Canvas Overlocking Question

[baileyuph]

In much of my canvas work, overlocked seams are observed, what equipment(s) are likely used for that?

I see it on large patio umbrellas, the thread size observed suggest something bigger than
a three or four thread home serger.

Most of this seaming I see is probably over 10 years old, if that makes a difference.

Canvas edge fraying is the essence of this question.

Doyle

[momto3fatdogs]

My experience is limited, so take it for what it's worth - but are you "repairing frayed seams" or asking what to use to "prevent" fraying seams on canvas? I have a Wilcox & Gibbs 5-thread overlocker & this sucker runs thru 4 layers of canvas like it's quilting cotton..........It's an older machine & I bought it reconditioned. I am pretty sure I won't use it a whole lot in upholstery, but I do in slipcovers.

Sam

[baileyuph]

Thanks for your comments SAM.

On your 5-spooler, can you use the thread we use for work exposed to the outside elements?

This problem is outside umbrella seams in relatively heavy canvas (some type of synthetic I am sure) and the overlock seam would be visable and exposed.

Can you use, for example, poly thread 69 for example in your Wilcox and Gibbs?

That would work for my situation. 

Thanks again,

Doyle

[momto3fatdogs]

I have not tried using thread that heavy - but I think it COULD be adjusted (tension knobs..) to use thicker thread. I know when I posted pictures of my *new to me* machines - that there was another forum member that has the SAME machine.

Let me root around & see if I can find his name for you. He's had his much longer than I have had mine & would hopefully have better answers for you on whether or not the machine can use the specific type of thread that you're asking about.

Sam

[momto3fatdogs]

I looked back on my old posts & I think it's bobbin that has a Wilcox & Gibbs overlocker. You may try & contact her & see if she can better answer your question.

I know that doesn't help you much, but it's the best I can do. (sorry!)

Sam

[bobbin]

DB,
Generally speaking  most overlock work (to prevent fraying/raveling) is done with thread that is lighter in weight than that used for joining/topstitching work.  The reason is simple... it's a lot cheaper!  You have to provide 3 cones to effect a "top shelf" overlock (3 thread) and if you are setting up a shop to offer coordinating thread colors that can become expensive.  My W&G is a 5 thread and I always buy 5 cones of thread so I can use the safety stitch if I so choose.   

If the overlock work is hidden from sunlight you can opt for nylon thread to shave some cost. For your purposes, this is what I'd advise.  If you don't have an overlock machine look for a used Merrow, Rimoldi, or Yamato.  Great machines and the latter two are commonly available on the "used" market. 

MTTD,  I just converted my W&G to a servo motor.  Should  have done it sooner.  I love it!

[baileyuph]

The only machine I have to do overlocking is intended for clothing weights.  But, it turns out, ironically so, that one has been given me but I haven't gone to pick it up.  I don't know anything about it, brand or anything.  Busy busy here and just haven't had an hour or so to pick the thing up. 

I do not expect to be doing a lot of umbrella work, this one at issue is a long time repeat customer.  The material is COM, much heavier than the original equipment.  The situation is I would like for this project to look professional and the panels are lock stitched together then overlocked to secure the selvages. 

So, given that I might have a machine, by picking it up, that is the reason I was asking about the thread size. 

The existing umbrella over lock seams have done the job, therefore polyester was my thought having held up so well. 

That is how I got into this project, I don't think there is enough market to go for that type of business. 

With that thanks for all the information, in time, I will pick up the machine given to me (if still available to me) and will play with it and could have more questions.  It is industrial level equipment, comes with a motor and stand.

Not sure if my domestic overlockers (3,5, & 8 spool) will do the job, plus the thread issue is still there since this is an umbrella.

The factory overlocked seam looks very professional.

Thanks again all,

Doyle

[momto3fatdogs]

Doyle, I have a Janome MyLock 204D serger - it is used for clothing exclusively. It's loud as hell even when I am only sewing regular fabric or jersey knits! If I use any other fabric than apparel, it eats the blades - I mean that they go dull VERY fast and have to be replaced. It's just cheaper to replace them then sharpen them. I think that if I used upholstery fabric or anything heavy it would just give up.

I also have the servo motor on my Wilcox & Gibbs. I love it. No noise! (My normal daytime job is working at a landfill. I hear heavy equipment all day. Back-up beepers, grousers, tracks, trucks......noise all day. that silent motor is a blessing when I'm using it.)

[baileyuph]

Good input people.  Here is where I am at:  The guy who wants to give me a 5 thread (I don't think it is a 4) has another 5 thread he uses.  He suggested I sew on it and did.  It is more of a surging process but works like a dream on vinyls and heavier mateials.  He has no problem using heavier threads. 

Anyway, on this canvas job which is waiting, I have a solution for he said just come and do that seaming on his nicer machine.

I understand the point about the cutter blade, they have to be sharp and engineered for the work, otherwise something like auto work would kill the thing.

Not sure I want to take the machine offered for free.  The canvas market here has not been that strong. 

But, in my original auto upholstery work, leathers, etc. what ever the original was, the sew foam and NOS materials are joined at factories by a seam that isn't exactly a serged seam but similar.  Where the serg and overlock terms apply still is a question for me.

It would be easier if the exact machine GM and Ford interior work used during manufacture was known?  Their interior contractors that is.

