Off Topic but HELP!!!

[Mojo]

Virginia:

I raised, bred and trained GSD's for over 40 years ( since my childhood ). There is no dog that has a " pack mentality " then GSD's. I have had numerous owners come to me with problems and it all stems from the owner and how they handle their dog's.

Ed hit the nail on the head when he said you need to establish dominance. Without this your dog will OWN you instead of you owning a dog. The best way to establish dominance over a dog is working them on a leash. Choke chains work great as long as they are placed high on the neck and not in a lower spot. Put him through his paces and scold him when he doesn't do what you want him to but praise the daylights out of him when he does well.

I myself do not believe in using treats as rewards. But then I only work with GSD's and they respond great to love and praise. You have another dog and your just another member in the pack. You HAVE to establish yourself as the Alpha and until you do problems will persist. So make him understand you mean business when you give a command. Once you start working him on a leash he will start getting the idea that YOUR the alpha and you will see a different dog in him. Just remember he is a puppy and they all test our patience just like toddlers will do.

Ed gave you sound advice and obviously him and I are on the same page when it comes to training dogs. Our method does work. :)

Best of luck and hang in there.

Chris

[Mike]

My 2 little one damaged so e baseboard i still have to repair house breaking is hard not being home all day. At least they have eachother.   Bt there happy a a pig in mud when i come home. To go out. Even when i have presents.    But you remonded me i have to walk them more ive been so tired after my brother was in the hospital january i was home much at night to walk them and after sork has been so much. I was walking a mile a night good for me too.

My bigest issue is barkly after i feed them and sitting down on the couch barkly starts yapping for more. I dont want to make him fat. I was puttti g his leache on and he would settle down at my feet but after time he still started againg lalty.

[kodydog]

Herding dogs are HIGH energy dogs. They need a ton of daily exercise. Tongue hanging to the ground exercise. I know you take him for his daily walk but a dog with all this built up energy needs to find a way to get rid of it. Sometimes that means getting into trouble or bugging the heck out of you. My young girl has this problem. Usually all I need to do is stomp my feet and she goes. And I don't let her slow down until shes worn out. 15 mins a day of hard exercise would help a lot

[JuneC]

Like Mojo, I've had GSDs for the better part of 30 years.  Some are easy, some are not.  Only with the latest I've found that a stronger hand is required.   She was crazy, nutty, over-enthusiastic, didn't know her own strength, nippy, whirling dirvish on a leash, you get the picture.  The only thing that worked with her was overpowering with strength - and it didn't take long. Left hand on the collar, right hand on the shoulders, push her to the floor and pin her there till she calmed down.  No hitting, no pain, no abuse, just "I'm in charge here and I'm bigger than you".  Only had to do that for about 3 weeks.  And after 2 years, she still army-crawls to the front door when we come home - squinty eyes and all.  Not saying it will work, but like kids, you sometimes have to adjust your methods to achieve the desired result.

June 

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

Energy.  Whew, that's why I've started walking him twice a day.  Plus going out for ball throwing breaks whenever he comes down to bug me during the day.  If I'm lucky when we go out, he gets his urge to "run like the wind" .. that always cracks me up.  I'll be very glad when we get all of my MIL's estate issues finalized.  Our first project is to enclose a bunch more of the yard which will give Joe a bigger area to run amuck in.  We both think he will enjoy the "run game" much more when that happens.

This is Thursday and the first day I got him to listen to me (thanks to a well placed knee) was on Sunday.  He's still way more good than bad.  I was using the drill earlier and he wanted to get underfoot then but went upstairs when I told him to.  Last week that never would have happened.  The cats are figuring out that they can walk across a room that he's in and he won't feel compelled to get up and chase them (most of the time).  2 months ago that never would have happened.  Some is maturity and some (like going upstairs) is starting to understand that he has to pay attention to me.

On our walk yesterday, one of the houses sprinkler system had just kicked in.  I let Joe "go at it" as he loves to run amuck in sprinkler's when they are running.  First he drank, then flopped over on his back and rolled around and around.  He had an absolute ball.  I was just standing there holding his lead and laughing and laughing at how ridiculous he looked.

