Antique Frames worn out

[baileyuph]

Situation-

walnut chair frames (over a 100 yrs) literally worn out in the path of tacking and performing gimp nailing.  Need tips on replacing the tack paths where this type of deterioration exist.

The process envisioned is - remove the components in need of repair, saw out or cut the bad areas out somehow and replace with new wood.  Then reassemble frames for the reupholstering process.  Hopefully, leaving the current exposed finished parts and carving untouched.

Sawing will be necessary near finished show wood and carvings, so a very detailed project is in order.  The preferred medium will be walnut but it isn't essential since the installed upholstery, webbing,  and trim will cover these areas.

Any experience or references specific to this level of restoration could be beneficial, feel free to share.

Doyle

[kodydog]

I'll generally force glue in to the old tack holes and clamp the wood to squeeze it back together, then let it thoroughly dry. Sounds like what your working on is beyond that. In which case what your planing sounds like the right method to me.

[Joys Shop]

can you post pictures of the chairs and the damaged parts?

[MinUph]

If the top sections still have shape to them but are split and will not hold tacks and the bottom sections are just split. I would repair this with sawdust and white glue. The sawdust needs to be fairly fine. I find my band saw dust works best. Mix up a paste use plenty of white glue and work this into all the cracks and crevices in the wood. You can shape the top section of the rail to add to the existing. Trick is to work it in good. A small putty knife works well. Once this dries generally overnight it will hold tacks and staples just fine. Even webbing. It will be rough so file it down to make it smooth before using the repaired pieces.
  Glue alone will do nothing to fill cracks and missing wood.
  Tearing down the piece to saw off bad wood and replace with good is not a great idea unless there is no other way. You will be working on a glue joint that may fail if not cut perfectly.
  I've done this countless times and it never failed. Just make sure it is all dry before using it.
 

[needles eye]

Hi Mate;

Had a quick look at your website, that is, being because I'm the curious sort.

In BIKE SEATS  "If a stitching design is designated I will draw on the material and send you a picture of it for your OK before proceeding. All custom work in non refundable."

In MARINE  "Only marine grade vinyl. UV safe threads, and stainless steel fasteners are used in the marine work. Don't be fooled by others that may lesson the quality here. This is very important.

Other fasteners will rust. Galvanized steel will last awhile but will rust in a marine environment."

Spotted 3(three) typos - in bike seats all custom work IS non refudable
                                       and,  in marine  LESSEN  the quality here
                                       further,  will last A WHILE

There may be some more typos, and, it's your business if you're inclined to have another look.
Thanking you for the great tip about mixing up sawdust and glue for repair work.
Cheers.

[mike802]

These are all good suggestions, depending on the amount of damage that has to be repaired.  Often I will use hide glue to fill staple holes.  I use a joiner to get a perfect glue joint when the tacking part of a frame has to be replaced.  My preferred wood is soft maple, its plenty strong and will not chip out when removing staples in the future.  A well made glue joint running with the grain should last a lifetime.

[alge]

hello mike I'm a the same point on some early victorian library chairs that have been reupholstered possibly twice but covered maybe four times, the mahogany is shot to bits on the short grain areas at the the front of the arms and there is no meat to work with so i have a filler quandry, for what its worth this i what i do.

Mix fine saw dust with p.v.a glue for normal tack hole filling and a bit of light filling of break out.

Use a mouldable filler that remains flexible for the larger holes

If the rail is inside and i need a good fixing into it and a concealed joint means i cant prise the rails out i bandage them in fine linen scrim or ticking then apply a healthy amount of pva glue over the top (exactly as though you were fixing a plaster cast in a hospital), some Georgian wing backs have a version of this as the early frame backs were on occasion made by coopers from pine/spruce and the wood was too bouncy to hold a tack and the animal/fish glue with scrim deadened it enough for the hammer to strike the tack home rather than bounce back at you.

if the break out is on the inside edge of a rail i will use strips of 4mm flexi ply and build a laminate support on the rail stapling each layer using thixotropic glue as i go, when its dry i fill any dips holes using either one of the above.

If the Antique is too valuable and it would be a crime to plant anything onto the inside of the rail and if the budget is expansive enough to have a go a cutting away the old tacking part then laminating a new tacking rail is ultimately the most credible way of  tacking it. We once cut a rail down the middle in three layers, the face of the rail and the back of the rail were kept and laminated onto the new core because everyone who had worked on the chaise over 140 years had written something in pencil on the rail and we wanted to keep it for the next upholsterers to find.

