Got to decide between 2 Jukis

[Cheryl]

My 2 cents...  I just had my Juki 562 worked on (first time ever) since I bought it in 1983..  the  mechanic replaced the hook, everything else is perfectly fine.. she runs as new as the day she was born.  Don't discount these machines because of age.    I also have one its Singer counterparts.    A workhorse is a workhorse.    ;)

[sofadoc]

To me, what Bob said only reaffirms what I said in my first reply.
$1200 is $300 too much for a dealer-rebuilt 563.

Bob: What year was the last 563 made?

[baileyuph]

My 2 cents...  I just had my Juki 562 worked on (first time ever) since I bought it in 1983..  the  mechanic replaced the hook, everything else is perfectly fine.. she runs as new as the day she was born.  Don't discount these machines because of age.    I also have one its Singer counterparts.    A workhorse is a workhorse

My experience also Cheryl, and to add;  I just love all those OEM attachments (feet) that I bought back then. 

A friend also in our type of business has some Pfaff machines and will pick up an OEM Pfaff attachment now and then when the opportunity arises.  He has noted a difference between generic.  He commented just last week, that the OEM feet are getting harder to find.  Understandable, I suppose.

Doyle

[baileyuph]

Thanks for your comments Bob.

I can identify with your class 16 comments.  Would you believe that if a convertible top (this would be a very old convertible BTW) job comes up, at a friends shop, he has one that he said is identical to what factories used for convertible top manufacturing back in the 30's until when?  But the friend will use his Singer 16 series, wish I could remember the full nomenclature, to do a custom converible top today.  I test sewed on it and it has the power!  He says there is no problem obtaining parts, has't bought much of anything except needles and tension stuff.

Doyle

[Tejas]

Most of my work-life was in technology, including about 20-years working with Asia, including almost 10-years in Japan. Japan exploited quality US-developed quality control. A classic example was with Ford transmissions built to the same specifications in the US and Japan.

http://www.flexstudy.com/catalog/schpdf.cfm?coursenum=9529a

"Ford and Mazda were producing identical transmission components in the United States and Japan using the same blueprints, equipment, and processes. The Ford assemblies were experiencing a higher rate of field failures. Upon examining the critical dimensions produced by the Ford plant, all were found to be within acceptable tolerances. However, upon examining the Mazda-built components, nearly all were precisely on target with almost no variation within the allowable tolerance. The explanation is that in mechanical assemblies, excessive variation from design targets causes premature wear, eventually resulting in early field failure."

Just saying why I decided on a Juki.

[Toledo Mach. Sales]

sofadoc,
  I think they quit the 563's in 2000.
Bob

[baileyuph]

Code Select Expand

However, upon examining the Mazda-built components, nearly all were precisely on target with almost no variation within the allowable tolerance. The explanation is that in mechanical assemblies, excessive variation from design targets causes premature wear, eventually resulting in early field failure."

Just saying why I decided on a Juki.

What you just said, the philosophy of the Japanese worker is do a job that doesn't reflect bad work, was the thrust of an article that appeared in our newpaper withing a few days ago. 

Their cars back in the late 50's and somewhat in the 60's were cheap but not great cars.  They rusted as bad as any.  But, look where they are today!  That pride attitude has brought them to the top of the pile.  Usually a product from Japan or Germany are quality and a bit pricey, their standards in Japan have changed, it appears.  Some off the cuff remarks from many is; give China time and they will be on top of the pile also, they may not be where they will end up in time.

So, there is reason, probably survival, for the US to get things in gear and back to producing quality jobs first!  Otherwise it won't be very good at the bottom of the pile. 

What happened?

Doyle

[Addison]

They are somehow good. But come to think what you really want and why.

[gene]

Hey Tejas,

That Ford transmission plant was near me, in Batavia, OH. The street name was 'Front Wheel Drive'. Koolist street name ever.

I took a statistical analysis class  taught by a guy from GE who was involved with this issue. He said what they found was that American workers manufactured within tolerances, and Japanese workers manufactured for perfection. If the tolerances were +- .002, the Americans would set the lathe bit in - .002 and as the work shift went on the lathe bit would wear down and the lathe bit would eventually be cutting at +.002 and the worker would then adjust the lathe bit back to -.002.

The Japanese worker would set the lathe bit at .000 and constantly adjust the lathe bit to remain at .000.

I liked the comment in the article from 1979 that said quality is free. Someone on this board said, "How can you have the time and money to fix it when you didn't have the time and money to do it right the first time?"

Quality: "ability to satisfy given needs". We've talked a lot about this on this board. When is good enough "good enough"?

