I was wondering how long it take most of you to do a 2'x2'x4" cushon with a zipper and you make the welting. to take the old one apart patturn, cut and sew. I know I am still stating out and am slow, just how slow I would like to know. will let you know later. how long it took me. thanks Don
Probly about 1/2 hr
but I'd charge 1 hr you didn't mention new foam I gueese just recovering
a 2 foot by 2 foot by 4 inch boxed welted cushion.
A guess about 2 hours to cut, sew and install the cushion. 2.5 if New foam and dacron.
Did I understand right. Some one said they could make it in about 1/2 hour?
Sorry if I offend. I just don't see how it can be done.
4x24x24 cushion
Get out the fabric
Lay it out
figure a pattern if need be
make sure you have enough fabric
Lay it out your pattern
Chalk out your pattern
Start cutting out 2 cushion tops, 2 widths of boxing, 5 width of welts, 2 zipper halfs.
Don't forget the register marks
Label your parts
Change the red thread before you sew to white to match the fabric
Now I need to readjust the tension on the machine with new color. ( I always do)
Start sewing
Sew on the welting to the top
Sew the welt to the bottom.
Sew up your zipper boxing
Sew the zipper boxing to the boxing
Bobbin ran out so change your bobbin
Now sew the zipper/boxing to the top/welting
Sew the bottom to the boxing/zipper
turn it rightside out
Make sure it all is lined up
Fix any thing that is not right
Grab the old foam core
Install it into the new cushion cover
Make sure the welting is all facing up and the seam is down.
Add a bit of padding to fill in the worn corners
Zip it closed
Fold up the left over fabric(or role if a lot)
Put it together with a bill
and call customer to pickup.
Yep. 27.5 minutes. I should have never questioned it.
OK , ok just having a little fun. Maybe is it doable but not by me.
Again sorry to offend if I did.
To me I found it a little offensive to say it could be done in about 1/2 hour. But maybe?
sorry again no hard feelings I hope. If so I'm again out of turn.
But for me I'm guessing 2 hours from start to out the door.
You forget a fussy pattern match, possibly a strip to make it worse.
I would go with the 2 hour estimate, especially if it is with fussy fabric.
Eliminate the cording, and in a solid non fussy fabric, using old foam but in good condition, if I am on my game, it could take me a bit over an hour. Some fabrics and stable vinyls can be easier to sew than fabrics that can be dealt with in furniture.
A boat seat, where cover is stapled to base, no welting and no top stitching at the seam, may take me 45 minutes if the foundation is in pretty good shape and I don't screw up. ;)
Time will vary for most workers as there are so many things that influence speed. Phone can ring three or four times or not at all. Another point, not to forget, is the sales and delivery time can easily be a half hour.
Usually a job like a chair/couch cushion, I can get into consternation about the foam to properly use to satisfy customer demands. Some want 3.0 density while another will require something even higher density. All these things are details that to properly serve the customer will drive the time.
Where one can gain efficiency is having a requirement for dupes of the same. That is a good way the average time can be much less.
A small custom shop is not normally an assembly line.
Doyle
Too many factors to consider. I've done 'em in a 1/2 hour. I've taken nearly 2 hours. Depends on shape, and pattern.
But with a plain fabric, and simple dimensions, a 1/2 hour isn't far off for me.
These times can vary depending on whether you're doing several, or just one cushion.
But since I don't answer to anyone, I really don't keep a close track of my time.
Some days, the daily commuter puzzle takes 25 minutes, other days, only 15.
Geeze I was thinking a marine seat with a mesh bottom and the material laying on thebtable ready to go.
I'd cut the old skin off with a blade trace the foam for the top plate shOe then trace the top ate to the mesh bottom. Sew a zipper onto it the make my 8. Of welt with 2 1/2 strips of the vinyl to sew it would take what 2 mins. Sew it on cut the boxing at the same time as the welt same length. Sew the boxing to the top plate then sew the bottom on my ref marks would be my four corner 2' apart Wrap the foam in slipeze and stuff it in def not 1 hr.
That's vinyl no pattern old foam a d no Dacron
if it was on plywood then you have more Time to set up and cut the wood.
