Caning - How is matching finishes best handled?

[baileyuph]

The typical issue of matching caning (finish that is) comes up often in dining room chairs where the original cane was sheet cane and finished often was laquer at the factory. now one of the chairs got damaged and matching replacement with the original is a major issue.

Some 30 or more years ago, manufacturers were able to apply a stain that I envy, I suppose it was or is a laquer?

It would be interesting to understand others achievements with this subject.

These jobs come up and to "just" apply lacquer doesn't get the matching job done easily.

Hopefully, some good experience will be shared.

Doyle

[SteveA]

The difficulty in matching colors is not the materials.  You have to know how your stains and toners behave. This difficulty goes away with experience.  For matching an existing color of just one chair seat when not refinishing the wood I mostly use japan colors and spray can toners that are dye lacquers or pigment lacquers with clear top coats.  Armed with those materials will help take away some experimenting.  Ask away - I'll try my best to help you -

SA

[baileyuph]

Experience, as anything is right Steve.

Required supplies, toners, dyes, etc. are not routinely on supply sheves as I recall several years ago.  Therefore, I guess what follows is use the net for supplies?

Intuitive, get the supplies and practice on scraps of caning following instructions on spray cans.  That is the experience you have to gain.  

In application to the chair being worked on, there is room for a lot of tips during color applications; for example how best to mask around and get stain where caning overlaps.  

Are caning materials primarily on surface procedures?  Never noticed cane to absorb stain.  

In thinking, there are a lot of questions to be answered.  Then, the ultimate task of matching caning and how the finishing procedure is accomplished to produce a satisfying match.

Lots of questions in my mind.  Cane that appears to have been installed raw, no coloring ages as we know, therefore that is part of the matching question when installing new cane.  You don't!  Is that the answer?

Installing prewoven cane comes up and I jump in when there are not the myriad of matching questions.  

Even at that rate there are usually a few challenges just to get the old cane out and the new in, often in the area of cleaning out the old cane/spline groove.  It is so easy to disturb the nearby chair finish.

I bought a special router for clearing the groove, it works if the router is driven accurately and set at the right depth.  Again, during use the requirement to protect the chair frame finish keeps you intensive.

Back to finishes, are they fast drying (lacquer)?  No oils ever used because of the low absorption of cane materials?

You done a lot of this Steve?

Doyle



School is never out, one keeps learning and that said, glues applied to cane work has changed as glues available have changed. 

On a piece of over 100 years old (sheet cane back then?) surely glues used back then (whenever sheet cane was initiated) aren't the same as today.  I suppose those were the natural based glues like used in normal frame gluing?

I just finished caning a childs rocker (sheet cane) that was around 100 years old.  The lady said it belonged to her mother, the age is logical as this lady is over 70.

Nothing is simple.......

[byhammerandhand]

I have tried a few times without success using lacquer-based toners.   It does not seem to stick well to the slick cane surface.   I have my caning done by a long-time friend and his wife who have done caning for many years.  They did not have any advice other than let it age gracefully.

Up to the 1940s, most woodworking glues were hide glue.  You can recognize it by its dark brown color.  Luthiers and conservators / restorers like it because it's reversible, you can easily un-glue by adding water or steam.   Also, when you apply new hide glue over bits of old, it will reamalgamate and stick better than other glues over themselves.   So caners like it for the same reasons.   You can still get this in flake or liquid form.  The flakes you mix with water and use hot.   The liquid has a gel suppressor so you can use cold.   If you buy the liquid, check the date because it has a shelf life of about 1 year.

http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=9e9995b4-08eb-4fc6-8254-c47daa20f8ed



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[SteveA]

I guess I've done a few chairs through the years :>) ......  old school hand weaving to routing a groove for machine cane then installation + coloring for both.
The coloring method I've already mentioned.  The glue I use for machine cane is the yellow glue. White will give you a little more open time.

