Webbing on top of seat frame?

[gatsby989]

Greetings everyone,
By way of introduction, I'm a novice at upholstery, having only ever made a couple of slip seats. I've done a little bit of woodworking, and my current project is a wingback chair. I'm certain I've done what every woodworker does: cluelessly build it, and then find out later it will be impossible to upholster. So I was hoping I could get some feedback before the chair is completely built.

Specifically, I had planned on putting the webbing on top of the frame, rather than on the underside, since the bottom seat rails are scalloped, as you can see in the pic. My plan was to put the springs (I was guesstimating 4" springs) on top of the webbing, and tying them to the top of the frame (also where the webbing is attached). Then the fabric would ultimately be attached at the rabbet along the top of the frame, so the wood will show.

However, everything I've read, googled, youtube'd etc., shows the webbing being put on the bottom of the frame, with significantly taller springs, which are then tied to the top of the frame (so they aren't so compressed at the edges). So perhaps I've made a major error. What do you think? Is my plan reasonable? Idiotic? Ditch the springs and go with a foam seat instead? Will foam last?

The chair is not yet glued up, so a "save" might be possible, if necessary. For example, I could build in some rails or something to support the webbing down inside the seat rails, but I am not sure if that's really a big deal or not. There are upholstery bars that go in the notches you see in the rear legs / arms, but I didn't put them in, as this was just a dry fit to check what joints need cleaning up, etc.

Any suggestions or hints would be very much appreciated!



Oops, apparently big pics are a no-go. You can see a bigger, more detailed pic here: http://www.hogsmack.com/woodworking/wingback/wingback17.jpg

[sofadoc]

Welcome gatsby. Nice looking frame.
There are many antiques that DO have webbing attached to the bottom edge of a scalloped frame, so don't let the scalloped rail deter you, if that's what you want.
Another option would be elastic webbing stapled to the top rail. Then foam/batting over that.
What is your plan for trimming along the edge of the seat?

[MinUph]

Hey Gatsby,
 Welcome aboard.
 The size of the picture makes it a bit had to see but I do see some rails missing. As sofadoc mentioned it's not a problem webbing the bottom just leave the webbing in from the front edge. I would recommend you picking up a junk chair from someplace and strip it down to see how the framing is done. As I said there are around 6 rails that are missing in your frame. These make upholstering the piece much easier. If I can find a picture of a bare frame I will try to point out these.
 As for springs you can't beat hand tied coils. But the bottom needs the webbing and tying springs is not really a beginner undertaking without help or some sort of guidance.
 Looks like you did a nice job on the frame just needs some tweaking to make it ready. Ask away, we will help.
\  Just saw the bigger pic. You need more wood.  :)

[sofadoc]

Hey gatsby, have you checked out Mike802's wing chair videos?
The chair in his video is an upholstered deck with a loose seat cushion, but many other facets of the job are similar to what you are attempting.
Here's a link to one of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF7JQKuvqSs&feature=bf_next&list=ULWSiwXFaGsu4&lf=mfu_in_order

[gatsby989]

Thanks all for the replies. I think I may have found a solution.  Here is a link to the chair that largely inspired my project (the woodwork inspired it, alas, not the upholstery):

http://woodworkerszone.com/igits/showthread.php?t=7288&highlight=wing+back+chair

John's ww skills blow mine out of the water, obviously. But that aside, it looks like the bottoms of the seat rails are rabbetted so the carved / scalloped edge does not actually receive the webbing. Somehow I did not notice that before.  :-[  I'm guessing the webbing is attached to that, rather than the uneven scalloped part. Also wouldn't risk showing. If I were to do that. how much "meat" should there be for the webbing? The rails are between 1" and 1.25" thick, so at some places, the very most I could leave would be like 3/4". Would 1/2" or 5/8" be enough? The wood is walnut, if it matters.

Also, I don't have a pic of my chair with the bars, I will try to take one soon. The back has bars like John's chair, and the arms/wings also have a bar similar to John's, that goes all the way across the bottom arm / wing, about 1.5 or so above the seat rail.

Sofadoc: Yes, I've watched many of Mike's videos, and they have already been very, very helpful! One reason I wanted to join this board. ;) My plan for trimming the edge is to tack / staple the fabric in the rabbet along the top of the rails, and then cover with double welt/piping (not sure the correct term). I'm not a huge fan of decorative tacks/nails, but I could live with it, if that were necessary.

[kodydog]

At first I was going to suggest no-sag springs. Much easier for the novice upholsterer. But the more I look at your chair and all the fine detail you did in the woodworking I'd have to say only 8-way hand tied coil springs will do. Even if that means taking it to someone with experience in this procedure. The chair is just begging for a plump down cushion. Something else you may want to order from a reputable upholsterer. I believe someone with your skills in woodworking should be able to handle all the other aspects of the upholstery job.

