looking for definition of vinyl weights

[edward]

I am a newbie. I have been practicing on whatever vinyls I can find. Bought a pile of scraps from an upholstery  shop. Now I am interested in trying some projects. The problem is when I look at suppliers, I don't know what gauges are good or too thin. I have some vinyls that are too thin (cheap) and some seems really thick. I am mostly interested in automotive grade. Please give advice on what to look for.

[DBR1957]

Since you don't really know what you got from the local shop I wouldn't use
any of it for a job. Keep it for practice.

Get yourself some sample cards from a supplier. The cards will generally give
some technical data on the back. For cars I think the most important info is
the Wezenbeck (sp?) rub test.

I think Miami Mike can help you with some samples and info.

[Rich]

Naugahyde and other good brands of upholstery vinyls are generally 28-32 oz.
Rich

[Mojo]

Miami Mike would be an excellent resource for you. He has forgot more about fabric then you and the rest of us will ever learn. :) He is my go-to guy for questions on vinyl, covering fabric, etc.

I am sure he will jump on here and give you his contact details. He is a great guy to deal with and I sole source everything through him. He has awesome prices as well.

Chris

[Miami Mike]

Not sure where to start. Every vinyl has its place. You have Auto, Marine and Contract vinyl's. Each one passes a test. For the Auto side, you can use any vinyl that passes the FMVSS302, Marine Vinyl's are Marine do not put auto vinyl's in a boat or any outside project, on most auto vinyl's you do not have a mildew backing like Marine. It will mold. Marine vinyl's can be used in cars, most pass the FMVSS302. Contract Vinyl's like a Naugahyde, can be used in Auto or Marine. You still need to see the specs on the vinyl. If you go to our web page, click on the sample tab. Start looking at the sample cards. This will help you understand.

Applications>> Hard to explain it, you have to get experience in working on and with vinyl's or fabrics. All of our CSR are trained to help on this. If you call and tell them what you are doing, they will recommend xyz for it. All fabrics have their place.

http://www.miamicorp.com/

Miami Mike

[edward]

Thank you for the replies. With more experience, I guess a person can feel a material and know what it will do. I don't have a showroom nearby to go look at material, and no need to invest in a large sample book.

[kpohorylo]

I manufacturer padding for fitness equipment, bike seats, and snowmobiles. I use anywhere from a 30oz to a 40oz vinyl. I have found anything under a 30oz does not hold up as well. For a "softer" feel I have used leather. There are some great leather-like products out there that are more cost effective as well.

[ahkahn]

Vinyl weights are much overrated today.  5-10 years ago and prior, vinyl weights were a lot more important.  Vinyl technology has come so far that the weight is a negligible factor.  Here's the reasoning:

Vinyl thickness & weight was the key measurement as to how long the vinyl will last.  The thicker and heavier a vinyl, the more durable it was.  Take Spirit by Naugahyde for example.  A 37 oz. material.  It was rated at over 250,000 double rubs.  Much better than the other 25,000-75,000 double rub vinyls on the market at the time.  Those others were in the 28-32 oz. range. 

Enter newer vinyl technology...  Today, with far superior topcoats, you can have a workhouse vinyl like Americana by Futura which is a 28 oz. vinyl rated to exceed 500,000 double rubs.  Most 28-32 oz. vinyls today will easily exceed 100,000 double rubs.  Most vinyls today (which are lighter) will meet or exceed Spirit's ratings.  Even Naugahyde came out with All American, which is a lighter-weight version of Spirit.  Both perform comparably in terms of wear. 

Our sales on Spirit have been dwindling over the past 5 years, our sales on All American and Americana have been shooting up over the past 5 years.  This is purely because people are realizing that spending the extra money on a heavier-weight vinyl isn't meriting the return anymore.

So, when someone is looking for a heavy-weight vinyl, my first question is, "why?"

-Andrew

[baileyuph]

Industrial seating and transportation seating works better with heavy vinyls.  I hear what is being said by changes in vinyl technology.

Thinner materials may require more build up attention to achieve a quality look, feel, and a cover that will be as durable for industrial equipment and truck seating. 

There might be more scientific data available, that looks all dimensions of how a material will be used to address thoughts like this.

A heavier material in seating can often offer added insulation and physical stability to the final product.  Thinner materials also can require more refined padding buildup to yield a acceptable product.  Thin materials will allow padding irregularites to show through in the finish cover.

Then, there should be some thoughts about using a bigger guage needle with larger threads, regarding the strength of seams. 

Thinner materials usually do work better for intricate fitting. 

This might be a question that it "depends"?

Doyle

[Rich]

So far, I've read posts that talk about abrasion resistance and thickness, but nothing on the biggest reason vinyl used in indoor applications gets replaced and that is cracking due to becoming brittle. This is the result when enough of the plasticizer that is in every soft vinyl becomes exhausted. As soon as vinyl is put into use it will begin to lose it's plasticizer and this process is accelerated by heat, perspiration and body oils. Go into any health club and look at the machine pads and you will see seams at the edges that are holding up well, but the cover is trashed b/c the areas that get the most body contact have become brittle and are starting to crack and break open. Thickness may play a role here, but I think the higher quality vinyls and especially those specifically formulated for use in health clubs will last longer.
While were on the subject of longevity, having worked with vinyl for going on 40 years I truly believe that all manufacturers of vinyl roll goods subscribe to the planned obsolescence school of thought. The vinyl that was produced in the 60's would outlast most that are produced today. My Grandmother had a kitchen set that defied description well into the late 90's. Not a split or a crack anywhere. True, she didn't give it a lot of use in her later years, but I doubt you'll see a vinyl produced today lasting that long in any use. Many of these vinyls, which I still see coming into my shop once in awhile don't even have a backing, just plain vinyl. I don't think they needed it since the formulation was so good. But longevity didn't do much to ensure a future for the vinyl industry (not to mention upholsterers!) so I believe that stuff had to be toned down.

