This is interesting. They covered the springs with duck cloth (sewn into pockets) before attaching them together.
The seat springs I'm hoping to replace the covering (one at a time - bottom, then top) and basically keep the spring assembly tied together.
http://gdurl.com/psiy
Almost looks like marshall units. Was there any dacron or foam on the arms ?
SA
yes the ib and arms were covered with 2" foam & a layer of cotton.
Looks like you can buy pre-made marshall units which is nice if I don't want to take the time to do so.
I use to get these springs from Mattresses Simons I believe. We would buy them from return or defective units. They came in handy for some jobs.
They are marshal units. some people use them when the customer doesn't want to pay for properly tied springs
I bought replacement marshall units. Now I'm wondering if I should have just used foam and hole saw.
grrr. so many questions.
My thought is you have the springs and the frame is set up for marshall units, why not use them? If you decide to use foam only do not despair. It is always good to have marshall units on hand. You will use them eventually.
I have reused marshall coils but the assumption is these coils need new covering (muslin cloth is often
the covering)?
Now, looking at the bottom cushion area, ties coils there?
What condition is the 2" foam covering the marshall coils?
Now that you have the upholstery off the tufted back, the geometry of the button placement can
be understood (horizontal and vertical placements as well as the tuft distance the buttons are pulled
to). Very important because of the button horizontal and vertical placement formula for buttons. The
button depth obviously plays a part in appearance of the final diamond tuft but fullness of tuft as
well. The appearance of the removed upholstery did suggest that the built up back padding needs
to be firmer. Button depth is as important as all the the other issues.
Looking at the upholstery on the backrest before removal, there appeared to be encouragement to make or increase the backrest padding firm(er). This issue will need to be addressed as you proceed
to get a nice looking tightly tufted back. Button depth can be too deep as well as not deep enough.
Hence, the focus on padding and firmness of it.
Have fun.
Doyle
When I begin to tie the springs, is there an easy way to make them the correct height?
And with re-using the tacks, I don't need to worry about them backing out, do I?
http://gdurl.com/Zu_8
__________
Edit
This spring tying stuff is hard. I noticed in many instructional videos that two tacks are used and the twine is wrapped in a figure 8. On this piece, the twine was tied on one tack only, with a knot I assume to be some sort of slip knot.
I actually think so far this is the hardest thing yet.
This is called a spring edge. You have to tie the main ties to make the coils the correct height then tie the front edge wire also. I have never reused nails so I can't say that is good or bad but there is not enough for the job. There will be two tacks next to each other then another on the side of each row of springs. This is on the front rail. You will notice all the ties are looped and not knotted on each spring. This is why the job failed. Use knots everywhere. Loops just slip around. YouTube can be good if you have a good person producing the video./ Look for a better one.
You can reuse the tacks but do not reuse the same holes. Most of your tacks will be badly bent, throw those away. You will need to buy a box of tax.
Spring tying is hard. That's why most upholsterers just say screw it and cover over it.
Explaining the steps and procedure to get a good outcome is difficult without being there. Like Paul said study several different videos on u-tube.
When tying springs keep in mind the goal is to end up with a flat surface. The hard part is getting those middle springs pulled down.
I find the edge wire to be a real nuisance when retying springs. Most upholsterers like to leave it on because once you take it off you have to figure out how to reattach it. I'm fortunate to have a Hartco crimp gun so I almost always remove it and reattach it half way through the job.
When tying springs with a spring edge not only do you have to make all the springs are the same height but make sure all of the front springs are even with the front edge of the front rail. If you don't you will have a big mess when you get ready to upholster the seat front.
Another thing with a spring edge is you want to make sure it is fairly stiff when finished. A soft spring edge is no good. It will feel spongy when you sit on it. It would be difficult to explain the steps to make a stiff spring edge here. Pay close attention to the utube video when they are explaining this method. If I get time I'll see if I can find a good video for you to watch.
Won't lie. Spring tying has got me disheartened.
I don't believe I'll make it to toe-tying, Kody.
I can't imagine learning to tie springs without watching someone who knew how many many times. And then being taught how to from them. It isn't easy but isn't that hard once you understand what is being done. It is hard on the hands. Be ready for sore fingers. I use to end up with masking tape of the blisters after springing a couple of sofas in a day.
