Makrolon help

[DBR1957]

Have a customer that would prefer to have Makrolon in the forward panels
of his enclosure. My first time sewing it. I got some diamond point needles,
Makrolon samples, checked the setup on the machine and I keep having problems
with thread breakage. Dabond, Tenara, 92, 138, slow speed it doesn't matter. Ten
stitches into the sample and the thread breaks. I don't think lubing the thread will
help because it's not a heat issue. Everything else sews fine.

Any tips?

[stitchm]

I've been having the same problem recently with my big bobbin walking foot machine. Unless you can locate a groove or bur on the needle, gib hook or thread guides I think it most likely has to do with the gib hook to needle spacing.

As the material gets thicker it seems the actual loop formed can tend to get slightly smaller, if the hook is too far from the the needle (but not so close that it is coming into contact with the needle - as this will eventually wear out your gib hook) the gib hook may actually be striking the middle of the thread and splitting it.

What to do? put a long strip of material (multiple layers) under the presser foot, tip up the machine, train a light on the hook mechanism and manually advance the needle slowly at first and then more quickly, watching the stitches as they form and looking in particular for the gib hook dividing the thread as opposed to going directly through the loop.

Hook to needle timing is generally said to be correct when: the needle has come 1/8" up from the bottom of its stroke and the gib hook is passing at this point just above the eye of the needle, within the scarf cut of the needle and as close as possible.

DId you try changing the needle and checking its orientation? First thing to check.

Any one else?

[DBR1957]

Stitchm - Using brand new needles. I did check the hook/scarf position and
adjusted to different positions. It was just above the eye into the scarf when I
started. The hook is about as close to the needle as it can get without hitting it.

Thanks for the input. Maybe I should just go back to point one and try again.

[stitchm]

what size needle?
try going up a size or a few to aprox.size 20-22 allows for a larger hole and the loop to form fully.

[Mojo]

I had this problem once on heavy material. I started a new seam and then watched things real close as I move things slowly. I found the culprit. It was the needle hitting the backside of the hole in the foot. I adjusted the foot and it started stitching perfectly after that.

You may want to stitch a piece of the material and then watch the needle and foot clearance carefully to see if this maybe the problem.

Let us know what you find.

Chris

[JuneC]

I'd use at least a size 22 needle.  Anything else is going to make too-small a hole and the thread chafes as it passes through.  Probably 24 would be even better.  Also, a larger needle is less likely to flex as it passes through the Makrolon.  If it flexes at all, the thread will likely come in contact with the needle hole in the foot and/or plate and chafe even more.  Just a thought...  I have no experience with Makrolon, but have had many issues using size 20 needles with my machine and very thick fabric layers with the top thread disintegrating as I sewed.  Size 22 cured it.

June

[DBR1957]

Thanks for the replies.

I am using size 22 diamond point now. I stepped down to 92
thread to to increase the thread diameter hole size ratio. Will
order some 24's. No problem with the needle path. I even gave
the workings a good cleaning, oiled and checked the timing for
extra measure.

I'm using turned edge Sunbrella facing tape on both sides so that
adds a bit. I'll try facing tape on just one side to see what happens.

I know I'm probably just missing simple.

[fragged8]

ok if its Tenara there are a couple of things to try. i'm sewing tenara
next week and not looking forward to it.
normally you go down a size in needle if sewing with tenara not up
but makrolon sewing could change that rule.
the reason for going down a size is because of the slippy properties of
PTFE. it slips in the needle causing a smaller than normal or non-existant
loop.

1. take the main spool off the stand and move it about 6 to 8 feet away from the
machine.. or
2. mount the spool horizontal instead of vertical and allow it to turn freely

these 2 things may prevent bunching or snags at the tension discs which
intermittently changes the thread tension resulting in a misformed loop.


3. turn the needle slightly in the holder so the eye is anywhere from
15 deg out from its normal position to 45 deg out. this adds a little more pressure to the thread
holding it in the needle to aid loop forming

4. re-time your hook so it is entering the scarf at the last possible moment
as the needle is rising,

just try them one at a time not all at once, at the worst case
try 2 options together.

Report back what you found out  ;D number 2 works for me.

Rich

[Eric]

21 diamond point is fine. Heat is your friend. Solar fix 2000 is perfered thread. Lube is good. If you can wheel thru by hand, and stitches are good, timing is fine. Look at your tension. And last but not least makrolon takes some getting used to.
Eric

[Mike8560]

Sorely I can't help I've never had anaone want to spend the extra cash and they like to have easy to roll u zipp up front.  I got some same stuff to try fro. Ocean clear the sent some needles also they sell.  I bad no trouble but sewing was slooow

[Gregg @ Keystone Sewing]

This is a good question, and it has been coming up a lot over the past few years.  

People are focusing in on hook timing and things like that, but in many cases a properly setup and working canvas / upholstery machine is NOT up to the task.

For people who don't know what Makrolon is, it's a plastic or polycarbonate made in thin sheets, only a few mm thick.  So the thickness is not the issue, but the density.  Same material as bullet proof glass.  From a sewing standpoint, it also tends to leave a sharp edge.  

First off, a diamond point needle helps in this case, as it helps penetrate the material with minimal resistance and less needle deflection than a standard sharp or spear point needle.

So...the real question here is, what machine will do this consistently?  No sure fire answer.  And, even if it does the work, for how long before the machine blows up?

Now, I'm going to leave myself open to criticism or critical comments here, but IMO you need a machine with a bit more drive than a regular canvas upholstery machine.  What do I mean by more drive?  A larger needle?  No.  The best example I have is one my Dad would always tell people.  He would say "If I hold a 2X4 board in my hand in the air, and you try to hammer in a nail, wlikely not likly to get far.  But, if you lay that same board down onto a concrete floor and then hammer than same nail in, it will gbecausegh becasue of more drive".

This is the same case here.  Reg upholsterys upholstrey machines may work short term, but we really need to look at a machine that is designed capacityier capicity sewing.  We setup a for a customer a Singer model 144W204 they were very happy with, consistently consistatly, had a 20" long arm (remember, you can't fold Makrolon, so the arm space is sometimes critical).  If you are looking, this machine is the same as Seiko JW class, Consew 745R series, Juki LG-158, and Adler 220 models.  Yes, there are others that are just as heavy and then some, but these are just a few examples.