Virginia

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

Things seemed to be going pretty well until the full moon.  Joe then became something of a butt head - started biting when we tried to pet him, barking at everything, chasing the cats, going after Jim.  Tried to ride it through and seemed like Joe was settling down.  Walked Joe after supper as is our routine.  Came back to give Jim his second, though shorter, walk of the day.  Came back with Jim and was in the kitchen rustling around for their after walk milk bone when I heard Jim scream horribly.  Ran into the living room and found Bob absolutely livid.  Joe had jumped from the couch over the coffee table and landed very forcefully on Jim's hips (12-1/2 years old and the only health related issue he has).  We were convinced that his hips were broken, dislocated as he was dragging his right leg.  Fortunately after an hour or so, he put weight on the leg, though a little tenderly.  Seems to be walking normally this morning.

We are still 6 days away from obedience training.  I'm calling the trainer this morning.  If she cannot give me a tool to keep Joe away from Jim, I have no choice but to take Joe back.  Jim is not dominant (probably the problem) and did NOTHING to provoke Joe.  Joe may be trying to get Jim to play (I would prefer to think that this is not malicious) but Jim and his hip cannot withstand the kind of romping that Joe wants to be able to do.  I'm not going to put Jim down because his hips are old when he's still getting around fine (as long as a 40+ pound dog does not jump on them).  Bob & I have talked and it may be necessary to put Jim down come winter, depending on how much snow/ice we get, but right now he's enjoying the weather and walking around the neighborhood with me.

I'm really po'd at Joe as I have tried everything I can think of to keep him away from Jim and nothing works.  I also know that I still love Joe but feel more of a responsibility to that old man dog who has been a good and loyal friend for over 12 years now.  Talk about the proverbial rock and hard spot.

Virginia

[cajunpedaler]

I think you would do the new dog a favor by taking him to a location where his energy and exuberance will be appreciated.  And I'm not being snotty.  I see people all the time, that get dogs that, by their very breed, are inclined to certain behaviors.  If you rehome, now you know what kind of home he needs so you can be very selective and I think that would give you a GREAT deal of satisfaction knowing you matched up a new family with a dog that suits their environment.  Having a new young dog with your old bad hip dog, seems like it creates a tense environment...seems like you would constantly be on edge that "something's about to happen"... That's not good for you or the dogs.

I think that when you have two dogs in the household, you also have to work harder to be the boss..because rather than keeping each other company, the dogs are talking amongst themselves about the best way to blow you off and ignore you.  Seriously...

I have two dogs now, one is a Jack Russell mix and the other is a Boston.  The Boston is the dominant one.  She is very clever and is always wanting to negotiate with me for everything....I say sit and she looks as if "yeah, what's in it for me?"  The JR is very cute, but not really all that bright...she is very food motivated, as opposed to the Boston who is very praise motivated.
good luck.
Perry

[Darren Henry]

I feel for you Virginia. That is a very tough situation, but I'm sure you and Bob will find what is right for you. Perry does bring up a good option; find someone who is in a better situation to deal with his "issues" and find a more docile adoptee for your situation. You two will have to decide for yourselves.

Left hand on the collar, right hand on the shoulders, push her to the floor and pin her there till she calmed down.  No hitting, no pain, no abuse,

Trust me; I tried that!!!, despite all the bites and scratches (he was one wiry pup), until the night he decided to attack me after I let him up. If my own dear departed mother had run 5 feet to bite me in the calf hard enough to draw blood through my work pants as I was walking away, I'd have the same knee-jerk reaction; a back hand as I spun around. That was the first time he questioned his being the alpha. I certainly don't advocate that type of treatment to any animal. My point was simply that you have to be in charge,and if that means reasonable  use of force ---you have to consider it or give up.

I have never had / or been around another animal that needed to be that "over powered". I have worked around horses that needed a hackamore bit, or wouldn't listen to heels pressed against the ribs with the verbal command unless they heard you wearing spurs. That's "taking charge" the same as George's suggestion to get a choke collar. But this was an extreme case. I don't care if I'm living in a ute, de-balling sheep in outer Mongolia---I will not have a dog that bites on my property.

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

We have a choke.  He's been responding to it (finally) on the walks when he decides he wants to chase a squirrel/bird/leaf/whatever.

It is not an option to find Joe another home.  We signed a contract with CNHS when we adopted Joe.  We either work it out or we return him to CNHS and they evaluate him at which point he his either caged again until a home can be found or euthanized should they decide that he is not "adoptable".

Talked with the obedience trainer.  Issue with jumping on Jim seems to be after walks when he is still amped up.  Sooo, we are going to try to keep him away from Jim until he has calmed down.  Once he calms down, it's not a worry.  Honestly, it seems to me a situation of his being so fired up because he had a fun walk and he really, really, really wants to play with Jim.  Jim is too old for rough housing. 

