Retirement

[bobbin]

We both work for other employers as well as for ourselves.  We have small retirement plans through them to which we contribute with each paycheck, we receive a very small employer match.  Our contributions to those funds are made with pre-tax dollars, thus reducing our taxable gross at year end.  Monies contributed will grow tax-deferred until we begin to take disbursements, at which time those disbursements will become part of our taxable earnings.  I thought that was pretty straight forward. 

If you make the time to learn what  fascism actually is you will see rather readily that the United States has a long way to go before our country could be loosely considered fascist.  Or sot, let alone communist.

[Rich]

I'm sorry, I got a little off track in my thinking when you said you converted your IRA's to Roth IRA's. I guess you meant that your contributions were not taxable before you converted since, of course, now they are.

As far as the what our country would be considered, I hope your right about that, it just seems that little by little, we are having to walk around on eggshells to make sure what we say is "politically correct" so as not to get anyone angry at us for being so "insensitive" (i.e. if your not on our side, your part of the problem, or didn't Al Gore say "the time for debate is over"?).
Rich

[bobbin]

Rich we have Simple IRAs at our "straight jobs", those receive a meagre employer match and our contributions to them are made with pre-tax dollars.  Contributions grow untaxed and we will pay tax on the disbursements we will eventually take from those accounts.  These accounts are not the same thing as personal IRAs; they're basically the really small business's way to offer xomething akin to a "401K" or pension to employees. 

We also have personal IRAs.  We have been maxing those out for years now.  When the opportunity to roll traditional IRAs into ROTH IRAs we jumped at it.  When the rollover was first implemented you had the option of spreading the taxes due on the conversion over the course of 4 or 5 yrs., I believe.  We took full advantage of that as we were converting signifcant sums from one to the other.  The Traditional IRA allowed you to deduct the amount of your contribution from your personal taxes when you filed your income tax, and you then paid the taxes due when you began to take disbursements.  The ROTH IRAs are funded with after tax dollars, and the benefit is that since you've already paid the taxes due on the contributions you will be permitted to withdraw from the funds TAX FREE, all the while the monies will grow and compound (we hope!), taking advantage of Albert Einstein's "8th. Wonder of the World". 

Do not confuse the current political climate and trend toward fastidious "political correctness" with Fascism,  They are in no way remotely related.  Fascism is form of government based on totalitarianism and dictatorship, originated in Italy in 1922 and embraced by the Nazi regime in Germany.  That model is a long, long way from our republic, a representative democracy.  I personally loathe the trend toward "PC" which I feel is little more than a red herring to distract us from the greater problems presently facing our country.  I grew up on a diet of Monty Python, Saturday Night Live, and Blazing Saddles, and believe that humor, satire, and parody are the surest ways to fight bigotry and intolerance.  If that isn't cherishing free speech, I don't know what is. 

[Rich]

Yes, I believe you are correct that our form of gov't does not resemble fascism in the traditional sense.
The thing that has me concerned is that well intentioned individuals will go along with innocent sounding causes that you can really get behind. The trouble is that it is marketed by those who stand to benefit, in such a way as to make disagreement with the ideals taboo. We are told Going green, banning smoking in public places, cutting our carbon footprint, banning guns and being pro-choice are so good for our health and well-being that anyone who raises an objection based on cost, or any other side effect is labeled as being part of the problem and therefore an enemy of the cause. The resulting fervor becomes almost religious in it's attitude and causes people to do irrational things (remember Y2K, and heterosexual AIDS?).
I think the Germans got pretty worked up about threats to their national pride just before the Holocaust.
Anyway, that's my .02, I'll get off my soapbox as I've probably pretty much hijacked this thread by now.
Rich

[baileyuph]

That's ok Rich, anything to extreme rouses distrust or questions.

Back to retirement, the weekend news now reports money is being pulled prematurely from retirement accounts ( IRA's, 401's).  This, they report is significant enough in several respects that some may not be able to retire and the impacts toward recovery from this recession.

I did check my accounts and true enough, values are shrinking.

Doyle

[mike802]

That model is a long, long way from our republic, a representative democracy.