If when you start upholstering and find any details your not sure about just ask.

I'm sure you know patience is the key when learning a new skill.

Good luck I'm sure it'll come out great.

[mike802]

Hi gatsby989: Welcome to the forum.  I am glad my videos have been helpful for you. You have built a real nice looking chair, one to be proud of.  When I build my pieces, I usually run a 1/2" dado on the inside of the bottom rails, about 1/4" deep to hide the webbing.  When stapling the webbing angle them towards the outside of the rails, to anchor them into the thicker part of the wood.  You don't have to use decorative tacks, a double welt, or a gimp can be used to hide the tacks, or staples that you use to apply the cover fabric.

[gatsby989]

Thanks, Mike, just the kind of info I was looking for. My only concern is that scalloping is so "deep," that in order to get a straight line across, in some places the edge of the rabbett / dado will be as much as 1 3/8" below the scalloped edge, which might make it hard to stretch the webbing and get it tacked down.

[mike802]

You could follow the scalloping with the dado and install your webbing on the summits and in the valleys.  I would think a dado router bit with a rub bearing would work, it might take some hand work in a few areas if you feel it is necessary.  The webbing does not have to completely fill the bottom and space between the webbing strands is ok as long as it is not extreme.

[Darren Henry]

Just tossing up an idea here;

Could one not build a frame that fits inside the seat frame, web it, and then mount it to the main frame?

[mike802]

I thought about that also Darren, Although on a little different lines, I was thinking he has nice deep aprons and he could just glue a 3/4" board on the inside, the board could be almost as deep as his aprons, just leaving it a little short, creating the dado, he could cut out the scallop pattern on the side boards that he could glue in.  I would think this would last for a very long time, not as long as a cut in dado, but certainly for his lifetime.

[gatsby989]

Thanks all for your input and ideas. I decided to cut a straight rabbet / dado into the rails, and give that a go. I considered building a frame to go inside, and if I can't get the webbing attached to the rabbet, that might be the way to go.

Here are a couple pics with the upholstery bars in place. I'm going to re-do the vertical back bars, because they are flush with the front, but not flush with the back. So I'm going to use 8/4 poplar instead, so they are flush with both the front and the back.

Is there anything I'm missing? Thanks so much for all your help!

[MinUph]

Thanks all for your input and ideas. I decided to cut a straight rabbet / dado into the rails, and give that a go. I considered building a frame to go inside, and if I can't get the webbing attached to the rabbet, that might be the way to go.
Best to web right to the existing frame. Adding one might fail in time.

Here are a couple pics with the upholstery bars in place. That looks much better. The rails are needed to give the fill and fabric lines to conform to. I'm going to re-do the vertical back bars, because they are flush with the front, but not flush with the back. So I'm going to use 8/4 poplar instead, so they are flush with both the front and the back.
Thats OK they don't need to be flush with the back. In fact its better they are not.

Is there anything I'm missing? Thanks so much for all your help!

Recommendation. Next build make the front arms stand proud of the top arm rails about 1/16". This will allow gimp or double welt to lay better. This will be a fine chair. Great job!

[gatsby989]

I'm going to re-do the vertical back bars, because they are flush with the front, but not flush with the back. So I'm going to use 8/4 poplar instead, so they are flush with both the front and the back.
Thats OK they don't need to be flush with the back. In fact its better they are not.

OK, I think I get it: you don't want them exactly flush, because then there might be a bulge where the webbing is tacked to the bars after you put the final back piece over it?

As they currently are, they are a pretty good 1/2" or so in from the back, and only 3/4" thick. Is that enough depth for the back springs?

[MinUph]

Yes gatsby that's the idea. The thickness of these vertical back bars as your calling them doesn't really matter for the springs as long as their pretty strong. From the looks of your work I'm sure they are plenty strong. These are really there to support the fill and fabric. But yes you will attach twines to them if you use springs in the back. If you do use springs you want very soft ones. Back springs are very much softer than seat springs. Also if you do spring the back do it before you spring the seat it will be easier to work on. And when you put on the burlap over the springs attach it, folded, to the face of these vertical bars so its out of the way of the rest and it won't rub on the edge of the wood. For some springing a back is difficult. You need to make the burlap snug but not pulling the springs down on the sides. Stitching the burlap around the circumference of the outer springs will tighten up the face of the spring area and not pressure on the edges to the wood. Hope that makes sense. I would say you could opt for foam but I don't think this is your plan. Your making a quality piece, so don't lesson it.