You first want to remove all those old twines to get them out of the way. Take a picture of it now as the ties don't look like they are misplaced much. And remember tie knots anywhere you wrap around a spring or another twine.
Yes for sure learning how myself won't be easy.
I did leave all the old there for reference.
But I am dedicated to furniture upholstery. I remember how hard other things were, and now it's nothing. I did find it helped using scrap fabric to hold the edges down while I figure out the rest.
Quote from: 65Bufick on November 29, 2017, 12:19:14 pm
Yes for sure learning how myself won't be easy.
I did leave all the old there for reference.
But I am dedicated to furniture upholstery. I remember how to use the sizegenetics (http://www.treepower.org/) hard other things were, and now it's nothing. I did find it helped using scrap fabric to hold the edges down while I figure out the rest.
You'll get there, it just takes practice!
The edge wire is broken at the back and it kind of distorts the shape. I keep trying to fix it but it makes it worse. I could eliminate it or just remove the back but leave the front and sides.
Were the unions Doc posted a link for to repair the edge wire worth looking at ?
SA
I have seen plenty of furniture with the edge wire only on the sides and front. Just make sure you stuff out the back with plenty of cotton or dacron to make sure that back edge is smooth and not lumpy and to eliminate any gaps that may appear.
I had forgotten about stapling the twine. Instead of using nails to wrap the end of the twine, you hold the twine towards you, two staples, then towards the piece, two more staples. Then continue tying.
What is everyone's thought on that method?
You have to be very careful not to cut the twine with a staple or it will fail. Either right then or right after you deliver the piece. I use the staple gun for this once in a while when I don't think the wood can handle a 4 or a 6 oz tack. Or when I just can't get at the rail but can with a gun. I don't care for the practice actually.
Question
1. Am I better to run twine over the top of the springs to compress them to right height, and then tie them? I saw a video where a guy did this.
Then continue on and tie the springs to the already run twine.
I considered strap (bar) springs but find that they aren't available in this size.
The photo below shows what the piece looked like underneath. I am using webbing, so I can't really re-use those torsion bars and springs. Am I going to need to reinforce underneath the webbing? I don't know how I would do that.
http://gdurl.com/RcUh
Quote from: kodydog on December 01, 2017, 05:10:47 pm
I have seen plenty of furniture with the edge wire only on the sides and front. Just make sure you stuff out the back with plenty of cotton or dacron to make sure that back edge is smooth and not lumpy and to eliminate any gaps that may appear.
I retained the existing edge wire. It is quite close to the backrest, about 1/2"
The edge wire on the sides is around 1 1/4", including the right at the front where the spring edge meets the front of the armrest.
I was really careful trying to line up the spring edge with the front of the frame, so those two are plumb.
So far I think I've got the springs lined up and compressed close enough that when I continue on and tie the springs I can adjust so everything is nice and even.
Then I hope when I cover the springs in a good strong piece of fabric that it will all be one strong unit.
Quote from: 65Buick on December 11, 2017, 12:37:09 pm
Question
1. Am I better to run twine over the top of the springs to compress them to right height, and then tie them? I saw a video where a guy did this.
Then continue on and tie the springs to the already run twine.
If you are explaining tieing a twine up and down to compress the spring then No. Just tie them front to back, side to side and diag. The frame is a good one for just red line webbing. You won't need anything else as long as you put the webbing on tight enough. I always test a webbing job by dropping a tool like a pair of shears or my hammer on it. It should bounce nicely. Keeping the edge wire in the back is a good idea it gives shape to that area so you don't have to fill in with cotton to get rid of the missing areas between the springs. Make sure to use burlap or some other fabric that won't stretch out on top of the springs. Many left over fabrics will stretch and show later on. That is what burlap is for. It is also much easier to stitch through.
I considered strap (bar) springs but find that they aren't available in this size.
The photo below shows what the piece looked like underneath. I am using webbing, so I can't really re-use those torsion bars and springs. Am I going to need to reinforce underneath the webbing? I don't know how I would do that.
http://gdurl.com/RcUh
The springs at the front and around the edge are taller. So I am not really understanding how I get them compressed to the same level while tieing. That is why earlier I had used strips of fabric to compress the front springs so I am not trying to do that at the same time as tieing them.