Glue and time to set up and staple the vinyl and bydem about an gour more
Don't forget ynderlayment or mesh on the wood.
I was going to say , how on earth can you do that in 1/2 hr Mike :-0
I recon a small cushion takes about the same time as a large one
within 1/2 hr or so ?
Rich
Nice reality check bonehead. Sometimes when your figuring how long it takes to do something or giving an estimate you forget all the little stuff involved to complete the project.
I could sew that cushion in 1/2 hour. But there is a lot more involved than just sewing.
If its just one cushion charge a little more. If it's several cushions all in the same fabric it should take a little less time per cushion.
I did not say it was imposable. I said I could not do it. Yet ;D
But, it got me thinking of if it is possible, how would one do it?
One ideas is since welt is 1.5 inches cut. A boxing is usually 5-6 inches cut. Zipper boxing again a standard part cut to height in half inch increments.
Would it save time to have templates?
But not cardboard templates but clear plexiglass templates so you can see how the pattern would fit? To say so myself I thought, "Hay, that might be a good idea."
Just an idea to take the standard processes and make templates and processes that would speed it up.
Thinking out loud here, but how would you make the same 24x24x4 boxed welted cushion 1000 times as easy and quickly as one could?
1. templates
2. Templates from Clear plexiglass to help with patterning
3. I might make all cushions whole number not 1/2 numbers. No more 4.5 or 5.5 cushions. 4,5,6 only.
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
Please help with 4, 5, and 6 if you can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing
Cut sew and fill 1.5 hrs. Plain pattern by measurements.
I've often thought that boxing and welting strips could be cut quickly by simply slicing the rolled-up fabric. Probably wouldn't work so well with wovens, but with vinyl, it should be possible with the right tool and blade. Having templates in fixed widths and cutting with a rotary cutter would probably be the next best thing.
June
Bonehead, what about when you went to zip up the cushion cover, you found that you had forgotten to put the zipper pull on the !#@$ zipper. Need to add a few more minutes maybe?
Not that I have ever done that.
gene
Quote from: gene on October 09, 2011, 07:20:00 pm
Bonehead, what about when you went to zip up the cushion cover, you found that you had forgotten to put the zipper pull on the !#@$ zipper. Need to add a few more minutes maybe?
Not that I have ever done that.
And what about when you realize that the customer wanted the OTHER side out?
Ever done that? Me neither. ;)
Well for me it was not a smiple chusion. I had no paterns it was a seat that had strps with snap to hold the bottom down and the top went over a tube frame. with snaps to go around the tubing. the sitting side was a imatasion sheeps wool with pleats sewn in to sewfoam. the othe side in cloth. the sides with vinyl. it had a double back for the tubing to slide in between the cloth and the vinyl back. using a thead riper. it took me 4 hours to tear it apart. and another 12 to cut, sew and i had to repair the foam by glueing new over the top. yes I knew I was slow i just was wanted to know how slow. i am glad I plan to do this for my self and freind. i retire december 31 this year and will have to see how my projects come out as to wether i will try to make money or keep as a hobby thanks Don
Quote from: gene on October 09, 2011, 07:20:00 pm
Bonehead, what about when you went to zip up the cushion cover, you found that you had forgotten to put the zipper pull on the !#@$ zipper. Need to add a few more minutes maybe?
Not that I have ever done that.
gene
Zipper glide. Add 1 hour 32 minutes and 11 seconds.
Quote from: Mike8560 on October 09, 2011, 08:00:09 pm
June I tried cutting a roll of vinyl once I used my chopsaw it has a metal cutting wheel I used it to cut pipe but it made a nice cut on the vinyl kinda burne the cardboard tube
With thinking it over more, I wish there was a table you could put a yard of fabric on and it could cut out x number of welts. Or adjust it to cut boxing.
What makes upholstery so difficult is time. We still cut fabric, sew fabric, staple, and so forth pretty much how it has been done for about 50 years.
As in most industries there has been some kind of technological advantage. Upholstery is still a very labor and skill dependent job and business. Am I just missing something? It just takes so much time and I'm not 23 anymore and able to work full bore all day every day. The last innovation I can think of is the Pneumatic staple gun.
