Over time reading here, the subject of bobbin wrap has come up and seems there is a correlation of it and top loading machines. Example(s); the 111W155 and Consew 225.
I ask this question because I have this machine as well as several others and on occasion my top loader did offer bobbin wrap, primarily on start up.
BTW, the top loader type I have used for many years and it is a favorite, if you will. Not all have been bobbin wrap guilty.
This issue was on my mind and after studying a mechanics manual on the machine, a thorough examination to insure tensions settings and alignments to verify such on my machine I believe it has paid off; no wrap.
With that short background I thought my understanding might be enhanced of this issue by seeking others have learned that might point to the main cause(s).
I made a couple of adjustments on my top bobbin loader and spend some time trying to cause bobbin wrap but couldn't.
I should have brought the name of the manual I worked from (its at the business) for it surely will be of interest.
Like explained, anyone with some good experience on this subject would be interesting.
Doyle
This can be a tough question, I called a professional service business, they put in a new hook and something else, can't remember. But, that didn't help.
This wrapping isn't a design problem, I used these machines for years without the problem. It does seem to be something technical that maybe some do not understand.
I found a manual and am memorizing it, LOL. Actually, there are a couple points made that I do know were not addressed. Gotta get to the bottom of this, top loaders are not inheriently a problem, like I said, they do and can work. It is easy to trash something in defense of not understanding. I sewed too many miles without a problem on a 111W155, it was a very reliable and great sewing machine. Years ago, I read that the bottom loader, like everything else in society was replacing the top loader because it was cheapr to build.
When this cold weather gets better with clear roads (too icy under a foot of snow now) I am going to improve my service procedure using this great tech manual and maybe a dummy like me will learn something.
As they say; "nothing is hard if you know the answer". I like that one. Sometimes a lot of truth in this.
Stay warm everyone,
Doyle
After spending hours reviewing the tech manual, I had the opportunity to tear into my Consew 225 (essentially a copy of the 111W155, 156 etc, also Consew 226), yesterday.
I removed the hook, disassembled the upper arm shaft, wire reinforced belt (not the motor pully belt), and just about everything around the needle plate/feed dog and more, attacking issues that might be related to bobbin wrap. I knew, being inexperienced at this, it would consume time and it did. After two hours, applying manual instructions and gathering deeper understanding in the process, I put everything back together, setting to spec. When I got done, there were no left over parts on the work table and after head was hooked up in table, it actually worked!!!!
The machine had a different sound, sounded like a new machine and the wrap was gone!!!
The key was understanding every word in the manual.
This experience is recommended for anyone with a vertical axis bobbin machine that is a knock-off of the 111W series Singer. I had to go through this after having two or was it three tech guys, making their living in this work, tasked to resolve this issue of "bobbin wrap". I learned just how technical these industrial machines can be and how important for them to be set up right.
Doyle
So, do you know what SPECIFICALLY was the culprit? Or did you just "take everything apart and put everything back together" to fix the problem?
I don't think I would have the patience.
I know what you mean by the "different sound" of a well-adjusted machine.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bobbin wrap"
but
I have a Consew 225
when I sew slowly, the thread gets caught on the hook
and, of course, the times you slow down is when you are really concerned about getting sewing right
and those are the times the thread gets caught in the hook and causes a mess
the thread doesn't have enough "umph" to get around the bobbin
it happens when I'm trying to draw the bobbin thread up after changing the bobbin too.
I have to give the hand wheel a strong spin to get the thread to loop around the bobbin
Otherwise it only goes half away around, and have to pull the thread out and rethread the needle
you right joy it happened to me somtimes when I slow or pause then a tangle
doyle it has warmed up here considerably
but not enough for me to go out fishing yet .
Quotedoyle it has warmed up here considerably
but not enough for me to go out fishing yet .
Yes, Mike, I was thinking about you just yesterday when I heard the temp down there was going to drop and maybe put some citrus crops in danger. Mike, you recall the cold you lived with in the NE, well we have had some of the coldest weather in 20 years, like Tim the boat guy explained. If I could have transitioned to Florida a day or so ago, I probably would have jumped, it was so excruitating. Today was a wet cold, but I forced myself to go and do some work. I have a pretty long list of items waiting.
If the Florida offer had included fishing, I might have done the unimaginable. You guys have the nicest winters, it seems. Couple that with fishing (learning how for me), I might have touched the "go" button. I just remembered, we are supposed to get 3 more inches of snow by the end of the week. Oh well, I got my pride and joy Consew going, like it was when new. I have a number of other machines but this one is definitely one of my favorites.
What kind of fish do you usually catch Mike? I went on one of those chartered deep sea fishing trips once, near NY, and we caught fish called Whitings. That was a way different experience for a guy who fished for crappie in the old river beds and bass along smaller lake banks during spawning season (early April here). But, deep sea fishing was a learning experience in more ways than one.
