In review

[kodydog]

Here's what I'm talking about corporate welfare. How can a company receive $500 million dollars in govern't loans, then claim bankruptcy and now they want to give out $500 k bonuses to remaining employes. How can you run a company into the ground then expect bonuses. Those loans were given with our money folks. Funny thing is a similar thing happened when we bailed out the banks.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/12/solyndra-reportedly-seeking-to-award-bonuses-to-remaining-employees/

[bobbin]

I wonder if anyone besides Hammer. has listened to the week long series on business in the US that has been on Morning Edition on NPR?  Additionally, there was a very interesting segment on The Diane Rehm Show yesterday, concerning the fracas in the Republican circle about Mitt Romney and Bain...

An interesting aside for Mike 802, I received the HBO series, "John Adams" for Christmas.  In it is an interesting discussion of Alexander Hamiliton and the necessity, worth, and benefit of national debt.  It is also interesting to note that following Andrew Jackson's elimination of the national debt our country was plunged into dreadful boom and bust fluctuations in our economy... the likes of which were only alleviated after the formation of the Federal Reserve nearly 100 yrs. later.  I appreciate a good deal of things about Ron Paul, however his attachment to the gold standard is not one of them. 

[mike802]

Bobbin:  I have a little different prospective here than HBO http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/11thmarble.php  He explains what I tried to above, only a little more eloquently.

As far as Ron Paul goes, I don't know if gold and silver is the best medium of exchange, but if you believe the constitution is the law of the land than any other currency is illegal, because it states that only gold and silver can be used.  I would much rather have a value based currency over a faith based currency.  Every nation that ever had a fiat currency collapsed and I think we are witnessing that right now in America.  It is true that gold and silver value can be manipulated, but it is much easier to do it with a faith based currency.  I was looking at a chart a while back that showed the value of the dollar has been reduced about 95% since the birth of the federal reserve.

You might get a kick out of this video.  Caution some fowl language. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f09lw7FDWM

[bobbin]

Mike, I hope you didn't think I was trying to insult you by recommending the "John Adams" series.  I wasn't. 

I found it interesting because it showed two of our "founding fathers" involved in a very basic discussion about how the nascent USA should proceed in its attempt to make its way in the greater world.  What struck me was that they discussed it, something that no longer happens with any reqularity (let alone civility)  in our faction-riven houses of Congress.  I would urge you to read David McCullough's magnificent biography of John Adams.   On my reading list is a biography of the brilliant Alexander Hamilton, truly a visionary and to whom our country owes more than the cursory mention he usually receives in the dumbed down history requirements taught in our public schools! There was far more to the man than his grisly, head-line death in a duel with Aaron Burr.  As Andrew Jackson found after he eliminated the national debt!

I found the first link rather short sighted, thin on facts, and a bit too self-serving to be of much use, although I did get a chuckle out of the "dirty" link.  However, it's important to note that the boom/bust cycles of the 19th. century were more frequent and oftentimes worse than any we suffered in the 20th. century, mostly because they were so frequent "recovery" was rarely possible.  The fact that its greatest victims were usually immigrants or the poor is usually downplayed.  And it's only fair to point out that the Great Depression had more to do with "trading on the margin" and lax capitalization requirements on banks; hence the bank closure put in place when the "bank runs" began to occur.  That has been addressed, although I'm not sure the last go-round in '08 didn't underscore the need for a good deal more oversight.  You should read David Wessel's "In Fed We Trust" for an excellent overview of the '08 meltdown. 

As for the Constitution:  it's a vascular document, as the amendments to it testify.  You may not like all of them (neither do I or a lot of other people for that matter!), but the greater point is that nothing contained in it is carved in stone and that's why our country is so great and so interesting.  If you feel so passionately about returning to a currency base in gold/silver/pinecones then you must vote in the person who'll be successful in ushering in an amendment to that fact.  The rest of the world operates on a "faith based" currency; in fact, I think an argument could be made that any currency is basically "faith based".  Do you envision a return to gold coins in lieu of paper currency? how would you handle the worldwide transfer of that gold/silver/pinecones?  The logistics are monumental... you can't transfer gold/silver/pinecones that rapidly without a "faith based" system. I don't foresee that sort of change happening any time soon. 

In point of fact, I think our troubles are less based in the creation of the Federal Reserve and the move away from the gold standard and more to do with uneven tax policy, too many "loopholes" (esp. for major corporations! and the wealthy/voters!), a military-industrial based economy, short-sighted foreign policy, and greed and laziness on too great a portion of our populace.  There is plenty of blame to spread around, isn't there?  We agree that our country is heading for a big "wake up call".  You grow your own food, so do we.  We don't carry debt here, either.  And we daily wonder where we'll be on the day we die.  Health care?? we have none... if we opt to purchase it we'll have to forefo retirement savings.  We've opted to take our chances...