I have a Juki 562 that I absolutely love.

gene

[sofadoc]

Time is money. American factories don't have the time to waste trying to get the tolerances just right. Japanese factories do have the time because they aren't paying their employees as much.

Just a hunch, I have absolutely no first hand knowledge or statistical data to back up my wild hypothesis. ;D

So are you guys saying that if you had a choice of a 20 year old Japanese made machine, or a brand new Chinese model.......both in the $1000-$1200 range........you would take the older one?

I sewed on a 562 for over 20 years. Great machine. The only reason that I replaced it was because I stumbled up on a LU-1508 on Craigslist for $375. So I love the older Jukis as much as anyone. But I ain't paying a grand for one.

[byhammerandhand]

If you are as old as I am, you can remember in the 50s and 60s when "Made in Japan" meant junk stuff.   

Post WWII there was an American quality expert that helped rebuild Japan's economy.   He was treated like a god in Japan but largely ignored by US industry,  though a few companies jumped on board in the 80s and 90s.   
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Some of his gems:

to the question above: Acceptable Defects: Rather than waste efforts on zero-defect goals, Deming stressed the importance of establishing a level of variation, or anomalies, acceptable to the recipient (or customer) in the next phase of a process. Often, some defects are quite acceptable, and efforts to remove all defects would be an excessive waste of time and money.

Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.  (remember such slogans as "Quality is Job 1?")

The company I worked for at the time kept sticking its toe in these waters (generally until financial crunches appeared, usually every 2-3 years) and some parts/localities worked at ISO certification.   That, IMO, was first to document things to make sure you do things consistently, then you can improve on them.   In other words, you can't improve what you don't do the same way all the time.

[sofadoc]

In my high school days, I had a brief "career" in the high flyin' world of muffler manufacturing. The company made OEM mufflers for the major American made cars.

We had tolerances to abide by. The ones that met those tolerances were shipped out to Ford, GM, or Chrysler. The ones that didn't quite meet the specs were sent to after-market suppliers such as NAPA, Sears, or Monkey Wards.

I suspect that the same system still exists today for generic welt feet, and other sewing machine parts. Again, just another wild hypothesis on my part. ;)

In the 60's, Japanese products were the joke of most any industry. By the late 70's, they had almost completely turned that reputation around.
I was working at Texas Instruments in the early 80's. They were trying to instill the Japanese work ethic on us by teaching their methods and policies. All we got from it was that they were trying to get the most amount of productivity for the least amount of pay. Needless to say, it went over like a lead balloon.

And eventually, the Japanese workers rebelled as well.
That's why China is the new Japan.

[gene]

OK. I just had a birthday so I will lament my getting old by saying that I don't think anyone is as old as byhammerandhand.

There are blue monkeys that live on one of the moons of Saturn, probably Titus, that control the world economy. This is one of my wild hypotheses.

Edward Deming's business models helped to make an island nation with no natural resources a global manufacturing power.

I don't know if Japan could have done anything in light of China's cheap labor.

One of Demings' core premises was that a company should make decisions based on what was best for the workers. If the company did this, then the company would survive and the workers would continue to have jobs. Japan stopped doing this in the 1990's when they became more American and started going after the quick financial gain irregardless of how it affected the company or the workers.

China has nothing to do with Deming's work models. China is about exploiting cheap labor with no regards to the environmental and health effects it is having.

China is more about the all mighty dollar than the USA ever was.

Just my thoughts after a long day. I am finally get quite good at nailing decorative tacks.

gene

[byhammerandhand]

Happy Birthday, Gene, despite your snide comment.


As a side note, I got together with most of my cousins on my dad's side and my sisters.  We reviewed some old family photos (many in the late 19th century).   Told stories about what we knew.   And we marveled at how much we have all come to look like one relative or the other that was not so obvious when we were young.  Times seem to have been a lot harder back then (most of my ancestors were farmers, up to and including my father and uncle).

[Mojo]

One thing that I think about when it comes to auto manufacturing is the warranties. Remember when the Korean cars were nothing but junk ? They turned their quality programs around and now offer the best warranties in the car business. Yet Ford and GM has yet to match their warranties. How can one car maker offer exceptional warranties and the others wont ? Lack of confidence in their product ?

There are companies who will manufacture a product knowing it has suspect parts and components but they find it cheaper to fix some of the failed products under warranty then to make them right the first time off the factory floor. I think many of you see this with furniture these days.

It seems like there is a lack of pride in products these days. The products I make are probably over manufactured by most standards but my pride will not allow me to make them any other way. I also offer the best warranty among my competitors, simply because I believe in my product.

Chris