Still so labor centered to do a great job.
Quote from: byhammerandhand on October 09, 2011, 05:15:08 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing
I did not read the whole article but I know enough about economics to fill in the gaps.
I can go on for hours on this.
Lean Manufacturing and the pursuit of "Value."
Here comes a tangent. Sorry I'm just made this way.
Yes a bit over the top, but I don't mean to harm just express a fight and frustration.
I have been beating my head on that one for over 18 years when I first started studying business and marketing.
Yes, how do you create value for your customer other then price, which is what most new furniture stores are doing today?
Pretty much any good upholsterer can win the quality game and add real value to an older well made frame, but how do you explain and line up that value with cheap?
Again, I have been beating my brains out with this question for years.
If people really know the value of what is sold today as a sofa or chair, and how it is designed to last 3 to 5 year and replaced in 5 to 7 what would happen?
I've done my best to educate but most people don't understand until 3 to 5 years after they buy that sofa and tossed out the well made 1950s sofa because $2500 was crazy when they can buy one for $1200 new. Is the e really a big difference they may ask themselves.
We know there is.
Value of cheap and buy now pay later.
OK I'm done.
Thank you.
Quote from: OneBoneHead on October 09, 2011, 09:23:58 pm
With thinking it over more, I wish there was a table you could put a yard of fabric on and it could cut out x number of welts. Or adjust it to cut boxing.
I've often thought that a set up like a draftsmans drawing board that has a parallel rule and a sliding knife along the rule would work
it would make cutting welt and boxing a breeze.
http://www.graphicsdirect.co.uk/products/classic-drawing-board
Rich
What makes upholstery so difficult "to make money" is how much time it takes to do things..
I've had my shop for 7 years now. Many times I have talked with upholsterers' who have been in the business for 25 or 30 years. I'll share with them a technique that takes me hours to complete. Their comment is often "Me too." That's kind of depressing.
I think a more recent innovation than the pneumatic staple gun is accounting software such as Quickbooks.
I have a clear plastic template guide that I use for pillow covers. It goes from 12" to 30". I used to use a ruler and chalk. Now I lay the guide on my fabric, center whatever I want to center, than mark through the holes in the template. I do a lot of pillow covers and this saves me a lot of time.
With my background in the packaging industry I am constantly looking for ways to save time.
gene
Quote from: OneBoneHead on October 09, 2011, 09:23:58 pm
Quote from: Mike8560 on October 09, 2011, 08:00:09 pm
June I tried cutting a roll of vinyl once I used my chopsaw it has a metal cutting wheel I used it to cut pipe but it made a nice cut on the vinyl kinda burne the cardboard tube
With thinking it over more, I wish there was a table you could put a yard of fabric on and it could cut out x number of welts. Or adjust it to cut boxing.
What makes upholstery so difficult is time. We still cut fabric, sew fabric, staple, and so forth pretty much how it has been done for about 50 years.
I have a friend who for a short time worked at a firemans suit factory.
Nit sewing or anything like that. But he said they had a table that the fabric was on and a computir ut all the pieces on A big plotter cutte. Like vinyl lettering.
As in most industries there has been some kind of technological advantage. Upholstery is still a very labor and skill dependent job and business. Am I just missing something? It just takes so much time and I'm not 23 anymore and able to work full bore all day every day. The last innovation I can think of is the Pneumatic staple gun.
Still so labor centered to do a great job.
Quote from: daveich on October 09, 2011, 07:38:46 pm
it took me 4 hours to tear it apart. and another 12 to cut, sew and i had to repair the foam by glueing new over the top. yes I knew I was slow i just was wanted to know how slow. i am glad I plan to do this for my self and freind. i retire december 31 this year and will have to see how my projects come out as to wether i will try to make money or keep as a hobby thanks
If it takes 4 hours just to take the old one apart, then I would say "Hobby". ;D
Good discussion on cutting time in the shop.
For furniture, the template Gene talks is a not bad tool.
