Cockpit Cover Dilemma

[jojo]

Hi guys,
I'm doing a cockpit cover for a Bayliner Capri. The snaps are on the top of the windshield, but so are three common sense fasteners which hold part of an enclosure in place.
It doesn't seem like I can do cutouts for the common sense fasteners because that would leave gaps.
Won't the cover look goofy going on top of these studs, or should I just try to make teeny tiny cutouts? Or should I incorporate common sense eyelets (?) into the cover? Anyone ever do this before?
Thanks,
Jo

[Mike]

The fasteners in question must be on the window frame. Is the cover cover the glass to the bottom.
If not and just to the toP I'd use them  and put a common sense ffastner there if your going over them then I'd reinforce the canvas at the window frame and ot worry about them

[jojo]

Thanks Mike. The cover doesn't cover the whole windshield; it starts at the top. I guess I will work with the fasteners, as much as I hate them.

[DBR1957]

Just use them to attach the cover. Don't see why you wouldn't unless you don't
have the $200 handpunch to make the hole for the canvas socket.

FWIW, the common sense has always been my least favorite fastener also.

[jojo]

DBR, I will use a knife to make the holes; there are only three of them, and I use them too infrequently to pay for that tool.

http://www.sailrite.com/Twist-Lock-or-Common-Sense-Fastener-Eyelet-Installation-Streaming-Video

[Mike]

I like lift the dots better no moving parts. It will make sure the. O er code t come off going down the road.
I found a co er tha covers the window snapping at the. Ase of the widow will some off goo g down the road medal then one snapped at the top of the window
I had a dealor with a new o s I had made for a new boat over the glass  I lift the dots when he got where he was you g the cover was go e. ever lost one at the top of the glass  ever

[Peppy]

Funny you guys hate the common sense. Up here people with lift the dots get new covers just to get rid of them. I've never had a single person request them. In fact they're relieved when I tell them we use those 'twisty things'. And no moving parts- on the boat.

Jojo, if you have a grommet hole punch that'll work for the center hole. A #2 maybe? Then a regulator for the 4 prongs.

[JuneC]

$200????  I get by just fine with the die cutter you bang with a hammer. 

  http://www.rochfordsupply.com/shop/Upholstery_Tools/Cutters_and_Punches/Cutting_Punch_for_Common_Sense_Fastener/index.html

Don't set that many of them to warrant the hand-held tool.  This works just fine. 

June

[Mike]

June I install my lift the dots and fur buttons on the install
Like my snaps usualy it's just windows a d I install the fast er while the window is hanging pull tight and install the gromett how do you do this with a hammers punch

[JuneC]

I just mark the locations, take the cover/windows off and install the grommets, then put them back up.  I install so very few of them I really can't justify the hand punch.  It's all about snaps and lift-the-dots over here.  The springs in lift-the-dots seem to outlast Common Sense.  In fact, I've never seen a spring inside lift-the-dot go bad. 

June

[DBR1957]

At times when I've forgotten my punch I will just use the largest die on a revolving
punch and nibble out the large center hole. Touch up with a lighter. For the smaller
prong holes I punch with the smallest die on the revolving punch. Works like a
charm.

Common sense fasteners do have their place. Most notably for older customers
with hand problems. No tugging and pulling. But if the customers lube the DOT and
LTDs like I suggest they have no problem.

The reason I don't like them is because the large hole inevitably leaks and this is
problematic over the area dash. Try to put cord welt on to seal it and it becomes a
pain to fasten it. Let's face it, that grey foam on Bayliners and Maxums doesn't
seal that hole and most of the time not in between either. Also, I've seen to many
twist fasteners end up with the socket wedged under the twist button and they're
bent or broken off. It always seems like the ones I have to replace were riveted
on and by the time I drill out the rivets the hole is enlarged and I have to use a #8
screw to remount. When I do that I have to use a double length twist stud so the
grommet doesn't bottom out on the screw heads. When I use double length stud
the gap between canvas and panel increases and there goes your seal. On top of
all that I've seen to many rip out because the original installer used the old oval
style inserts on the bottom side. I always use the newer four hole plate because
it cinches better. Not perfect but better.

So honestly, I don't like twist fasteners

[Mike]

June do you have the punch tool for lift the dots? I also like the lift the dot much better nothing to break. Though I have. Olfh tools to make it easy. I used to not have  luntch and witha. Ommin sen Enid just  lay the prong part on the table Prussia the canvas on top of it to see the prongs poking I'd use my hot knife touch it the the points snd the prongs would come throught then after installed id melt out the oval with a soldering iron. I only see the lift the dots when I do a bridge enclosure. Which I havnt done one now for awhile   Een busy with covers primarily

[Peppy]

The reason I don't like them is because the large hole inevitably leaks and this is
problematic over the area dash. Try to put cord welt on to seal it and it becomes a
pain to fasten it. Let's face it, that grey foam on Bayliners and Maxums doesn't
seal that hole and most of the time not in between either. Also, I've seen to many
twist fasteners end up with the socket wedged under the twist button and they're
bent or broken off. It always seems like the ones I have to replace were riveted
on and by the time I drill out the rivets the hole is enlarged and I have to use a #8
screw to remount. When I do that I have to use a double length twist stud so the
grommet doesn't bottom out on the screw heads. When I use double length stud
the gap between canvas and panel increases and there goes your seal. On top of
all that I've seen to many rip out because the original installer used the old oval
style inserts on the bottom side. I always use the newer four hole plate because
it cinches better. Not perfect but better.

Custom canvas; the only trade where you can do something 3 different ways and they can all be wrong.

I don't like LTD because they're little spears peppered around your boat. TB's at least have a wee bit of give before puncturing your foot. I've seen plenty coming loose on the boat due to the one screw design, then you're left with a 3/16 or larger crater. I guess my customers never got the 'lube it up' lesson because I almost always need to reef on them or use pliers. Getting them done up isn't much better.

I rairly use TBs on windshields, so I don't have that problem. LTDs did give me the idea to mount TBs on windshield clips (I made a thing in the Howd You Do that? Board) We use TBs mostly on either side of panel zippers and you can use an old snap hole and move it to the left or right or cover the hole all together. I don't have too much trouble replacing pop riveted TBs. Just drill off the head and the rivet till its close to the boat and whack it with a 1/8" punch.

Different strokes ;)

[Mike]

About the only time I use them or have to deal eith the. Peppy is a window like this were the reverse angle would have a snap unsnap and one way snaps I have. Ever liked them.
So on the front windows I'd needed so sll the sindows have them your not going to step on one. 
A gull wing on a t tips enclore also I will use a ltd or tb
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy102/Mike8560/BLue%20Dolphin%201/100_1866.jpg

[bobbin]

I see both sides of the arguement for LTD and CS fasteners.  I see far more roached LTD than CS.  Over nearly 20 yrs. in this trade I find customers rarely take any time at all with their canvas.  Lube zippers, snaps, LTDs, or bother to clean the plastic windows? forget it!

One of the biggest issues I see with LTDs is that the female portion of the fastener abrades the fabric of the cover  and you get a giant, gaping hole at the fastener site.  Or the little wire loop inside the female portion of the fastener breaks.  Repairing the former is a pain because after you fix the torn site it is becomes trickier to reset the fastener in the correct postition.  It can be done by pencilling in two lines to form "cross hairs", but because they're more "precise" than a CS it's harder.  I rarely see the plastic "washers" used with LTDs, and when they are used, the washers are never "super-sized"(see way more of the over-sized washers on CS).  And they need to be!