It also will be easier once the fence line has been moved and Joe has more room to run.  Unfortunately, that can't happen until the estate issues are settled.  Hopefully, that will be a done deal by the 15th.  Then we will be able to contact fencing company and have them start working on that.

I still want to hang in with Joe until we go through obedience classes.  If we can't come to terms with each other by the end of classes, we will have no other option than to return Joe to CNHS but that is not my preferred option.  He spent our early morning with his head on my lap while I drank coffee/surfed the web.  He is NOT a vicious animal -- just has tons of energy and really wants to romp with Jim.

Virginia

[cajunpedaler]

Sounds like to me you're going to go through the martyrdom of keeping a dog that may (maybe not) be suited to your environment.  I see good intentioned animal saviors like this all the time.  And I just walk away, shaking my head.  I do, believe me, think animals are important.  But they are dogs.  And should not be the be all, end all. They are dogs.  My decision would be to return the dog, with an objective assessment of his personality and your best efforts...geez, that would be valuable information to the next owner, who might just turn out to be just right.  You also have no idea of his genetic background, these may be behaviors that you will never change.  If you do return him to the shelter and they opt to euthanize him, you've done all you can realistically do. It's a dog.  Yes, you're attached, but honestly you don't have a long history with him. Only expectation of what you hoped for.
I don't think you would be a failure at all if you turned him back in...that's what the system is for.  Sometimes happy endings, sometimes not.

And that bullshit about HAVING to take him back to the shelter...it's your dog. A dog, but your dog.  You could just tell them that you're looking for a foster until your older dog dies.
Perry
yes, I'm warm and fuzzy like this all the time.

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

Perry, you can call it bullshit if you like but here is line #3 from our CONTRACT:

I agree that the animal is being adopted for myself and will not be sold, adopted or given to another part and that if at any point I cannot keep the animal, I will return him to the CNHS.

I have no idea what they would do if we broke the contract nor do I have any intention of finding out.

Not sure why you call me a martyr for doing everything in my power to make an adoption work.  I fell head over heels with Joe, the moment I saw him.  Yes, he's driven me crazy over a few things but when he lays with his head on my lap and looks up at me, that's it.  A larger yard to run in and obedience training I hope will make the difference.  If we don't feel objectively that anything has changed at that point, Joe will be returned to the shelter.

We do not look at any of our dogs as "just dogs"  Never have and I hope never will.

Virginia

[cajunpedaler]

I think that if you rehomed the dog, there is no legal recourse from them other than hot air and threats. Personally, I would damn the torpedoes and dare them. I think the shelter mentality is to instill the martyrdom syndrome and guilt and all sorts of unrealistic conditions.  Fact is, not every dog can be or should be saved.
I adore my dogs.  I treat them very well.  I say all the time that when I am reincarnated, I want to come back as one of my dogs. But, I constantly remind them, they are dogs.  I am the human with the opposable thumb.  I do not reward bad behavior, I ignore it.  I praise good behavior.  I walk them every day on my own 5 acres on a leash.  They have a huge fenced in yard at the house.  My shop is visible to them from their back yard.

There is a word called "anthropomorphize"..It means assigning human values to an animal...your statement about how "he lays his head in your lap and looks up at me" indicates that's what's going on.  So many people mean well but think in human emotions regarding dogs.  My girls are quite content and I think that is because I recognize and treat them like *dogs*.  They are allowed to be comfortable being dogs. And I work with them, within their capabilities and breed specifics to keep them happy and engaged dogs.

I never said "JUST" dogs.. I said dogs.  Big difference.
Like I said.  Good luck.
Perry

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

Whatever Perry, you are entitled to your opinion.

Our dogs always have been treated as more than dogs.  Our cats are also treated as more than cats.  It's just the way that both of us were brought up.  Always worked out in the past so I'm hopeful that it will work out in this case as well.