Hope it warms up for you Mike,
Doyle
QuoteSo, do you know what SPECIFICALLY was the culprit? Or did you just "take everything apart and put everything back together" to fix the problem?
Yes, it was in essence the timing of the upper arm shaft function with the hock system. I mentioned that a couple of machine techs worked on it but they check tensions and hook to needle timing only. They were experienced technicians, but it seems, looking back, that they were in a hurry. Understadable because I spent considerable time going through the systems myself. From now on, I won't have to call anyone, except maybe for parts.
I might mention that I had previously, when trying to correct for the problem, gone through all tension systems, seemed to help but eventually wrapping would show up which became frustrating as it effected my production work. The impetus to "do something" was based on recalling how the machine sewed when new several years ago. I couldn't give up - so pleased with the situation now.
Joy, your situation sounds just like mine at times. First I checked all tension functions, upper thread, lower thread bobbin. In the check, I verified whether there were parts required in these checks. Then, the take up lever spring tension was reviewed. Here you not only check tension strength, tension duration is equally important. You would think that is simple to do, it is, but only after you have the answer for how to do it.
The timing of the lower hook, was next checked. Then, the head was pulled and turned over. Here I learned about the timing of the upper arm system with the lower hook system, I noted it was off. This out of time situation led previous machine guys to try compensating by making adjustments to the hook timing, they got close but it still led to the problems you expressed.
Like said, good experience, it led to needle centering in the feed dog plate, adjusting pressure feet lift height and feet pressure on feed dog plate.
The clincher was finding the timing check discussed above off. Part of that was contributed to the hand wheel belt being off.
It was worth the effort!!
If I can help, I will try.
doyle
Quote from: DB on January 09, 2014, 05:28:56 pm
What kind of fish do you usually catch Mike? I went on one of those chartered deep sea fishing trips once, near NY, and we caught fish called Whitings. That was a way different experience for a guy who fished for crappie in the old river beds and bass along smaller lake banks during spawning season (early April here). But, deep sea fishing was a learning experience in more ways than one.
grouper snapper and mackerel and sharks
ive fished offshore mostly doyle till I moved to a canal in the harbor here ive been setting my boat up for inshore fisbing around the mangroves for snook and redsish but after the move ive been so busy remodeling my house and recovering my health I havkt had the time needed to devote my time seriously to it so I have done best with sharks in the harbor and catfish and sheepheads of my dock
sharkbait
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Fpkpyq1sar%2F100_2066.jpg&hash=a10dfe2ca2be28b930069fd2e5f4420a) (http://postimg.org/image/pkpyq1sar/)
baby spinner shark
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Fmt6ozfts3%2Fphoto_edited.jpg&hash=06ed38adaec13fb496ae2df24bcb1b64) (http://postimg.org/image/mt6ozfts3/)
heres a old pic of my 0sn with a sheepshead
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Fdamdejeyr%2FDSCN0057.jpg&hash=5f76dc1566e1d6533e387a260d02ad34) (http://postimg.org/image/damdejeyr/)
Joy,
What you describe is pretty similar to my fixed problem, I would keep trying to sew and the thread would start wrapping around the lower part of the bobbin case. To sew, I took a seam ripper and picked the thread out, then when clean it would sew. But, like yours, the slowing, the stopping and starting would bring the problem back.
On yours, it might pay to run your hand over the bobbing hook where it seems to hang up to check for any metal burrs the thread might be catching on.
I am convinced, it can be fixed Joy. I bought my machine new and the first 10 or 15 years it sewed without a glitch. Then, I had it worked on a couple times for some reason, can't remember, but it never was perfect again. It sure is sewing nice now, reminds me of the good old days!
If you find any burrs let me know.
Doyle
Years ago, I sewed on a Juki 562. My Grandmother (who started the business) was still alive at the time. She still did some sewing for us in her 80's.
I never, ever, ever, ever had one moment of trouble with that machine. Never had bobbin wrap......ever.
It would take my Grandmother exactly one nanteenth of a second to achieve the "mother of all bobbin wraps". She was used to her old 16-188, and no other machine would suit her. Sometimes, I think that she got the thread tangled up on purpose (trying to coax me in to dragging the old Singer out of storage).
She insisted the Juki was the biggest POS ever made.
Great info Doyle . . . too bad you don't live closer I would bring you my machine for a go round with your new found skills :D
My question is if you have such a detailed manual is it in a digital format that could be posted and shared? I have found some manuals online but they are general versions for end users not technician level. I too have had some bobbin wrap problems and would love to refine my Consew as well . . . seems my issue is when shifting from forward to reverse and back again.
Marlo
I have a bottom loader, and had a problem with bobbin wrap. I noticed it was happening shortly after changing the bobbin. So I adjusted my winder to stop winding a bit sooner and haven't had the problem since.