For larger squares and rectangles, I have used a calibrated abscissa on a table, base line effect and then, an ordinate axis can be obtained to a desired dimension to complete the rectangle. This speeds things up, but of course a digital coordinatograph is the cats meow! punch in the abscissa and the oridinate and the coordintograph draws out the rectangular size desired. Of course, the next option is hook a cutter to the device and it is ready for sewing. One can quickly use their imagination and see this actually taking care of boxing and even cording requirements. Down side is cost, unless the volume is there to support it. Then, it actually cost not to be equipped.
Going digital is the way to be equipped and then the system would lend itself to supporting any geometric, for example circles. Coordinates are all that is needed. These are primarily plane geometry issues.
It would be interesting to have the cost for some of these ideas. Maybe it would or not be a surprise?
Doyle
Well, this would be nice, but I doubt it's in anyone's budget.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPHbS3TixIE
I saw one of these at a recent IBEX show - lots of fun to watch.
June
This discussion has inspired me to find ways to save time and create efficiency.
I'm thinking of making a clear plexiglass template for welting. Maybe boxing if it works out.
I think a 60 inch wide x 24 or 36 inch deep piece should work. Then on my table saw, cut slots for marketing out the welting.
If it works, I'd place the template on the fabric. Then square it up a bit, and start marking out my welting.
What would be slick is to have a cutter that fit in the slots and cut the fabric with out marking. A hand held rotary cutter might work.
So maybe 30 minutes of cutting out 30 welts might take less then 5 minutes. ( guessing on time so please don't give me any grief)
One thing I've noticed in watching the Youtube vids on cutting machines, there is a lot more waist and no creative fabric use such as welt or zipper boxing or such. It's a block and cut method not lay it out and figure highest usage.
Quote from: JuneC on October 10, 2011, 07:36:37 am
Well, this would be nice, but I doubt it's in anyone's budget.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPHbS3TixIE
I saw one of these at a recent IBEX show - lots of fun to watch.
June
But what's the setup time? And how do you get the patterns digitized? Looks like a lot of moving parts compared to a pair of snippers.
I bet I could cut out 1 boat top as fast as that thing could cut 10, but who needs 10 identical boat tops?
you say that peppy, i just signed 2 tops for the same boat this week. !!
Bonehead..
you think too much.. you'll end up thinking yourself into a corner..
for a welt template get a 1 1/2" wide ruler or a piece of aluminium
that wide and maybe 60 to 70" long
for boxing make up some small templates 12" x 4" - 12" x 5" - 12" x 6"
and also some sticks 12 " or so long 1/2" one side and 3/4" the other
and another 1" one side and 3/4" the other..
that way you can lay down a 4" template for 4" boxing and if you want to add 1/2"
lay the 1/2" wide stick beside it. and so on. .
Also i measure the width of my squares and rules so i know what i can use them for.
generally my rules are a bit short of 1 1/2" but i use them for welt anyway :-)
Well I just checked I did a apox 2'x2'x6"cushion all vinyl top and bottom
Two sections with a zippered pull inside for a bolster
Zipper on the bottom of the main with Velcro on the bottom back half a strip
I had it all finnished and stuff whe I relised I had forgot the Velcro o. This piece Pulled the foam reversed it and sewed on a strip of Velcro anx aplied slipey to it and stuffed it all in one hour.
A few weeks ago, I re-read David Pye's Nature and the Art of Workmanship.
Mr. Pye is known for his distinction of the workmanship of risk vs. the workmanship of certainty.
In the workmanship of certainty the result of every operation during production has been predetermined and is outside the control of the operative once production starts. In the workmanship of risk the result of every operation during production is determined by the workman as he work and its outcome depends wholly or largely upon his care judgment and dexterity.
I don't know of many (any?) upholstery operations that don't fall into "workmanship of risk"
Quote from: OneBoneHead on October 09, 2011, 09:23:58 pm
What makes upholstery so difficult is time. We still cut fabric, sew fabric, staple, and so forth pretty much how it has been done for about 50 years.
As in most industries there has been some kind of technological advantage. Upholstery is still a very labor and skill dependent job and business. Am I just missing something? It just takes so much time and I'm not 23 anymore and able to work full bore all day every day. The last innovation I can think of is the Pneumatic staple gun.
Still so labor centered to do a great job.
