It's all coming back to me now

[BigJohn]

         Just like in our government nothing is free, everything should stand on its own. If you want a sofa done it's one price, if you want a sofa and 6 pillows it's a corresponding higher price.

     A friend that was an estimator at a local lumber yard once was giving a customer a price on materials for a house The customer when asking for the quote stated that he was planning to build 10 houses, so keep that in mind while pricing it out. When given the price the customer was upset that he didn't feel he had been given a 10-house discount, my friend told him that if he bought 9 houses the 10th was free. He left and bought materials from another supplier, never paid for them and never finished the 1st house before the bank took it back! Just what would he have benefited by giving the customer a big discount based on what he claimed, dreamed, or boasted he was going to do?

[sofadoc]

There has been talk over on the business side about maximizing profits. All good advice. But all too often people, such as decorators will attempt to maximize their profit by squeezing every last dollar out of their customer, while at the same time  twisting the knife a little deeper on the suppliers, and vendors.
I don't know how many times a decorator, or antique dealer has said to me "If you could do it for less, I could send you a LOT of business".
Yeah, a lot of UNPROFITABLE business! If I wanted to work for minimum wage, I'd probably have to install one of those "Take a number" dispensers at my front door.
I certainly get what Darren is saying, too. Many decorators know how to coordinate colors. They know what is stylish, and pretty. But they don't always know what is practical. And they really don't want that to be their problem (It's YOUR problem).
I think it was Tapissier (Bruno) who resented the fact that, In France, he had to go through years of apprenticeship, and training in order to be certified as an upholsterer, while in America, the ONLY qualification to open an upholstery shop, is be able to pay rent. I kinda feel the same way about decorators sometimes. There are a lot of them with no formal degree in decorating.   

[bobbin]

There is a big difference between "designers" and decorators!  Designers are required to take classes, know specific requirements in things like bathrooms, kitchens, staircases, hallways, etc..  I've seen the course work and the exam was no fat lady's dream, either.  It's along the line of what's required of an architect, very specific.  A "decorator" can be anyone with a "good eye", no knowledge of architecture or safety regulations with respect to space is required.  I know some fabulous designers and some crummy ones.  And I know some decorators who have forgotten more about "design" than many "qualified" designers know.  So, there is a certified difference, but that doesn't make one easier to work for if you're a "sub." on a job!

I am presently trying to establish professional, working relationships with local designers.  It's pretty slow going, mostly because a lot of people in our trade work out of the "spare bedroom" and their low hourly rates make them stiff competition for a start up like me.  But I'm properly equipped, have a dedicated work space, and a ton of experience, too.  But it takes time to build a body of work and a reputation for quality results, esp. in a tough economy.   I am finding that I'm doing a lot of work that is basically a "bail out", saving the designer's ass because the cheaper place did a crummy job.  And I charge full boat for it, making it clear that the price includes the "PITA surcharge"; cleaning up other people's messes/mistakes carries a high cost.   "Repeat" business is picking up and there hasn't been a lot of grousing about pricing.  Who knows how long that will last?

I have taken pains to explain that estimates are just ... basically well educated guesses, based on years of work and experience, and a knowledge of what the basic materials cost to render the work as discussed.  I sympathize with you, Kody., because none of us have X-ray eyes and we simply cannot see inside an old piece to accurately determine precisely how many hours it will require.  I have taken to giving a "worst case scenario" and a "best case" estimate; this is particularly important in marine work where rotten wood and seized or corroded bolts are commonplace.  I always tell a customer that the wild card is what I cannot see and they must be prepared for that.  Take it or leave it.  But it's really, really hard to convey that to people in a way that assures them that you aren't just leaving the door open to "take advantage".  I struggle with it, frankly.  But have come to the determination that I'd rather not work for "cheap" just to get the job.  I can take an hour's worth of "hit", but more than that?  I'd rather work in my gardens, play with the dog, or do some project for my own home that has been put off for months/years. 

[gene]

"This is wonderful, Mr./Ms. Customer!!! If I take this money losing job from you today, you will promise me even MORE money losing jobs in the future? Awesome! Let's shake on it!!!"

Designers who want freebies want it from everyone.
-Since the carpet guy is laying the carpet in one room, he and his tools are already there, so just go ahead and re-stretch the carpet in that other room.
Since the painter is already painting that room, I'm sure you have white trim paint, so just go ahead and touch up all the trim in that room also.

I love it when the designer looks shocked, aghast, nay, be-stricken, when the worker wants to be paid for their work. "WELL, all the other carpet layers, painters, window treatment folks, upholsterers, proctologists, and home builders don't mind doing me a favor now and then. After all, I am giving you the job."

I have only refused to work with one person, and this was a big part of why I felt I needed to burn a bridge.

Kodydog, this is what my ESTIMATE says: I got this language from Stephen Winters' Estimate. I do think it is my job to educate my customers on this.

"All prices quoted are for labor only, unless otherwise stated. We will discuss with you first any additional charges due to unforeseen damage/repairs/supplies that may be necessary with furniture upholstery. All work is to be delivered or picked up at the time of completion, unless other terms have been mutually agreed upon."

Check out Stephen's web site. He has spent a lot of time on this forum sharing a lot of his knowledge with us. I first learned about Quickbooks from reading his site.

http://www.winterssewing.com/

gene

[sofadoc]

There is a big difference between "designers" and decorators!  Designers are required to take classes, know specific requirements in things like bathrooms, kitchens, staircases, hallways, etc.. 

I guess that's the difference. I'll bet that only a few of the decorators  I deal with could produce any document certifying that they've had any formal training. But I know several that throw that word "Designer" around loosely.

[RENE G]

 :'( :'( :'(
   No matter what business you are in there will always be ppl who want discounts based on promises of future work. In a past life and unrelated business I ran into that mentality daily. My usual response was that I was the best at what I did, however I would be prepared to entertain discounts; but only based on proven volume, at the end of a six month term or 1 year, then discounts would be carried back over a period of time based on continuing business. That could be in writing if they so chose. On the serious ones it worked great; on the chincers and lowballers it weeded them out quickly. Just my .02 cts.

Rene

[BigJohn]

Rene:
     I agree ten times over with what you've said, if they are for real about the volume they will do then it shouldn't bother them to wait until they have proven it to you.

[kodydog]

Here's another way of looking at it. When a designer try's to "squeeze" an extra dollar out of their subs aren't they shooting them self in the foot. As for me, next time I do work for them, Ill remember and add a little more to the estimate. Sure they might go some place else as in sofa docs case but like he said maybe it's best to pass on this type customer.