Joe had a much better day yesterday.  I talked to the trainer late Wednesday evening about Joe's behavior.  Most times when he's gotten "squirrely" with Jim, it's right after walk time when he's still all amped up.  Joe loves his twice daily walks!  Her advice was to try and keep the two separated until Joe settles down until training starts and she's had a chance to observe his behavior personally and then she'll be able to provide some insight as far as can his behavior be modified and so forth.  The morning was a little crazy for all of us.  We bought a new dishwasher and the install was yesterday.  We remodeled the kitchen after the old was installed (like 3 years) and our contractor installed a new floor on top of the old floor which left about 1/4" free space to remove the old unit and the same amount to get the new unit in.  Poor guy had to use a sawz-all to cut off the legs and had to cut something on the top as well.  The dishwasher fell out almost on top of him.  He succeeded and left in one piece.  Bottom line was that we had people walking in and out of the kitchen that Joe didn't know (installer's boss and owner both came over to make sure that the new unit could be put in place before cutting the old unit into pieces).  So Joe was a little riled up over all the commotion in the kitchen.  We had afternoon walks on schedule.  I brought up some tear-out to work on upstairs until Joe quieted down.  We played ball/tossed Frisbee's for 15-20 minutes before supper.  Had our after supper walks and even though I increased Joe's by a block all around, he was still really keyed up when I got back with Jim.  Joe always comes out when Jim gets home so I left Joe out and got Jim in and situated.  Then I went out and played ball/Frisbee with Joe for about 15 minutes.  His tongue was dragging pretty good so I thought he was ready to settle down but he was not ready to settle down yet.  Let him run the back yard by himself until he barked at the back door (maybe 25 minutes).  Let him in and he settled right down until it was time to go out for bedtime bathroom break. 

All that leads me to hope that even though I've been playing outside with him lots, it has just not been enough.  He's not been willing to stay out by himself until this week.  I've been trying consistently to get him outside and he's always barked and jumped at the door before.  The weather is so nice now plus we bought him some outside play toys that he really likes so he's better about staying outside for a while.

Joe needs to learn that we are in charge and to stop whatever he's doing when told.  Our rules have always been pretty simple: go to the bathroom outside, don't destroy furniture, don't kill and or eat our cats.  Now we have a new one: don't jump on Jim's bad hips.  Joe's got 1 down pat.  We're working on 2 as he likes to chew on chair legs, tables, etc.  3 should probably be modified to ignore cats since ours are old and not likely to accept Joe.  #4 is the big one.  If I have to spend more time playing with Joe outside this summer, I will do so.  Dogs age and as they age, they become less frenetic.  Also, remember that Jim is on very limited time, depending on winter weather and being a 12+ year old dog pretty much anything can go wrong between now & winter.

If, after obedience training, the trainer feels that his behavior cannot be modified we will take him back with very great sadness.  Meanwhile I will do whatever to keep that from happening.  If that makes me a martyr, whatever.  I feel that Joe's worth it.

Virginia

[bobbin]

Introduce Joe to his new best friends.  Mr. Leash and Mr. Training Collar (I don't use the term "choke" collar; they only choke if they're put on incorrectly).  Joe goes nowhere without them.  He will wear them in the house, too, but only when you're home to monitor the situation.  Joe must be under your control (or easily within your control) from now on.  He clearly needs to learn that you are the captain of the dog ship! and it's clear from your posts that your captainship is still very much a bone of contention.  IMO the most important commands are "sit", "down", and "stay".  And learn the hand commands, too! (invaluable).  You can train your wayward mutt in 20 minutes a day if you require him to learn those commands.  3 Ps= patience, practice, praise.  I don't like using food treats, only used praise and lavish pats to train our dog;  100lbs., 1 1/2 yrs., out of control, and with a serious "working dog" mentality; "large and in charge".  The trainers who taught the obedience classes we took said "working dogs" can be tough to train, but once you "crack the nut", they make fabulous companions.  They were right!

Everything in his life must be controlled by you or your husband.  And you two need to have to use the same commands and require the same level of compliance.  He must sit and wait until you release him before he: 
1.)  ascends or descends a staircase.
2.)  enters or exits a home/room. 
3.)  receives a "treat" or is fed.
4.)  gets into or out of a car.
5.)  he must "down/stay" and hang out quietly while he awaits your next command.
Every simple aspect of his life must be controlled by you.  End of story. 

[Virgs Sew n Sew]

bobbin:

Thanks so much!  What are hand commands?  Is that like taking your hand down when you want him to stop jumping and that type of thing?  I'll google hand commands later today to see what I can find.

Joe wears his new collar 24-7.  I'll start with the lead in the house until he quiets down.  I quite agree that captainship is still being negotiated.  Obviously a smart dog based on how quickly he housebroke.  Our old vet in KS emailed me that heelers are too smart for their own good sometimes and I believe I understand what he means.  Joe knows sit, down (shaky) and stay not yet.  I'll work on stay as well.

Thanks again for your info.  Makes perfect sense to me.

Virginia