I stand by my definition of fascism, at least in the context of this thread.  I do realize there are many aspects beyond what is being discussed here.   It is true that our form of gov. is "supposed" to be a constitutional republic, but is it really?  When was the last time anyone felt there representative really represented them in DC? Today writing a letter to our Senator, or representative in the house only gets a form letter as a reply and no real action.  When the bail outs passed 90% of Americans were against them, but still they passed.  Our representatives were getting their hat handed to them in their home towns over Obama's health care, but still it passed.   I apologize if I offend anyone, but in the evidence I have seen, our presidential elections are a fraud, our presidents are appointed, not elected, its all for show.  Our country bleeds jobs over seas, impoverishing Americans, but what do our representatives do about it? nothing. I do believe we have some control over local and some state elections, especially if there is a ground swell support for a candidate. This may be the best place to start taking back our country.  Our country is going fascist, a little at a time because they cant get away with it all at once.  It's the frog in the pot analogy, turn up the heat all at once and it will jump out, turn up the heat a little at a time and the frog will not notice until its to late.  I also feel it is important we do not allow ourselves to be divided by small differences of opinion, we all agree things are not going in the direction we want them, we have to come together and find solutions.  I also think it is important we do not confuse patriotism with love of our gov. over our love for country. 

[SHHR]

Very well put Mike.
Kyle

[bobbin]

We discussed the very same thing today, DB.  It is said that the banking system operates on trust and public confidence.  Nothing we have seen lately has filled us with much trust or confidence.  Shrinking values have us worried, too. 

We have decided to continue on our present budget but we have also considered getting out of the market more and using some of the uninvested money to do some "around the house" projects we've continued to postpone over the years.  At least we'll know where it went; to the local building supplier with great employees, and to any other skilled person we hire.  That's how we "grow economies", one small business to the next.   ;)

Those people making premature withdrawals from retirement accounts are using that money to pay their present expenses, yes?  I know several people who've been unemployed or drastically underemployed for well over a year now.  Most have shaken their heads and said they've never seen it like this before.   

[baileyuph]

Bobbin,

Yes, spending your money locally can add value to your community and your life style also.  Indeed, such a plan would spur your local economy now. So why wait, since you have your other bases covered pretty well?  Keep the money at home.


Something I will share:

At a recent financial seminar, the discussion centered on
"what do I do with my money?",
something undoubtedly on everyone's mind in light of todays economy.  The analyst suggested NOT to stop investing, but be sure to pick quality blue chips, that pay a good dividend.  This guy does not sell stock BTW, nor would he recommend any specific stocks.  He spoke more in a consultant capacity.

How does this recommendation set with most of you?  Or has the downturn scared you out of the market?

Doyle

[Mojo]

Doyle:

One of the forces that should drive anyone's retirement investment decisions is " time ". If your getting close to retirement then your investments should all be very conservative. If your a long ways from retirement then your investments can be a bit more risky.

Chris

[west coast]

Jeez freedom 95 is looking less likely all the time thanks for the downer you guys.

[Rich]

I think what Mojo said is very important, but if there is time (10years or more) before retirement, I think waiting it out with investments that were well chosen to begin with is the way to go.
Rich

[mike802]

How does this recommendation set with most of you?

Like I stated earlier in this thread, I had a good system I was using that worked very well for me and it showed that it was time to get out and I did shortly before everything started falling apart.  The system I was using went on the assumption that the market is totally manipulated and that the manipulators foot prints could be read in the charts if one knows what to watch for.  Sounds outrageous, but I have to admit it worked.  I am thoroughly convinced now that the big banks and the gov. work together and manipulate the market.  So as you can imagine, I am completely out of the market and have no plans of  getting back in.  Not because I am afraid, I never invested money I couldn't afford to loose, but because I do not want to be part of their scam.  Also at this time I have no confidence in the economy, they want it to tank.   The best investment right now is canned food and shotguns.  Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone just IMO.

[Rich]

Yep like I said, the math in investing does not work. Like gambling the odds are in the houses favor.  You might win a little here and a little there but over time little by little or all at once, the house wins and you get to go home broke.

Would you say that's a recent development? Since many have done well over the years investing in the stock market.
Rich

[mike802]

Rich: I think it is a resent development.  After the crash of 27 the banks started setting people up for the next big fall, which I believe we are experiencing know.  The period just after ww2 up until until about black Monday 1987 was probably the best time for investing in stocks.