Marlo,
My tech document is in print, it was printed probably about the time the machine was manufactured. It is technical, for sure. I read it over and over, each time understanding a bit more.
From others on the site, there may be some good technicians in the business, problem is they are there and we are here or they just retired!
Bobbin back in the Eastern area has remarked she has one great tech guy, she is lucky.
In my area, there were a number of them several years ago, I don't know who I would call and trust today and this is a relatively large city.
Doyle
QuoteYears ago, I sewed on a Juki 562. My Grandmother (who started the business) was still alive at the time. She still did some sewing for us in her 80's.
I never, ever, ever, ever had one moment of trouble with that machine. Never had bobbin wrap......ever.
It would take my Grandmother exactly one nanteenth of a second to achieve the "mother of all bobbin wraps". She was used to her old 16-188, and no other machine would suit her.
Oh!, Dennis you sized that one right, that 16-188 (also my first machine) was a real hammer. Your grandmother was right also, but you know, she could get performance out of that machine that others couldn't because she knew it. They were very strong machines, much simpler to deal with (relative statement because they too have specs). On my 16-188 the best thing I could do for it was keep it oiled and threaded, it would hammer all day. It had/has a needle range about the same as the machines we all use, a big one or a very small one depending on what you were going to sew and thread required. I actually made convertible tops (auto) with my 16-188. Put a bigger needle in and grab heavier thread (treated cotton mostly back then some nylon) and go at it. I am with your grandmother on that one, drop of oil and go! Parts were cheap for them also.
The Juki 562, you reference is one sweet machine. The 563 is also; you know most of those old Singers/Japanese machines/Pfaff are all great machines. Any machine can present a problem, but the intrinsic quality there is about as good as it gets.
Readers should understand that the info we are giving is based on our experience, if one wishes to endeavor in leather work, for example; when I say leather I refer to saddle, harness, and shoes, then please understand - someone like Darren is the "man". They are a different breed of machines, because from his remarks and what I read, they were great then (when built) and still are unsurpassed today, in many respects! Maybe Darren can come on line and talk about those machines and the different type of beds they have. That, which can be a very interesting subject, I find those different arms interesting; cylinder, post, and so on. Why some of the machines Darren talked about in the past, you can sew any direction, a 360 degree direction and never turn the or rotate the leather. Interesting stuff! I think he mentioned some the operator powered, no motor.
Putting all that in contrast with todays machine technology (digital) will keep your mind boggled for a good while. Technology marches on!
Doyle
There is no bur on my bobbin hook
I sometiimes would use a friend's sewing machine (I can't remember what kind it was)
it was years ago
Whenever I used it, it would jam
but he would sit down at the machine to see what the problem was, and it would work perfectly
I would return to it, and it would jam
Never jammed for him, never worked for me
I pushed on the peddle the same as he did!!!!
Slow sewing like you commented will bring out the worst in a machine.
Next, another check is the tension areas. Upper, lower, and the needle take up tension.
Do you have the specs on the take up spring? That setting is a two part setting. One is tension and the other part is duration or tension which is largely related to needle position. Take up settings are important.
It is suggested that going through that check. There are more checks yet, don't get discouraged.
As a general comment, pull the feed dog plate and clean or verify that where the needle goes down is clean, fairly clean. Remove the upper tensions disc and clean also and while your at it, check condition of disc for burs and thread grove(s).
Did the guy you compared your sewing to sew faster than you did?
Just work your way through all the checks, it is worth the trip.
Doyle
I have a Juki LU 562, which has a smaller bobbin than the Juki LU 563. It never jams. I have occasionally spent time going through the manual and learned how to adjust the tension. I also will adjust the tension when I'm sewing thin fabrics.
My Zoji straight stitch (non walking foot machine) only needs the tension changed when I'm making zipper panels for boxed cushions. I turn the tension wheel 1 and 1/2 times and it's fined. I then turn it back 1 and 1/2 turns when I'm done.
Thanks for the info. We can save a lot of money by learning how to care for our machines ourselves. My sewing guy charges $75 per hour and if he comes to my studio the clock starts when he steps out the door of his building to get in his car.
gene
Anti-spin washers?
They're standard features on full function machines because the automatic backtack function can snarl thread lickety-split. They are available in several styles, too.
Quote from: bobbin on January 18, 2014, 07:26:32 am
Anti-spin washers?
That reminds me of something else to consider. The Juki Lu-1508 (top load) and the Juki DNU-1541 (bottom load) both use "M" style bobbins.
BUT, if you order metal bobbins for those 2 models and compare them side-by-side, the 1541 bobbins are slightly smaller than the 1508 bobbins.
A lady gave me a box of metal bobbins that she used on her 1541. I had that problem with them unwinding and getting tangled. I threw them away and immediately stopped having trouble. I'm sure that anti-spin washers would've also solved the problem.