[mike802]

Bobbin, no I was not offended in anyway, I enjoy our talks and its nice to get a different prospective.  The link I posted wasn't really meant to be a fact filled documentary, but rather a short simplified version of the bigger problem.  Economist working for the powers that be, like to complicate the issue to the point everyone starts arguing over nit picky points and miss the fact that the whole system is a huge ponzi scheme.   As I am sure you understand, the fed is run by a bunch of people, "owners" who may, or may not be American citizens, it is a private business which creates our money out of thin air.  This money is lent to our government at interest, interest that was never created and can never be paid back.

This makes our currency backed by dept.  The system works as long as there is a large enough amount of new money, or debt being created to pay on the old, but once the creation of new money slows down huge problems start to arise and the pyramid starts to collapse.  To shore it up the fed prints more money, thus lowering the value of the money already in circulation, inflation.  The real evil of this system is true wealth is transferred to those bankers at the top for next to nothing on their part, when a borrower cant pay the hard asset is acquired by the bank and for what, ink and paper.   A lot of people have a child like trust in the gov. they think it is benevolent  and is here to help us live good lives, unfortunately that trust is misplaced. The second evil of this system is explained in the quote I gave from Amschel Rothschild above, he meant that once he had control over a nations currency he controlled that nation, the nation was no longer sovereign.  This is the real reason we have wars, the bankers want complete control, so they start a war, sell weapons to both sides, lend money to both sides to rebuild and both nations become indebted to the banks, thus controlled by the people who own the banks.  In short the people of a nation indebted to the banks become slaves for the bankers.  The nations greatest resource, its peoples ability to create and produce becomes indentured to the debt, debt that can not be paid.  Yes most of the worlds economy's are based on fiat currency, the bankers have been busy, and this makes the mess we are in very troublesome, this also is the reason we are seeing signs of collapse all over the world, the euro is just handing on and if it goes, I think it might create a domino effect.  It is true we cannot switch over to a value based currency overnight, I question if America even has the gold to do it, but regardless of what eventually becomes our medium of exchange, I think our nation should be responsible for it's creation, not a private entity, I think the gov. should spend the money in to circulation not barrow it into circulation.  Obviously some kind of accounting and thus taxation would have to take place to keep the money supply from growing to the point that inflation takes over.   Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we have to have a monitory system based on precious metals, I think it is more important to have that system controlled by the people, for the benefit of the people, not a privet business with alliterative motives.  Yes our constitution can be changed, but it takes a constitutional amendment to accomplish that, a very difficult undertaking.

I read somewhere that the boom and bust cycles of the 19th century were actually contrived by the bankers to sell the U.S into yet another central bank, which of course became the federal reserve.  I wish I had that article at my finger tips, but unfortunately I do not at this time.  The fed. actually came out and admitted that they caused the great depression of the 30's, unfortunately the safe guards put in place to assure it wouldn't happen again have been removed.  The boom and bust cycles of the 20th century may not have been as frequent, but they have been just as damaging, if not more so. We have the S&L scandal, the dot com bubble, Barnie Maddoff, and the worst financial scandal in the history of the world, that makes all others pale in comparison, the mortgage backed securities fraud, unfortunately no one has gone to prison for that one, yet.

[mike802]

I agree that the rich and the big corporations do not carry their share of the tax burden, they are after all the ones who buy the congressmen who make the laws.  But unfortunately it all comes back the the reality that the interest on the debt that was acquired when the money was borrowed into existence was never created, so it cant be paid, no matter how many taxes are levied.

My wife and I also grow as much of our food as possible, unfortunately I am a poor farmer.  We try real hard, but end up having to tend to our business during times we should be weeding, or harvesting.  To do it right it really has to take a front row seat in your life.  I probably try to do to much and end up with less than if I scaled back and grew less.  We continue to work at it and we are getting better, every year we have a larger harvest, but this means we have to spend more time canning and preserving, but it sure is nice this time of year to open up a can of organic produce right out of the garden.  We do have health insurance, but it is about worthless, we are giving serious consideration about dropping it.  We are learning how to be responsible for our own health.  We have gone out on a limb and given some things a try that we were leery of at first, but they worked and now we use then religiously and feel we would only need a trip to the hospital if we suffered of some kind trauma.   We also carry as little debt as we can get away with, but my wife and my son went through collage and my youngest son may return, so we are carrying that debt, still have a small mortgage on the house.  I know what you mean about wondering what this will all come to.  I can't even envision a retirement at this time, we save as much as we can and convert that into silver because I don't trust the dollar to hold it's value.  If the system does collapse it is going to be bad, real bad, I don't know if anyone can really feel, or be prepared for that?  I do support Ron Paul, but I don't know if they will let him win, or live if he does win.  What ever happens, I think things are going to get very interesting.