Need advice from Marine pro

[Kiwi2]

Rookie to sewing and to the boards, needs advice please....
I recently bought a sailboat that is quickly turning into a much bigger project than anticipated. My budget has been destroyed in electrical, plumbing, keel bolts etc... The reality is that I need to learn how to sew / replace: main sail cover, Bimini, interior cushions, hatch covers; as well as sail repair. I know that I will be working with Sunbrella fabric, and that I will need a machine that is capable of zig-zag, and reverse stitching. I need advice / mentoring from someone who has experience in the marine side of upholstering: What's the best portable machine to buy that is durable & capable of working with heavy materials--but affordable on a beer budget? Is it a smart or dumb idea to buy used instead of new? What size, and type of thread is best, to stand up to salt water corrosion? Please suggest DVD's or books that would be best for training a quick learning novice. Feel free to offer suggestions on any topic, no matter how small they might seem. I know I've got a lot to learn this winter--but ready to dive in to the deep end...
Thanks in advance to all!
Kiwi

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

Mike can be a great source of knowledge on the bimini, sails and so forth.  I have done quite a few boat interiors with pretty good success.  There's a thread on here, titled "Chad's Husker Seats Pictures" or "Husker Seats Pictures" or something along those lines so I can probably help you with those.  Mike can as well and has much more experience than I.  I happen to love doing boat seats.  My favorite projects have been boat seats.

Welcome to the board and don't hesitate to ask questions if we (I) can help.

Virginia

[Darren Henry]

Hi Kiwi welcome to the board. Where are you located? No point in my sending you to Canadian Tire if you're in New Zealand LOL.

When I was on Lake of the woods all the blow boaters harboured where the owner's brother had his upholstery shop and the rest of us were not allowed on site, so can't help with sails. The rest is the same as the cabin cruisers and pleasure boats I did. Here it's mostly pontoon boats.

As far as portable machines go wait for Mojo to jump in here. He has done a whack of research into them during his grief with his first one. Another very respected member here is Bob & his son Bobby Toledo of Toledo sales down in the states. They sell and service industrial machines. Quality sewing machines, especially industrial, last forever and don't loose their value. My two shoe making machines (former vocation) have been dated as 1929 and 1938. My singer 111W155 (walking foot machine for upholstery) is black, so pre-1956 when Singer changed colours. I'm not afraid of used ---just watch out for ABused.

With instructional videos etc...I would avoid the ones from anyone who  is trying to also sell you all the extra "stuff" you need to do the job the hard way.  There is one website who's "training videos" are as laughable as a Hollywood war movie is to someone who has actually served. I apprenticed pre-internet, but the common consensus over the year s I've been here is that the good ones will cost you ( as a DVD set) but are far superior.

Rookie to sewing and

....

I know I've got a lot to learn

I don't want to dis wade you at all; but I've seen many many people who underestimate just how difficult this trade is. I would suggest that you tackle one demon at a time. Once you get your machine, learn to use it on scrap/discount fabric until it's second nature , like driving the car. Then you can focus on the learning the rest. I don' t mean to sound pompous , I am sharing real life experience. I've had trained  a number of people over the years in many things. "You cannot march if you don't know how to lace your boots and put your rucksack on" sticks from one of my early leadership courses, but it's true across life.

[Mike]

Darren said everything I was thinking there is a Sail site that can set you Rite don't thnk posting there address here is hosher but they do have diy vids for the novice they sell portable machines also   Darren I didn't know that about the black singer , my 111w155 is also black and has much worn paint from fabric on the deck

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

I don't want to dis wade you at all; but I've seen many many people who underestimate just how difficult this trade is. I would suggest that you tackle one demon at a time. Once you get your machine, learn to use it on scrap/discount fabric until it's second nature , like driving the car. Then you can focus on the learning the rest. I don' t mean to sound pompous , I am sharing real life experience. I've had trained  a number of people over the years in many things. "You cannot march if you don't know how to lace your boots and put your rucksack on" sticks from one of my early leadership courses, but it's true across life.

True enough Darren and well put.  The upholstery machine was the least of my problems having been a sewer since I was knee high to a grasshopper.  My first job was recovering a set of restaurant bench seats.  The owner gave me one that they had removed the existing seat from so I had no clue what size to cut the upholstery fabric.  Add to that, a shady upholsterer sold her vinyl that was not designed for restaurant seats and man was I in for a world of hurt.   If I hadn't plunked down a nice chunk of change for my upholstery machine, I would have been so out of there.  I decided I was going to be an upholsterer and a few years down the road and more than one "hard knock" and I'm not bad if I do say so myself but more than one occasion I have asked myself why on earth I wanted to upholster.

Virginia

[Mojo]

When it comes to cushions, bimini's, etc. there is no better then Mike. He is a master craftsman and has forgot more then some of us will remember in regards to marine work. He is one of Florida's best marine fabricators. I do not know if we have a member who is experienced doing sails. Mike may have done small ones but extra large sails typically have to be sewn from a pit.