Quote from: byhammerandhand on October 10, 2011, 04:39:55 pm
A few weeks ago, I re-read David Pye's Nature and the Art of Workmanship.
Mr. Pye is known for his distinction of the workmanship of risk vs. the workmanship of certainty.
hammerhand, I'm not sure what you are getting at but after reading a few reviews on Amazon and Wikipedia on Pye, Pye sounds good but most people don't know and don't care about quality. And after looking at Lean six sigma, what I get from most customers is cost = value.
So in my business to get more work, I get more and more pressure to lower price. This can only be done in one way. I can lower costs or two, I can take a hit. Taking the hit can only work for a shot time and costs raise as quickly or quicker then I can lower them. The only other thing is lower production time but at the risk of lowering quality and craftsmanship as defined by Pye.
As Pye states, risk is part of craftsmanship in that at any moment the work can be damaged or destroyed by a bad move by the craftsperson. Certainty comes from systems and systems are predictable meaning less risk, again Lean Six Sigma. But lower quality and high workmanship. But according to lean six sigma higher workmanship and higher quality.
Maybe that's it. a contradiction. Lean Six Sigma could just be more marketing then fact. Can you build a better sofa in a factory of low skilled people then can be made by 1 highly skilled craftsman?
Who would have less waist? I'm betting the skilled craftsman
Who would have fewer mistakes? Again the skilled craftsperson.
Who's product would last longer? The craftswoman bet.
Who would be more profitable? The factory with higher production is my guess.
Who will sell more? the factory with lower cost per unit.
Who will be better protected in case of lawsuit? The factory because it is set up as a Corporation based in Delaware with off shore holding in the Trobian Island while hiding under the vial of incorporation and negating their fiduciary responsibility to share holders with a shell company allowing them to pay $0.00 in federal income taxes.
Ah we have reached the Dialectic what that "Contradictions within the system force change upon the system. Now we are talken.
Yep I think to much.
Again, how do you justify the cost of quality as to the value of saving money?
How do you get people to trade money for quality when for less money they can by a sofa that kinda looks the same.?
after thinking over Six Sigma Lean production and the art of quality and craftsmanship, I can see why we live a world of junk.
When you apply Six Sigma to productions you don't create products of high quality you product products of high production quality. This is why we are seeing a steep decline in the quality of products as they are produced faster and faster and faster for cheaper and cheaper. Hence the $300 sofa from Ashly Furniture versus the $3000 restoration of a 1940 tufted sofa.
I was wrong in thinking that automation and systematization of a high quality process was the key to high quality products. In contrast, it is the key to low quality high production products.
As I thought about it, there can be very little difference between a Toyota and a Lexus simply because the system can not stand differences in materials and outcome. In other words if you have 5 colors of paint for Toyota as the basis, you can have 7 colors for Lexus and call them an upgrade, but the upgrade is limited to only color not quality or effect of paint. IF you went with a high quality paint for Lexus, then you are effecting the system with a less predictable outcome which will take more skilled labor time. This is a no no in learn production.
It's color, body trim and marketing that makes Lexus better then Toyota not higher quality. If Toyota is running at 99.87% efficiency then to change the production and materials drastically from Toyota to Lexus then you have a decrease in the system. There is no way. In other words, You have the marketing department take care of branding and maintain the system.
So in upholstery, we see again a lower and lower form of quality with higher and higher production based on the speed and ease of production. Any increase in product quality means a lowering of production and ease of production requiring higher and higher skilled workers. Again not Lean Six Sigam.
For the skilled upholstery shop, it is time of skilled cognitive labor that makes the product of higher quality.
Quality Value = skill + focused effort.
Lean Production Value = Ease of Manufacturing + Predictable Outcome
Yep I think to much.
been there done that, when i was a corporate robot
it was all SPC Statistical Process Control.
I'm so glad i can drink tea while i work slowly .. :o
Rich
Custom work can never compete with volume work. If it does, it is no longer custom work.
I have been hearing comments for awhile now about the lack of quality in fabric coming out of China. Today I was told about a large check pattern that was so loosely woven that the check would not stay square while hanging as window treatments. Ouch!
COM's are getting scarier and scarier.
gene