For natural cane (no color) I use shellac and sometimes tweak the shellac a tiny bit with trans tint or alcohol based aniline powder dyes.  The powders are way cheaper but trans tints are good because the inventor knew the colors restorers are after and they dissolve easier - powders need a push


SA

[kodydog]

Here's what works for me. For the last 15 years I've worked with a guy that does some amazing stuff with wood working, wicker, caning and refinishing. I send him work and he sends me work. I specialize in upholstery and he specializes in refinishing. Sometimes when you try to do it all you can get really bogged down. I get plenty of work doing what I do and he the same. I can do minor touch-ups and even a little lacquer spraying from cans. But I'm simply not set up for full blown refinishing. He has the dip tanks and spray room with exhaust fans.

If you have the knowledge and are set up for this type work, that's great. But it can get very frustrating trying to put on a professional finish with less than professional equipment. Here in Florida we have a big problem with humidity. Even blush retarder doesn't work.

I get customers who want a lighter (or darker) finish. Try to do that with spray can toners.

All I'm saying is me personally, I just don't need the hassle.

[sofadoc]

Here's what works for me. For the last 15 years I've worked with a guy that does some amazing stuff with wood working, wicker, caning and refinishing. I send him work and he sends me work. I specialize in upholstery and he specializes in refinishing. Sometimes when you try to do it all you can get really bogged down. I get plenty of work doing what I do and he the same. I can do minor touch-ups and even a little lacquer spraying from cans. But I'm simply not set up for full blown refinishing. He has the dip tanks and spray room with exhaust fans.

If you have the knowledge and are set up for this type work, that's great. But it can get very frustrating trying to put on a professional finish with less than professional equipment. Here in Florida we have a big problem with humidity. Even blush retarder doesn't work.

I get customers who want a lighter (or darker) finish. Try to do that with spray can toners.

All I'm saying is me personally, I just don't need the hassle.

Ditto everything you said.

I also have a nearby refinishing shop that I work with. We've been sending work to each other for over 25 years.

I have no interest whatsoever in learning to do professional refinishing. Like you, I'll do some simple touch-up, or hit it with a spray can for customers that don't have refinishing in their budget.

Even if I wanted to, local city ordinances would not allow me, unless I spent a ton of money making everything EPA, and OSHA compliant.

Frankly, as tough as it is to turn a profit in the upholstery business, I think refinishing is even tougher.

[SteveA]

Mixed thoughts about not wanting the hassle - if Doyle wants to advance his reach - I support that.  Many things that I had to sub out I learned to do myself because I was tired of dealing with temperamental tradesmen that made me crawl.  Doyle keep with it - at the very least your knowledge will earn you respect when dealing with outside finishers.  They won't be able to talk in riddles -
SA

[baileyuph]

Kody and Dennis --

If you read the subject matter this thread is not about stripping vats and impacts/constraints on large polluting spraying equipment/activites.  It is about caning repairs and handling the matching requirements that come up.

Do your research on classic antiques using caning, they are very valuable, medalions centered in backs, roll edges caned, spiral forms, etc.  a lot more involved than pulling out cane and gluing in new.  There are consumers with valuable antiques that want quality.  

That type of work is not given away, not like some consumers who expect to get a 10 year old recliner redone - for less than a cheap new (they are out there who want upholstery cheap like anything else).

There is a science to anything, that level of understanding is the understanding of interest behind my post.   My objectives are to continue to gain technical understanding in all I do and do it better and faster.  That is where I have been rewarded the most.  Diversification has been a player in these objectives.  Everything in cutting and sewing does not pay well and going forward that dimension of the work will continue to face foreign competition.   Not biased - expect the same for some caning/repairs.   Repairs on most items face less foreign competition in many dimensions of of the work I do - everything from auto/furniture, to name a couple.  

There are losers and winners in all dimensions of work related to the items most of us work on, every type of cut and sew work will not get the bills paid.  Foreign competition is the upholsters biggest competitor, not the common business down the street.  It is how we do it that will determine a lot of things.


Doyle

[kodydog]

Steve and Doyle I agree with both of you. Never stop learning and trying to figure things out. Knowledge is powerful stuff.

There is one thing we all can agree on and that is when it comes to business everybody does it a little different. I was simply stating what works for me. Nothing else.

The guy I work with is what I would call a chemist. He can mix stains and blend finishes that are a perfect match to the naked eye. I wish I could get him to come on here but he's not into computers much. He's a wealth of knowledge.