Carpentry assistance

[MTupguy]

So in my previous thread (mark-up vs. labor prices) I mention that I need carpentry work done for the piece I'm bidding.  Two approaches here... ahve general contractor sub it out, or I sub it out.  If he does it it should be his cost, correct?  If I do it, then do I bill it as/is? Do I bill it with a little mark-up  for my time and effort of arranging it? Since I have to design the vessel which I will be covering and attaching to an already built and finished booth/breakfast nook, I must charge for my time to design, right?  What if I design more than one way to skin this cat?  Do I charge for all design time, or just for the "winning" design?  God, I'm SUCH a NEWBIE!!! Once again, thanks for any help with this topic!!!

[Rich]

If you worked for someone else and he asked you to put in two days on a job, but he'd only pay you for the half day that HE charged the customer for, would you be happy with that?
I didn't think you would, you'd want to get paid for the full two days. He would charge the customer for ALL the costs he incurred no matter how many hours he invoiced it as. You should do the same. If you spend 5 hours coming up with a workable design and 3 hours building it, you must account for your 8 hour time investment.
I call this prototype work as in when a manufacturing company spends many hours designing something that they will then produce great numbers of. Each unit then shares the cost of R&D time so a profit is made. But when a custom builder is doing this for only ONE piece, then ALL of the R&D time has to be reflected in the price for that piece and yes, it can become an expensive piece, but that is why custom work is not for everyone.
Does this help?
Rich

[MTupguy]

Yeah, it helps in how I figure MY time and how to charge for it.  If I sub out the woodworking portion of it, though, do I charge straight across what the woodworker did for me or do I charge more for having to arrange that?  I'm pretty sure if I design this thing that the general contractor would have no problemdoing this with his own people, then I wouldn't have to charge a dime for fabrication, just the design time, eh?

[JuneC]

IMHO, you need to add a good margin for the subcontractor's work for several reasons - you did the design, you found the subcontractor, you'll pay the subcontractor (and have to deal with the accounting of that financial transaction), you bear the risk of the job not being exactly what you ordered, you bear the liability risk in the event of the structure failing and someone getting injured.  In a perfect world, you'd only upcharge his work to cover your design time, but this isn't a perfect world...

June

[Rich]

IMHO, you need to add a good margin for the subcontractor's work for several reasons - you did the design, you found the subcontractor, you'll pay the subcontractor (and have to deal with the accounting of that financial transaction), you bear the risk of the job not being exactly what you ordered, you bear the liability risk in the event of the structure failing and someone getting injured.  In a perfect world, you'd only upcharge his work to cover your design time, but this isn't a perfect world...

Couldn't have said it any better than that.
Rich

[Rich]

Oh there is one thing I might add;
If the carpenter who does the work for you is acting on the anticipation of a continued business relationship with you, he should offer a discount. You could consider charging your customer what he normally charges an end user for this work and keep the difference as the markup on his work.
Rich

[MTupguy]

Right on!  I knew joining this message board would do more than have my wife yell at me to get off the computer!  All input is greatly appreciated, keep it coming if your new to this thread... I've got a lot to learn about the biz side of this industry!

[scottymc]

Oh there is one thing I might add;
If the carpenter who does the work for you is acting on the anticipation of a continued business relationship with you, he should offer a discount. You could consider charging your customer what he normally charges an end user for this work and keep the difference as the markup on his work.
Rich

I've seen a lot of threads where everyone is complaining about people asking for discounts with the promise of more work, when the carpenter eventually get's paid his full worth, where are you going to get your mark up from?
I suggest that you treat the tradesman you work with the way you would expect to be treated yourself.

[Rich]

I've seen a lot of threads where everyone is complaining about people asking for discounts with the promise of more work, when the carpenter eventually get's paid his full worth, where are you going to get your mark up from?
I suggest that you treat the tradesman you work with the way you would expect to be treated yourself.

Sounds like your assuming that the carpenter cuts every job to the bare minimum and has no room to give a trade discount. Maybe that's the case, but if he does both a retail and a trade business, he probably realizes that not having to sell to a new customer every time has time and expense benefits that he could pass on to someone who returns with more work on a fairly regular basis. Now, he may, justifiably ask full price for the first or second job and then consider a trade discount when he sees that this really is a repeat situation. Anyway, it was a suggestion for how to price the job to the end user.
Rich

[scottymc]

yeah Rich, but you are a larger business, this guy is small and dealing with a small guy.

[MTupguy]

Well guys, I just hope that the gen. contractor I'm dealing with will do it for me and then it's his cost and I don't have to worry, I think i can bend some hardboard into a quarter-circle, but think there may be a "higher-end" way to make the back of this booth seat.  I just don't have the tools, and a minimal amount of experience doing it... I know my former employer and his woodworking friends had some special arrangements, and someday, if all goes well for me, I'll have those kind of business relationships too. Then I can be one of the big boys! ;D

[kodydog]

Oh there is one thing I might add;
If the carpenter who does the work for you is acting on the anticipation of a continued business relationship with you, he should offer a discount. You could consider charging your customer what he normally charges an end user for this work and keep the difference as the markup on his work.
Rich

I get some business from a refinisher in town. If he sends the coustomer to me there is no discount. But if he handles the whole job (P/u, del, billing, fabric selection, ect) he gets a discount. He does the same for me when I bring him work.

[kodydog]

Well guys, I just hope that the gen. contractor I'm dealing with will do it for me and then it's his cost and I don't have to worry, I think i can bend some hardboard into a quarter-circle, but think there may be a "higher-end" way to make the back of this booth seat.  I just don't have the tools, and a minimal amount of experience doing it... I know my former employer and his woodworking friends had some special arrangements, and someday, if all goes well for me, I'll have those kind of business relationships too. Then I can be one of the big boys! ;D

Hardboard should work. Sounds like your making a curved back. Take a picture of the frame and maybe we can give you some suggestions.