Hope that helps

Alex

[Joys Shop]

Whenever I recover an antique, I leave notes on the inside
I put the date I recovered it
any repairs I made- and how I made them, and what glue I used
I leave a sample of the fabric that I took off, and indicate whether it was the original fabric or not
If I find any pieces of the fabric that was on it before the previous recovering, I indicate what they are, and put them there also

I did a 200 year old chair once, and some of the OLD tacks were still in the chair---I put those inside also

If I used a tootsie roll filler on it, I will take the product label that came with the tube, and put it inside the chair
Sometimes, I will put pictures of the before, and of the process, inside also

I will also note any instructions the owner of the piece gave me, because, sometimes, they are contrary to what SHOULD have been done

If I had to remove any piece of the antique, if I can, I will put the broken piece back into the furniture
maybe someone, someday, will want to put it back in (if they can fix it better than I could)

I put this all into the outside back of the furniture

[needles eye]

Hi,

sincere thanks for the continuing great woodworking tips ladies and gents.
Pertaining to -
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
http://www.mjamsdenfurniture.com

Good site; currently appears with minor typographical errors manifest. Click on PRODUCTS being in top banner, goes to STORE HOME  page, and, says, "Welcome", then the fifth  sentence states "We plan on updating this section on a regular BASES,.
[that is, instead of basis].
Moreover go to "Throw Pillows" being on same PRODUCTS page, first sentance says ..Waverly cotton leaf pattern... it is suggested then needs a comma instead of a full stop and a space for the next word  being "free".

Cheerio, my eyes are probably better than you sheilas and fellas coz i haven't been staring at needles all to long. 
:o

"The best way to destroy your enemy is make him your friend." - Abraham Lincoln

[scottymc]

Curious to know if any of you when doing an antique re-do them using tacks, as it was pointed out to me by a trade teacher that it is best to do with staples as they leave less damage to the piece so it is able to be reupholstered more times and if you want it to be authentic anything visible could be done in tacks.

Needles feel free to spell check my website , so I can send it on to the bloke who built it. ;)  

[Joys Shop]

I use staples on antiques
they do less damage than tacks

Would only used tacks if I were doing a restoration

[baileyuph]

Work has started on the chair.  It looks like I have three parts that need attentionl

The first piece to repair is the side frame, front to back.  This piece gets the stapled to it at the bottom edge and the spring ties, fabric, and double cord will be attached at the top.  The bottom edge was split by a webbing tack.  That split is gone.  So I will run it through the saw two times to create a rabbit effect, then cut and insert a replacement piece.    

The second piece is the rear frame between the two legs.  It too was split off and needs a similar treatment.  However this one will need one dowel hole drilled, the other three are reusable.

The third piece is the front frame piece and it is curved.  I am planning on filling and sanding to bring it back.  New dowels are in order for all the joints.

Thanks for all the good tips, actually I will use a little of all your comments in this job.  
There is a place that can be filled with saw dust and glue.  

Regarding using the joiner, yes so far I see a couple places that will require that tool.  The dowel centering devices will be useful for drilling new dowel holes.

On this one, there are no lathe requirements, which is good because I may be able to pull this off with only minor finish touch up.

The tip on using soft maple for interior frame repairs are noted.  The characteristics of that wood can be beneficial on a future job.  Walnut is laying around my wood equipment for use on this chair.

The customer has another chair, identical, waiting until this one is finished.

Regarding using tacks, I almost always do not because of the damage they do.  I even staple the webbing, save that frame!

Enclosing the history of the chair and what has been done to it are clever.  
I don't have anything to pass along as an amateur or two must have worked on this chair before me.  

Any other thoughts, add them.

Fun stuff!

Doyle


 

[MinUph]

Curious to know if any of you when doing an antique re-do them using tacks, as it was pointed out to me by a trade teacher that it is best to do with staples as they leave less damage to the piece so it is able to be reupholstered more times and if you want it to be authentic anything visible could be done in tacks.

  Ya know after spitting tacks for maybe 15 years or more before I went to a stapler it took a long time to go all the way. Now I wonder how some of the frames handled all the pounding of tacks. I do still like to spring up with 16 oz. tacks. I find them to work best over those fat so-called spring up nails.
  I also use tacks for other purposes where a gun won't fit or I think a tack will do a better job. But not just because it is an antique.

[scottymc]

so what are spring up nails?

[alge]

Ahh the old staples verses tack and vice versa debate.

As to when and where to use which, i dont get too hung up about it.

I trust my judgement as to the condition of the frame, a lot of you guys appear to be into your 30th- 40th-50th year on the bench. You know if a rail is too fragile to take a tack or not, or if the budget will stretch to tacks or not.

We are in the main i think Upholsterers and not museum conservators, they [conservators] tend to take the least invasive approach possible and dont do restoration most of what we do would probably be considered a crime.

Follow this link to an article written by one of my co directors at the AMUSF,but for a different trade association. It makes a lot of sense to me and tends to go along the general view i have.

http://www.bafra.org.uk/html_pages/articles_reupholstery.html

What are we going to do when someone invents something better than staples?  :o