Pre-wound paper shell bobbins can also vary in size, depending on the manufacturer.
The 1508 will accommodate a larger capacity bobbin ("U", I think) than will the 1541.
I "roll my own" and use the metal bobbins. And I know that the metal bobbins spin more do their prewound counterparts. My machine (1541N7) is a full function machine (automatic tack/trim) and because of that it came with an anti-spin washer. The automatic tack function is preset and because it's preset (and there is no adjustment of the speed with which the function occurs) there has to be a control over the revolutions the bobbin makes within the bobbin case.
Every single full function machine I've ever met has come set up with an anti-spin washer in the bobbin case. Every single one.
Anti-spin washers come in a variety of shapes... a "star" or a "u" shaped affair, and probably others, too. I've had issues with snarling on my 1541 and have investigated heavier duty anti-spin washers, but generally understand that fine tuning the anti-spin has more to do with tension adjustment than the relative "beef" of the anti-spin washer.
Bobbin spin or backlash, what machines are more prone to do this? Bobbin thread wrap (around outside of hook), has been stated to be an inherient issue with top loading upholstery machines. Since the intensive analysis and calibrations on a top loader I have, the problem has not occured. Very pleased with the outcome. I learned that correct hook timing and controlling thread tensions (there are more than two) are very important.
Back to bobbin spin, when a bobbin is placed in the case of an industrial sewer, it snaps in, wouldn't this lead to controlling "spin" or "backlash"? Also to point out that the case tension on the thread should keep the lockstitch under control. Similar to a casting rod, provides a brake.
Sometimes our machines seem simple, then I understand everything is if you have all the answers. Smile.
Doyle
Well I'll put my $0.02 in here.When the thread gets wrapped ubderneath it is usually a tension related issue or you are not holding the needle thread to first 3 stitches.If the tension(needle thread) is too loose,or not threaded correctly and you should take the upper discs apart maybe once a week (since some of this marine type of thread leaves alot of fuzz between the discs & can hold them open) & clean them.
HTH
Bob
Cleaning the tension disc, like Bob says is a likely contributor to sewing problems.
I have several machines and did exactly that and found that the thread lint/dirt (?), I call it dirt, lol, had caked up on the disc. Cleaned it out and the tension setting could be handled much more predictable. The stuff was caked in between the disc.
Speaking of disc, the threads many of us use today can cut a groove in the disc, another one of those aggravating tension problems.
Doyle
A comment: my top loader that I self schooled on trouble shooting the bobbin case wrap problem was used for a project yesterday and it was very pleasing to see that machine perform like I remember it could few years ago.
All I have to do is slip the materials under the needle and sew, no knotting or wrapping.
This machine was worked on by two different techs but they charge for up to an hour of work and just moved on. That was about $75 or so. The machine didn't seem to need parts each time. They improved it a bit but.....I knew it wasn't right, like it was when I bought it new.
When I read of the bashing the top loader was taking, my intuition was how can it be true they are inheriently bad about wrapping? Finally, I got an older tech manual decided it was time to understand it, not just read it. It took some time. The manual listed over 50 things to check, then I got to one that drew that........hmmmm from me. I got into calibrating the timing of the upper arm shaft with the lower base shaft because it was just a bit off. In essence, the tension of both threads can be perfect, the take up tension, but if these two main shafts, upper and lower aren't timed and belted that way, it causes the tension effects to be slightly off ..............while they may be set correctly (right tension).
No more bashing of top loaders - spend the time on getting the machine right from stem to stern.
As all this started out, the project yesterday went off like a swiss watch!
Doyle
I have had intermittent issues with bobbin "over spin" with my 1541, esp. with lighter weight threads. It happens most often with 46 and 69 weight. And it's always tension related. The hardest thing for me has been the "fine tuning" when moving from heavy weight thread (138) to lighter weights.
I always disliked having to hold threads for "take off" and that's one of the reasons I generally prefer horizontal axis bobbins; they tend to be gentler on "take off".
But I still struggle with "gag ups" after take off on my 1541. Sometimes it's great, other times it's a drag... and I'm still refining the "touch" on the tension that eliminates it. It takes time and thought, nothing more, nothing less!
Bobbin I have a question on your 1541 or I guess any machine might be the same, I was curious if you always used the metal bobbins or the paper type.
Im asking because I had the opportunity to use the basic 1541 for a couple weeks and thought it was pretty darn nice machine, anyway I was informed when using the paper type bobbin the spring for the basket is not required as I didn't realize that. Just wondering from you and others your opinions with this mention.
Good day
I always use the metal bobbins, brmax. I do so much home dec. work that requires specific thread colors and different size thread that it makes sense to "roll my own" bobbins. (I love my 1541!)