I myself own a canvas/awning company so I will focus more on machines, thread and fabric. First off the machine you will want is a walking foot machine. Do not try and save money buying a machine that is not a walking foot. If your on a budget then a used machine is fine as long as it has been oiled and taken care of throughout its life. If any parts need to be replaced on an old machine it will be the hook assembly. They are fairly cheap. Several of us have used old machines without any problems. If you want to buy new and are on a budget then I would consider a Chandler or Highlead. They both make compound feed machines ( needle / walking foot feeds ). I have two Chandlers and two Highleads and have ran those things ragged and they keep coming back for more. The Chandlers are copies of the Consew and all parts are interchangeable. If your looking at an older machine then JUki walking foots are awesome. Especially if you find one made in Japan. I would avoid the cheaper off brand machines. They are more trouble then they are worth. Also avoid the portable industrial machines like Sail Rite has. I owned a Sail Rite copy machine and it was junk. You need a big heavy duty machine.

In regards to thread I would use Solarfix. It is a lifetime PTFE. You would want to use size 2000. Do not even consider Tenara. It is not a thread a beginner should start with. I know pro's who cannot get tension settings right because it has a reverse twist. Solarfix is expensive but it lasts a lifetime. If you need to use a Poly thread then the only one to consider is Sunguard. It has a higher UV Ray inhibitor.
In Kiwi land with your high UV ray's expect poly thread to last 3 - 4 years.

Canvas - I only use Sattler and Recacril and refuse to use Sunbrella. It stretches and in 2004 they changed their formulas and a few years ago outsourced their fiber mixing to China. Sunbrella today is not what it was several years ago.

In regards to vinyl, Mike would be your best resource on that. I have no idea what they offer in Kiwi land. BTW, I have been to Auckland and am married to a Bloody Aussie. :) I love NZ. Gorgeous country and awesome people.

One last comment. Do not start on your projects till you have a good handle on controlling your machine. Pick up some scrap fabrics and start making pouches, bag's, etc. Trust me your going to ruin some fabric while your learning. Once you have good control of your machine then start with the smallest project you have and go from there.

Best of luck mate,

Chris

[Darren Henry]

I do not know if we have a member who is experienced doing sails.

I think Grebo (aka suzie [sp] ) over in Spain has done some. she hasn't posted for a while but she might respond to a PM. If she does have her get on here more often. We miss her insight and her e-travelog from over there.

[Bob T]

I work on sails with some frequency, so I may be able to answer some of your questions.  First, I buy most of my supplies from Challenge Sailcloth.  (Google them for website)  The have a great catalogue of sail making supplies, including threads. Contact them and get their catalogue.

You didn't mention how big your sailboat is and that makes all the difference.  Sails for a 20 footer is a complete world of difference when compared to sails for a 60 footer.  Size 92 thread would work for the 20 footer, but size 138 or 207 may be necessary for 60 footer.  The machines to handle that thread difference are very different in cost and performance and are pretty much not interchangeable.  For example, a Bernina 217n (Adler 1217 and Chandler 1217 are rebadged Bernina 217n's) could just barely handle the size 92 thread. But they would do a beautiful job.  If you need to sew size 138 thread, then we're talking Adler 166 or 266.  These Adler's are not toys.  They are serious machines.  They are not what I would call portable.
You should reconsider the portable machines.  I frequently see people who bought them and they are not happy campers.  Typically they make easy work difficult.  Same with the Consew 146 zigzags. The one I had was an absolute bear to try to get work done.  I'd have to retime it every week.  The Bernina 217n's are phenomenal machines.  I've had one for about 10 years and only retimed it once. Great machine but will not sew 138 thread, and isn't that happy sewing size 92 thread.
Most of the zigzag machines most people try to use to repair sails and sew Sunbrella were actually designed to make braziers not sails, so be careful of what you choose.

I'm going to start a list of machines which can handle the size 138 thread and add to it periodically:
Seiko SKZ series
Adler 525 series
MINERVA 525
Pfaff 138 and 908

[Mojo]

Bob is very correct. I started this business with a portable Sail Rite type machine. I would sew for 2 hours and work on the machine for another hour. I could never keep the machine in timing. The tolerances and clearances inside the machine were horrible.

Sail Rite blasted me for mentioning that the many chinese portables on the market was NOT like their machine. Bulls***. They are made in the same factory, come off the same line but are painted a different color and badged Sail Rite. The rest are painted cream color and badged under a number of names Tuffsew, etc.

When I ordered parts for my Tuffsew I bought them from Sailrite as they are the only distributors in America for these parts.

The machine was so bad I nearly got out of this business. I gave the machine away as I could not, in good conscience take money for it. I was just glad to see that POS go down the road.

Buy either a new walking foot machine or a good used one. Stay clear of the cheap off brands.