This is what it looks like now:
http://gdurl.com/A9i1u
The front springs should be a little taller. When you get to the front row, drop down probably three rings pull the spring a little towards the back, and tie to that, then to the next lowest ring in the front of the front spring pull this tight so the back of the front spring is pretty close to even with the rest and nail it to the front rail. Bring this tie up to the edge wire and get the height (about 3/4" taller) and tie to the spring and edge wire. Then back to the front of the second row spring and pull it so the front edge is where you want it. Just proud of the front rail. Tie this and then down to the front rail and pull this so the back edge of the spring is just below to front and even with the rest. Then nail it down. This should give you even springs to the back edge of the front row of spring and the front edge just proud (taller by 1/2" - 3/4" of the rest. This gives you a good angle so your cushion won't ride forward. Pu the burlap on and edge roll. Not easy to explain in words. But read it till it makes sense.
I think I'm getting the hang of it.
If I understand correctly, the twine strengthens the coils as one unit. But, the twine may also be used to position the springs correctly.
So far it's looking good. The spring edge is hanging to far forward. I'm hoping that the twine pulled in different directions will help bring it back.
http://gdurl.com/RHZz
It looks like the third spring from the left is done correctly. This is the point you pull the row to the height you want the other springs. Then up to the edge wire and back to the front of the spring of the second row back loop it get knot ready and adjust the twine to pull the edge wire where you want it. Just a little in front of the rail. Tie this off and then back to the read of the front spring tied odd, and then down through the front spring to the rail around a tack and adjust to pull the rear of the front coil down. This will give you a lower rear section on the front coil not much but lower than the front of the front coil. All the other main ties are wrong sorry.
And yes the twines are what positions the coils. Nothing else. All coils travel up and down straight, as much as possible. The front row sometimes doesn't because of the rail. It is how you can tell if they are tied correctly as you go. You will see this in time.
Looking good - when your done if the springs aren't perfect don't worry you can make up flaws with the padding, foam, cotton etc. No crafts person will have perfect success the initial attempts when tying springs. If the edge wire is giving you headaches maybe it isn't 100 % necessary.
SA
Like Paul said you need to get the back of the front spring pulled down. This will make the tension on the front of the spring tighter and give you a nice tight spring edge. I was taught to use two pieces of spring twin for tying front to back. The first one is to get all those springs the same height and positioned correctly. The back spring all I tie is the front of the spring then tie the tops of middle springs. The front spring all I tie is the back of the spring. Then pull everything tight and nail off. The second piece of string I tie similar to what Paul said.
I see why people use zig zag springs.
LOL it's a lot easier isn't it. Zig-zags were invented with manufacturing production in mind.
Ziggers are OK and easy but you can't beat a hand tied coil spring base for comfort and support.
Do I fasten the front to back ties before anything else?
Progress!!
http://gdurl.com/X1L5
When I reach the springs at the back (or the front) is it necessary to tie the rung closest the nail? Like usually about 3 down.
Everything is lining up pretty well. It is still pulled ever so slightly to the right, but I'm hoping that I can manage that with the burlap and the edge roll.
Yes fasten the mail ties completely before moving to the cross ties. Then finish them off then the diagonals. You can tap the edge wire where it connects to each front spring the opposite way of the way you want the spring to move to even it out some. Not too much but it helps. Do each one
I've had these springs done but ordering the burlap caused a delay.
Not the greatest picture but looks like I need the spring edge to come down about 1/2"?
http://gdurl.com/QPdc
Burlap and supplies here tomorrow so I can finally begin upholstering.
The front edge looks like it is even with the rest of the springs. This should be slightly higher but you will be OK when you put an edge roll on. That will make it higher. Next spring up I have I will try to remember to take pics of the process so you can follow the twines. It looks pretty good 65. Nice first spring up.
Thanks Paul. I have a good idea of what I'm going to do in order to construct my seat decking.
Question I have is would it be a good idea to cut a piece of dense dacron to go directly over the springs before I do the burlap to avoid squeaks, etc? I then plan to go with 1/2" foam and cotton to build it up nicely.