Doye

[Grebo]

I have an ELna 744 , 4 thread. (They now do a 5 thread). It's a heavyweight domestic. I got it in case I needed different stitches ( turns out I don't) I use it for sunbrella cushion weight & general upholstery which is going to fray. I have not tried any threads other than standard overlocker, as bobbin said you don't need it if it stays out of the sun.
I haven't changed the original cutting blade, 'yet' but I think it's probably overdue as sometimes the fabric gets jammed.  :-[
I did try an industrial once, which I could not get on with, it was forever breaking threads. With hindsight I think the shop was too humid for it & the tension disks continually had a covering of surface rust.

Suzi

[bobbin]

I come from a garment background.  A 5 thread machine is the most versatile for garment work.  You can join and overlock (5 thread) or simply overlock (3 thread).  A 3 thread overlock is suitable for joining pcs. because it isn't a "chain stitch" and that means breakage in the stitch pattern won't cause a "chain" reaction failure of the entire joining seam (you would use this in say, swimwear/dancewear). 

A 3 thread overlock isn't important if all you wish to do is overlock a raw edge to prevent fraying.  A two thread overlock will do that nicely. 

Consider that a seam accomplished with a safety stitch (chain stitch) and a 2 or 3 thread overlock stitch will never seen sun.  UV eats nylon and cotton thread... if thread is going to be exposed to UV then you must use 100% polyester or Goretex thread. 

Nearly all overlock machines can  be adjusted to accommodate any fabric weight, although a machine asked to handle especially heavy weight goods should be specifically ordered.  My W&G will handle very stout upholstery fabrics, although I have to put in some time loosening tensions to get a properly adjusted stitch.  The more you work with an overlock machine the more you learn how much "tweak" is required to deliver a quality stitch.  I can go from upholstery weight to shirt weight rayon in under 3 minutes... all it takes is practice!

Because I don't use my overlock to join widths, I use only lightweight thread.  It's proven the most versatile for me because I do so much garment work.  And the same weight thread is sufficient to overlock raw edges on slipcovers. 

What make and model is the machine you can have free, DB?  (I'd jump on it, personally). 

[byhammerandhand]

Is an Overlock machine the same as a serger?

[bobbin]

A "serger" is the common name given to machines that perform an overedge stitch to prevent fraying.  It's become a commonly used term but is very misleading and if you look over my posts on this very topic you see that I "harp" on this very  point, and do so for a very good reason.   

Correctly used, the "serge" stitch is a 3 thread overlock stitch, NOT the 2 thread (chainstitch) overedge.  A "serge" stitch (remember it's 3 threads) is suitable for joining two pcs. of fabric in a manner that will not fail if one of the threads gives way.  Why? because there is an anchor thread (needle) around which the two bottom loopers (each with their own thread feed) form the final stitch pattern.  Consider that a 2 thread overlock, broken at the crucial intersection of the stitch will break and "free fall" failure will result; the needle thread is the basis of the stitch, a looper and a spreader work in unison to spread one bottom thread around the needle to form the overedge..  That's why 2 thread chain stitches are "dangerous" in joining pcs..  2 thread overlocks are fine to prevent fraying of fabric, but they are not suitable for joining widths unless the additional 2 thread safety stitch is also used.   

I am a stickler for the proper terminology and it's for a reason.  If you understand what the names mean to a mechanic and a salesman you will be better served if you wish to shop the "used" market. 

[bobbin]

Hammer, I just thought of this.  When I bought my used W&G (1986-7) it was set up in a 4 thread configuration.  2 threads for the safety stitch, and two threads for the overedge.   My machine is prolly a late '70s model, made in Japan (doesn't get any better than that!).

If a spreader is used to produce a 2 thread overedge it can be replaced with a looper and doing so will require the machine be threaded with an additional cone of thread.  That is precisely what I did with my W&G (I still have the spreader in my "bag of tricks"). 

In a production setting a 4 thread configuration is a cost saving measure... thread is expensive and if you're able to minimize thread costs you automatically minimize the labor cost required of operators who no longer have to fiddle with adjustments to 3 threads... it's fractions on pennies, but factored into the overall cost... and over thousands of items... .  It all adds up.

[Grebo]

A "serger" is the common name given to machines that perform an overedge stitch to prevent fraying.  It's become a commonly used term but is very misleading and if you look over my posts on this very topic you see that I "harp" on this very  point, and do so for a very good reason.   

Correctly used, the "serge" stitch is a 3 thread overlock stitch, NOT the 2 thread (chainstitch) overedge.  A "serge" stitch (remember it's 3 threads) is suitable for joining two pcs. of fabric in a manner that will not fail if one of the threads gives way.  Why? because there is an anchor thread (needle) around which the two bottom loopers (each with their own thread feed) form the final stitch pattern.  Consider that a 2 thread overlock, broken at the crucial intersection of the stitch will break and "free fall" failure will result; the needle thread is the basis of the stitch, a looper and a spreader work in unison to spread one bottom thread around the needle to form the overedge..  That's why 2 thread chain stitches are "dangerous" in joining pcs..  2 thread overlocks are fine to prevent fraying of fabric, but they are not suitable for joining widths unless the additional 2 thread safety stitch is also used.   

I am a stickler for the proper terminology and it's for a reason.  If you understand what the names mean to a mechanic and a salesman you will be better served if you wish to shop the "used" market. 

Cor I never knew all that.
That's what the spreader is for.  :-[
I thought that it was us foreigners calling it an overlocker & you guys calling it a serger.
My little Elna is actually a duo machine ( never again ) So it's either a serger come coverhem or an overlocker come coverlock ..   ???

Suzi