Chris

[Darren Henry]

You had to have edited that post several times Chris. I remember the grief that piece of junk put you through. grin.

[Kiwi2]

I am blown away by all of the responses to my questions! and within 48 hours of posting! Thank you all!
Darren: Thanks for the advice. I know there is a steep learning curve and am prepared for hours of practice in order to minimize mistakes. "You cannot march if you don't know how to lace your boots and put your rucksack on", was one of my Dad's favorite quotes. No true-er words were ever spoken.
Mojo: Thanks a million. Walking foot-check. Chandler, Highlead, Juki-check. Sattler (breathes better?) & Recacril over Sunbrella--check. Solarfix & Sunguard--check. Thanks also for the warnings on Rite& Tuffsew. I plan on practicing with cheap fabric making pouches before my projects...
BobT: I cannot thank you enough! My boat is a 36' sloop with a 135 jenny. I don't have the main measurements handy, but my mast height is 52'. The game plan is to finish repairs & outfitting over the winter so that I can log many nautical miles on her cruising, over the next few years. I believe that I need a portable, to take on board in order to repair the inevitable sail repairs. I was not thinking about sail creation from scratch--although it is an interesting idea. Replacing bimini, main & jenny covers, hatch covers, & cushions, will be tackled as their deterioration dictates. My hope is that this information will aid you (and others) in your suggestions for the best machine & thread for my applications. I would prefer a durable, heavy duty machine that does not need a lot of time spent retiming or worrying about thread tension, as I'm sure I will have other maintenance issues which will require my attention. I had heard of Bernina, Adler & Juki from others, but didn't think I could afford them. Is E-Bay the best route to go? Bob in Toledo doesn't have any portables. I have ordered catalogue from Challenge...
Mike: Any suggestions on vinyl & thread for cockpit cushions?
Thanks again to all! Y'all have an awesome community!

[Darren Henry]

"You cannot march if you don't know how to lace your boots and put your rucksack on", was one of my Dad's favorite quotes.

Dad must have been "green for the Queen" at some point, if he heard that too. If he was Artillery/field engineer/or weapons tech---today is the feast day for our patron saint St. Barbara.

Thirty six foot is a lot of boat. You will be working on some large pieces. I've always wanted to make a small treadle table to accept my industrial machine heads. Problem is that I'm too nostalgic to toss the head that comes with them LOL. What about just buying a real machine head and building your own table? If you click on Mike or bmax's names you will be at their profile page. At the bottom there is an option to "see recent posts from this person". They have both posted pics of excellent shop lay outs. Look at your sloop and go "Okay---If I make the little folding table the same height as the galley counter I could put a piece of 1/4 plywood there-----"etc.  Try to make things multi-functional. i.e--the table folds out for duck boards in the bilge ?? Okay I'm stretching that, but you know what I mean.

[brmax]

I really wish for a 3 point zig zag this Christmas I believe that's the ticket for sails and parachutes.
I think it was Bob T way back talking about some zig zag models and you could search that a bit, some have cams for different steps they call it, or we can rattle him for more info as its always an interesting read.  I think most zig zags  always use that stitch ( I don't have a clue ) but would be stoked if santa set one by the, uh anywhere close.
I guess you have the thought of keeping an onboard machine, Ya just better get some popcorn and search. If some articles seem to be interest but no pics anymore just give a shout out, many changes in photo storage sites as you probably know.
have a good day

[Bob T]

The problem with the dedicated 3-step zigzagger is it doesn't do a very pretty straight stitch.  If it were me, I would get a stout standard zigzag machine which can handle 138 thread.  Where you would use a 3-step stitch, make two pass, one beside the other to provide the strength you need.   I would not get a portable at all.  You can make a good zigzag machine somewhat portable by cutting down the table it sets in to a smaller size.  You should find that most portables fit a standard table opening, but then so would a stout zigzag machine.  You may pay a bit more for a good machine, but it will serve you much better, would provide results you can be proud of, would help you make a few dollars on the side doing repairs for others, and would be worth more when it is time to sell it.

A 36 ft. sailboat uses some strong sails and portables and less capable machines will not be able to handle the thread size and tension needed to be able to sew the heavier thread. Even my Bernina 217N cannot handle that weight of thread.  If there seems to be concern in my post it is because safety is key on sailboats.  I sailed for  30 years.  A thunderstorm can come in without warning and sails will be asked to withstand stresses you never expected.  You will have enough on your hands in the middle of a storm without worrying if the sail will stay together.

If I were in your position, I would look for a used Pfaff 138 (or a Pfaff in general which has a model number ending in 8, like a 438 or 908.). Next, I would verify that the machine is a zigzag for sails and not for braziers.  I would cut down a sewing machine table to fit the available space, and for about $150 I'd put a servo sewing motor on it which is capable of variable speed, but especially slowing the stitch rate down to about 2 or 3 stitches per second when needed.