BTW it would be cool to see a photo or two of what you're working on these days
Dense Dacron would be a waste under the burlap. It will probably just conform in and around the springs and breakdown in short order. Just do burlap and then whatever you use. Dense Dacron sounds good on top of the burlap. One thing you or others may not realize is if you have bonded Dacron and press a steamer on it it actually melts it down to a very dense consistency. A couple of layers of this becomes a good start over coil springs. Over the burlap. Try this and you will stop pressing on fabrics when there is bonded under it.
I have success putting cotton in between the springs before I cover them with burlap - cuts down on noise
SA
http://gdurl.com/o-3a
what's the best way to attach the burlap around the corner here?
Same goes for the decking/apron. I threw it away and I don't have a reference. except that I can see pleats on the decking from the picture.
I couldn't explain this if I tried.
yes. I figured it would not be easy to put into words. If I remember right, it was pleated at the front of the arm rest. So the entire front of the burlap was smooth. I'll figure that part out.
Trick is for the decking. I guess I'll just have to lay some fabric there and adjust it until it works.
Though, I can't quite remember if there were any fasteners for the 'apron' right at the front of the armrest, where the edge wire bends around it.
I never take enough pictures. I get so into the teardown that I don't stop and take a photo. comes back to bite me. Might have to set up a cam of me tearing down to get something to refer to.
Seeing you have a curved front section it would be easiest to have the seat made in two pieces. The top piece shaped to the front edge after the edge roll is on and possibly a little filling, and the front piece would be straight cut to sew onto the top piece all around the arm and back a couple inches past the arm rail. A sew in strip would be put in the top piece probably where back of the arm rail is and stop sewing it 2" in on each side. This piece of fabric would be 2.5" wide with the seam sewn down the center and straight across the top seat piece again stopping around 2" from the arm rail on each end. I unually leave several inches of this sew piece to tack on the side rail just to take out any slack and keep it smooth.
All understood.
Except for the sew in strip. Am I sewing this at the same time I sew the apron to the decking? And then I use this strip exclusively to sew to the burlap?
And BTW I hadn't used 'no-sag' burlap and I wouldn't order it from the same people again (because it took forever) but it is quite good quality. Tight weave and you definitely can't see light through it. I think they claimed it was 17oz.
No the sew strip is sewn about 3-4" back from the front edge (seam) It is done all by itself so all you see when complete is a seam running left to right about 3-4" from the front edge that underneath has the 2.5" piece of fabric sewn to this seam that you in turn sew to the burlap. It gives you the indentation you want.
If you bought no sag burlap it is overkill for the top. No sag is for the base in place of webbing. I use 10 oz. I believe. I can see through it a bit. It is fine for the top.
Please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I thought I was supposed to have a large seam allowance with the front facing and the decking, and use that seam to sew everything down.
And also, I realize with re-upholstery that certain things are easier and make more sense to do a little differently that original. What you are saying with have 2 pieces for the front facing and a seam at the edge. This makes sense to me. But would I need to worry that seam would be stressed and possibly fail down the road?
And finally, I couldn't figure this out but they used a grommet and a very small bolt snap attached to a little elastic that was fastened to the rail. I assume this is because the curve at the front edge is very difficult to fasten, and this made it a little easier.
I just want to make sure before I start cutting and sewing that I really know what I'm doing.
Two ways to do this front seat band.
1 - one piece with sewn pleats on the top area to makeup the curve. If you have the old pattern it would probably be close.
2 - two piece where the top piece is the shape of the front edge and face piece is a straight cut sewn with or without welts to the top piece.
You need to stitch the seat down to the burlap so the sew strip I mentioned b4 is used for that. 2 - 3" piece sewn to the top seat piece down the center line of the 2 - 3" sew strip.
I'm not sure why you think a larger seam allowance is needed in the seat seams. Also not sure what the grommet and elastic is for or where it was.
I think I see what you're saying.
My point about the large seam allowance for between the facing & decking is so you use that extra fabric to sew down to burlap.
Current situation: http://gdurl.com/EjGT
Pretty happy with the spring-up. Though I saw a custom piece on instagram, thing was flawless. You look at the 8-way tie and everything was perfectly even. It was amazing.
