New Machine (part 2)

[RandyOnR3]

  We've pretty much settled on the Juki 1541 as an additional machine and for all the help, thanks..
   Now the second part..
  We're getting more and more repairs for "sails" and being asked if we will modify also.. 
   We've had an older Sailrite Sailmaker for such repairs but it's not designed for shop use......
   Looking for a ZigZag machine for under 2k     .. something for the shop..
and wishfull thinking, I'd like to find a longarm but the price is to high..

[Bob T]

Trying to find a zigzag sewing machine which is good for sails is a really difficult task.  IF you are looking for a machine to sew some 6 oz. dacron with #69 or #92 thread, then a Bernina 217N might work for boats up to 21 ft.  The Bernina 217N is a really good machine, but it is NOT built for heavy sails and thread heavier than #92.  The transport mechanism is just not robust enough.  For #92 thread and heavier, I'd suggest something from the following list:
Duerkopp Adler 525, Minerva 525, Global ZZ 567
If you are going to use 138 thread most of the time and up to 277 thread then: Adler 266, Adler 366, and Seiko SKZ

I have a Bernina 217N and it is a hell of a good machine, but it is limited to mostly work with #69 thread.  I too have been looking for a machine which can handle #92 thread easily and up to #207 thread.  So far, I've had no luck finding such a machine in the used market.  

Several years ago, I purchased a Chinese clone of the Adler 366 ($5400) and it has been a major pain in the butt.  I virtually had to replace every chinese screw, bolt, and nut with US made fasteners.  Also, my machine arrived untimed, not just in the hook and needle, but in most other functions including transport timing, etc.  It took me quite a bit of fussing with it to get it to mimic the timing of my Bernina so it would sew.

Currently, there are several  Bernina 217N's, some with cam readers, available on Craigslist, but no medium to heavy duty machines.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/art/2745224964.html

[Gregg @ Keystone Sewing]

Bob,

I could write a book on sailmaking sewing machines.

The Minerva 525 is made by, Minerva, in the Czech Republic, and is sold under the Global and Durkopp Adler names.  All same machine from the same factory.  Global has closed it's USA office about five years ago.  It has since been updated to a new model, 525i, seen here; http://www.keysew.com/Webpages/Owners&PartsBooks/Brochures/DurkoppAdler525Brochure.pdf

The 525 is very well made, and a quality machine, that we used to stock and sell under the Durkopp Adler name, and sold both standard arm, plus factory long arm with automatic functions.

Highlead has a good copy of this style machine we stock, more specific the 528 model copied, seen here; http://store.keysew.com/highlead-gg0028-1fl-with-assembled-stand

Highlead also has a walking foot model http://store.keysew.com/highlead-gk0058-with-assembled-stand

As for the Bernina, this is more of a commercial machine, but by todays standards, an industrial.  Very well made machine, and yes, very popular.  Not well known, but this machine, too was sold under the Adler name as well.  

If your looking for a 'Thumper' sailmakers like to call them, for heavy sails, corners and patches, there a few models, all mentioned by Bob; The Adler 166, 266, or 366.  We have in stock the 266, seen here; http://store.keysew.com/catalog/product/86cea92a87a04a03bc582b5e8f93273f

Also, a very nice machine for less is the Typical model TW7-6B that is a copy of the Seiko SKZ-6B, or Consew SKZ-6R seen here; http://store.keysew.com/catalog/product/922004d3d8924f39b9513133884cc205

Out of curiosity, Bob, what brand or factory did that 366 copy come from?

I've seen one come in for 'repair', that was really a new machine that needed, as you can image extensive setup out of the box, and a lot of replaced parts, sold under a popular name I don't care to mention here.  As you stated, we were less than impressed with this machine.

[Bob T]

If my memory serves me correctly, the 366 I purchased from China was made by the Bao Xa manufacturing company and also sold under the Sunsew brand name.  Out of curiosity, the Duerkopp Adler 525i is listed as able to handle 20/3 size thread.  What is 20/3 size equivalent to in commercial thread sizing?

The Bernina 217-N was also sold under the Chandler label.  Here is one with the cam reader and numerous cams  NOTE: this one has a very narrow limitation to the zigzag width: http://medford.craigslist.org/for/2760072019.html

[Gregg @ Keystone Sewing]

If my memory serves me correctly, the 366 I purchased from China was made by the Bao Xa manufacturing company and also sold under the Sunsew brand name.  Out of curiosity, the Duerkopp Adler 525i is listed as able to handle 20/3 size thread.  What is 20/3 size equivalent to in commercial thread sizing?

The Bernina 217-N was also sold under the Chandler label.  Here is one with the cam reader and numerous cams  NOTE: this one has a very narrow limitation to the zigzag width: http://medford.craigslist.org/for/2760072019.html

Chandler, Bernina, Adler, yup, all one and the same.  Again, very nice popular 217 model machine.

Sounds unprofessional, but 20/3 that Minerva and Juki (and many others use) is size metric, but I don't have a conversion chart. For example, A&E has a size 20 metric that correlates to Tex135/V138, but this is too heavy, IMO, and the 525i uses, with the heavy hook/large needle hook (same as 528) only a V92 size, like you were saying.

I'm very confused with this, and any thread guys may be able to assist here, but I've only seen conflicting info.

[bobbin]

There is a Consew zig zag in the shop where I work.  It is notoriously cranky and I loathe using it.  I don't know the model number but I will try to remember to check tomorrow.  It was purchased for sail work, but I don't think it is up to the job.  Corner patches? forget it.  It even balks at restitching UV covers. 

[Bob T]

For a while, I used a Consew 146.  It was a bear and would go out of time weekly.  I nicknamed it "Skippy", not a term of endearment.  

I probably would get one of the 525/528's if I could be sure it would readily sew V138 thread in multiple layers like is found  in the corners of heavier sails.

My 366 uses a 794/7x3 needle system and in size 22 and 23 needles, the size I would use for V92 thread, the needles are very spindley/flexible resulting in lots of broken and bent needles.  The needles flex out of position with the slightest provocation, such as striking an existing needle hole.   I wish the machine could be changed to a different system with a shorter and a stiffer SAN 6 Groz-Beckert needle.  The 794 needles are about 2-3/4" long where 135x17 needles are about  1-3/4" long.  The extra length makes them quite flexible.

Even though I only repair windsurfing sails, there are times when the multiple layers of material, often 6-10 layers thick, are 1/4" to nearly 3/8" thick, and my Bernina just cannot handle that much material.  This occurs at the very top and very bottom of the larger windsurfing sails. Could be the 525/528 would also be too small and what I really need is an SKZ or Adler 266.  For a while, I owned a very good Adler 204 which is the straight stitch version of the 266.  It was a wonderful machine and a delight to sew with. 

[Gregg @ Keystone Sewing]

Bob T,

The Consew 146RB is a pretty good machine, and does sew up to a V138, no problem.  If it's not setup correctly, as is with any zig zag, yes, they are going to be touchy. 

The 525/528 in contrast only sews up to a V92.

Both are good for seaming, spinnakers, light sail cloth, up to about eight layers or so.

The SKZ and 166/266/366 are better suited for heavy corners and patches, and heavy sails.

We sold a Highlead that our customer is very happy with (after we went over it 1st) that is based off the Durkopp Adler 366, seen here; http://store.keysew.com/highlead-gk0058-a-with-assembled-stand