pigment, both are used).  These are likewise used to tweak/neutralize.  But you can also use these to be the primary coloring or do do things like shading exterior edges of pieces.  You usually need to spray toners to get them on thin enough.   That rules out the "worst thing to happen to a can" known as "Polyshades" and its "all in one" type finishes.

So, I'd go with the dye.  But the first rule is to test on scrap until you know the results and are happy with them.

[byhammerandhand]

Oh, and when refinishing -- use a chemical stripper.   Sanding is painfully slow, and does not completely nor evenly remove the old finish.

[lc]

Thank you Keith

Massive and very informative ! It sure brings to light the difference in types of stains,
Yes I used a chemical stripper first and have just finished sanding . I will head to town tomorrow to a reputable paint and stain store to get the proper dye.
Now when you mention glazes is that anything like the gel stains I've seen ? Or is this something different again

[byhammerandhand]

Some people use gel stains as glazes.   Ive always used specifically made glazes.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/glazes_and_glazing_techniques


Be prepared for a clerk to have no idea what you mean by a dye.   Many don't know anything other than latex paint and polyurethane varnish.

[lc]

Yes I know what you mean . some clerks think they know their stuff and at times I just groan to myself and look elsewhere.
I have been having a hard time finding gloves that don't wear through when using strippers and thinners .

My husband came home with a pair yesterday and he said the guy said they shouldn't wear through and if they do bring them back...well , they are going back.

I've seen in lee valley and other catalogues neoprene gloves..are they any good ?  I have a table and hutch coming in soon and I admit I am tired of buying gloves at 3 to 5 dollars a pair just to through them out 1/4 way through my job. any recommendations??