Looks pretty good 65,
One tip on the burlap. It need to be tight. And when you staple down the front staple it to the top of the rail and then turn it to double or triple the thickness. The more you put on the front of the rail the more it is possible to be bulky. When you pull the burlap front to back lift it and pull it towards you not down just across the top of the springs then lay it down the front and staple it. This will make it tight and not pull the edge wire down. At some point you will see a piece of burlap on a job that is stitched around the perimeter to tighten it without pulling the edge down.
Keep it up your doing great.
Man this thread's getting long.
Anyway, here we are:
http://gdurl.com/txYr
The burlap was originally just pulled down straight, I think to give it a nice flat front. I will have to stuff the front edge a bit to fill it in. Edge roll hog-ringed and sewn into place. Sturdy.
Played with some scrap. Seems to be easiest to do it the way it was done before. Pleat the facing and sew that to the decking.
Nice job.
I put this cotton on the seat. But I wondered, do I want to put it on the front facing like that? down below on the frame I also am not sure. I have some half inch foam and maybe a little dacron.
http://gdurl.com/RhgY
You should cover all the wood of the lower frame - 1/2 in. foam is good. How much higher can the seat be ? Maybe it's time to cover the cotton with muslin and see how well you formed the front deck rail.
SA
Are you putting a skirt on this? If so I kill the cotton at the skirt so the welt sits tight on the frame. No bulge under the skirt to make it puff out. If no skirt pad to the bottom edge of the frame and finish with a base welt.
It amazes me in upholstery how changing one small thing leads to 'well, now this won't look nice'
Anyway, my main concern here in the covered spring edge, the front. Having not yet actually had a spring edge, I'm unsure of how to pad that if necessary, without there being problems down the road. Normally I have a sprung seat, and on top of that foam, and the facing of the foam is all there needs to be attention to.
Here I have a burlap edge roll, and burlap spring edge. So what kind of material can be used that will have repeated stress and not fall apart of get matted up? Obviously I need something otherwise the fabric will probably see more wear.
Two things, you will be hand sewing the deck on. The deck will be machine sewed to the seat front. Using a large curved needle you will sew the seem salvage to the burlap, catching the springs as you go along. You need a break in the cotton where you will be sewing in order to get that seem pulled down as close to the burlap as possible.
The cotton on the front of the seat needs to be smooth. This would be a good time to rip the cotton about 4" back from the front edge and replace it with a nice smooth piece of cotton. This will also give you that break in the cotton to sew the deck down to the burlap.
Another idea would be to add another layer of cotton to raise the top of the seat front about an inch higher than the deck. The seat front needs to be higher than the deck to help keep the cushions from sliding forward when sitting on them. And at the same time a fresh layer of cotton will cover the lumps on the front of the seat. And if you are not adding a skirt you can place this smooth piece of cotton all the way to the bottom of the frame.
This is where your hands come into play 65. You are going to rely on feel more than anything. Your hands can tell you many things by feeling in this trade. The filling you have on the front looks like it might be too much. Hard to tell by looking but think of it this way. You sprung it up new burlap so you have a new seat, a blank canvas, so to speak. You want to fill the top area back to the stitch line and up just over the edge roll with the old cotton making it as smooth as possible. Then when this feels good add another full piece of cotton over the whole front section down to where the skirt will be or all the way to the bottom without a skirt. As for the the deck this really should be done first. This is the area behind the stitch seam and back to the back. The front section has to be a bit higher like Kody said. I lay a yardstick on edge on the deck and front seat and make sure there is at an angle making the front taller. Feel it all, all the time with your hands. Get them use to being your eyes for filling purposes. You will eventually be able to feel a staple under layers of cotton. Probably a slight exaggeration there but the point is made.
The good news is that I have the front added higher, it's flat, and looks good.
The bad is that I've screwed up the facing twice trying to pleat the front (sewed to deck). I just cannot figure put how to wrap the front spring edge and get it tucked away all nicely. Plus, if I had kept anything this would be the part. But no, I tossed it
So next I am going to cut two sections, the top & the front and then sew together. That wy when I get to the edge it won't be a problem
Extremely frustrating as I feel I should be well into the IB at this point, the main part of the piece, and the main learning.
That should work
It worked. Just need to sew the decking back on and then I'll put up a photo.
I figured if anything it will be good practice for when I get to sewing the cushion cover. Which will be tricky but I do want it to be as precise as possible.