Rich

[ahkahn]

Rich,  I'll address your comments on the health club situation and plasticizers.  You are correct to say that vinyl cracks because plasticizers are depleting.  This has occurred since the beginning of vinyl.  The biggest difference is that vinyl manufacturers are now able to make softer vinyl with more plasticizers in them because of better topcoat technology.  The topcoat seals in the plasticizers. 

The biggest problem in health clubs, as well as restaurants, and other applications, is that most cleaners gently (or not so gently) remove the topcoat.  Body oils and perspiration don't necessarily destroy the vinyl, it's the cleaners used that do. 

With that said, the older vinyl from your grandmother's kitchen probably was not put through the wear and tear (constant daily cleaning) that a restaurant or health club vinyl would sustain.  That's why it lasted dramatically longer.  If planned obsolescence were the case with the vinyl manufacturers, "heavy-duty" vinyl rated at 30,000 double rubs (which was excellent 40 years ago) pails in comparison to today's low-end vinyl which performs around 75,000 double rubs.  Excellent vinyl is 100,000+.  The standards (along with quality) have dramatically raised over the years. 

-Andrew

[Rich]

I still see cracking as the biggest reason for replacement and don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about getting the work, but abrasion resistance doesn't seem to be a problem for longevity from what I see.
I will say this, as I'm finishing up on a job, I will sometimes notice that somewhere in the reupholstery process, I caused a small scuff line in the vinyl surface by maybe sliding it face down on the carpeted bench where a tool or stray staple was lying or by some other misfortune. That line is just about impossible to remove and it happens on Spirit and even Naugasoft and that product has a rating of 1,000,000 double rubs! (yeah I had to read that one twice too). When health club pads are wiped down with a disinfectant, the whole pad is exposed to the disinfectant, but the hardening and subsequent cracking occurs only in the are where it was contacted by perspiration and body oils during use.
Rich

[Mojo]

A heavier material in seating can often offer added insulation and physical stability to the final product.  Thinner materials also can require more refined padding buildup to yield a acceptable product.  Thin materials will allow padding irregularites to show through in the finish cover.

Doyle

I have to agree with Doyle. I have worked with thin vinyl and thick vinyl and when doing cushions, etc. the end product always looks better with the heavier vinyl. The lay seems to be better and there is less buildup needed to achieve a nice clean cushion.

Chris

[baileyuph]

the end product always looks better with the heavier vinyl.

Chris reflects my experience, for commercial seating, the heavier vinyls look better and definitely wear better. 

In perspective when installing a cover of a very thin nature, there will likely be more pull marks to contend with. 

Plus, the thinner vinyls, will show the seam allowance folds and if one uses a heavier thread, it will be unsightly. 

When health club pads are wiped down with a disinfectant, the whole pad is exposed to the disinfectant, but the hardening and subsequent cracking occurs only in the are where it was contacted by perspiration and body oils during use.
Rich

Exactly, and Rich what you describe in always observed on the contact points in auto interiors also.  Also those surface scratch issues have been noted.

I would prefer to get back to the basics of evaluating vinyls, we talk about rub and other test.  We need input from engineers on what these test printed on vinyl labels actually simulate in the users world.

Since price drives everything, are these thinner vinyls cheaper to buy than their heavier competition?  If you think I am suggesting that this thinner is better issue is mostly about marketing, well since you mentioned it we might need more perspectives on this from the people who build the stuff.  We users it is fair to say aren't buying into thinner.

One thought that likely is wrapped up in the virtue of weight in vinyls is auto manufacturers add backing to their vinyls to enhance wear and looks, they don't go to the thinnest stuff at the end of the day.  Because a thicker backing enhances the look and the durablility of the automotive seat.  They spend considerable effort and expense doing this and we trimmers experience the same result from a pragmatic perspecitive. 

Like I suggest, lets get the real engineers into this and see where it goes.

One or two parameters, the number of rubs or scrubs are not the only important parameters obviously.  Scientist will likely suggest there are additional parameters that are important. 

Doyle

[Rich]

I liked the vinyls that were available when I started in the auto trim business in the early 70's. These were carried by the local jobbers as "surplus", over runs I suppose from the mills who supplied the oem's. Many were made by Uniroyal (Naugahyde). They had a strong, flexible cotton knit backing and the vinyl was superior to anything I work with today. The closest to that and probably even better were the MB Tex vinyls used by Mercedes. I used those back in the 80's until I got out of that business. Today, I use the same vinyls that the dental chair mfgrs. use which are Naugahyde, Morbern and Boltaflex . They are all good vinyls, but I like them in that order. Their Spirit line is one that can hold up for many years and is 37 oz. vinyl. Heavy stuff and works very well in all the operations I do with it. But they have a thinner vinyl called Naugasoft which is a 28 oz. vinyl that I've been very pleased with. It has a very strong backing which looks the same as what Morbern has been using for many years, kind of a "fuzzy" knit back. It molds itself well and since it stretches more and is less bulky than Spirit, I like it for times when a thicker vinyl could be a problem as in multiple layering around seams.
So, although thicker as a general rule, is better, it's not always the best. I think vinyl formulation and backing also play a big part.
Rich