Brutal customer. All about price. Lazy about looking at suggested fabrics (because he has no clue how much they cost since it's from a wholesale house!) and "pushing the envelope" with respect to time and ordering nice samples for him to look over.
I have been more than patient and finally sent a reply e-mail that was terse and "to the point". And still I feel uncomfortable! How do you guys deal with this sort of thing? When do you "blow them off" and how do you do it POLITELY?
Make appointments with them and make sure your not there when they come by LOL. Hey after all they wasted your time.
I've never been able to do what you ask. I am either very patient or I get stupid so I stay patient. I feel for ya.
If they're brutal micro managers trying to come in under budget - I show disinterest in the work - that either gets them to commit or gets them to leave. Otherwise if they are just quirky or undecided - I give them all the time they need. Those folks become your friend and loyal customer.
SA
Quote from: bobbin on January 18, 2014, 12:04:11 pm
Lazy about looking at suggested fabrics (because he has no clue how much they cost since it's from a wholesale house!)
Dealing with time killing customers is a PITA but comes with owning your own business. They will show up from time to time. When it gets to the point of pulling hair out of your head its time stop paying so much attention to them or just flat out ignore them. The do-it -yourselfers who think nothing of taking two hours of your time asking questions are a good example. I often send these people to this forum but have never seen one show up.
The one thing I don't understand about your scenario is why are the wholesale house fabrics not priced?
Quote from: kodydog on January 18, 2014, 04:53:32 pm
The one thing I don't understand about your scenario is why are the wholesale house fabrics not priced?
Some wholesale websites do not list prices unless an authorized retail account holder (such as me) logs in to view them. I wish they were ALL that way.
So Bobbin is ordering samples to show her customer but can't give him a price? I still don't understand.
I think what she means is that the tire-kicker wants to know her margin on the samples she's showing. He doesn't know what her cost is, so can't (or won't) decide. Some people want to know if they're paying you what they consider to be an unfair profit.
I don't encounter many of these types in marine work, but I just inch away from the time-burning activities they seem to cause. I give them the quote, sometimes several quotes, based on requirements and leave it to them. Some never return, but some just have a difficult time making a decision because of the $$ involved.
June
So not only is he eating up precious time but is trying to kill her profit also. Time to dump the Bozo.
Quote from: JuneC on January 19, 2014, 07:32:23 am
I think what she means is that the tire-kicker wants to know her margin on the samples she's showing. He doesn't know what her cost is, so can't (or won't) decide. Some people want to know if they're paying you what they consider to be an unfair profit.
Kinda like the "cat & mouse" game played at a jewelry store. You can't decide because the prices are on that microscopic itty-bitty tag underneath the box. ;)
There is a certain element of mystery involved with our type of work. The customer has no concept of what the job
should cost. So they want all the facts and figures before them so
THEY can decide what your profit should be.
Most people would be shocked to learn just how little a pair of glasses costs to make. Yet they pay the man hundreds of dollars for a few dollars worth of lens and plastic frame. Why didn't they insist on seeing his wholesale cost?
Yes, what June and Sofa. said. I have had great luck with Douglass Fabrics and their site does not show prices without a customer number. Their sample cards are pretty standard fare, with tiny "samples" that're pretty useless but they've been very nice about sending requested samples. I grommet the corners and have started my own "binder". I just sold a very nice job with their fabrics (customer was the opposite of the tire kicker... the sort of customer Steve A. described, actually).
The customer in question is all about price, "what are you going to do for me?" (increase the bid every time I'm asked that question, that's what I'm going to do for you, buddy). I have done everything I've said I'd do but he never seemed quite satisfied and always wanted "more". We've been playing this game since early October. I've put in considerable time to locate and suggest appropriate samples, quantify the foam options, and my labor. But he never "had time" to look at the on-line suggestions (give me a break), for precisely the reason June offered, I suspect. I finally said there was no point in making an appointment with no samples of reasonable size to view but if he wished he was free to purchase any fabric that suited him from any source. I'd be happy to work with it, though I'd assume no liability/responsibility for its relative suitability. I think that might have "gotten his attention" and sent a strong message that we need to "get to the dance floor" or I'll be looking for a new partner!
I have a pretty long rope when it comes to this sort of thing because I understand how hard it can be for some people to picture how something is going to look when it's finished. And I agree with Steve that an investment in time and thoughtful discussion can win people over and forge a relationship. I also understand "sticker shock" with respect to fabric. A lot of people don't understand how expensive nice quality fabric is, esp. when you move into the realm of marine and hospitality upholstery. I make time to discuss this with them and point out the relative benefits of the fabrics I can offer. That said, I did a "spot test" on some Crypton treated fabric from Douglass. I "stained" it with red wine, sunscreen, and oil from canned tuna fish. I treated it as directed and every one of the stains came out. I am impressed, you guys!
Marketing is a challenge, especially when you have work on the bench and a tire kicker on the scene.
How to deal, well being nice and letting them know if there are more questions and effort will be made to gather answers while you also let them know that work has to keep going out. Best to not be rude.
Doyle
I'll bet he's the type of guy who goes to a nice restaurant and orders a $3.00 side salad and a glass of water and then keeps asking for refills on the free bread. And stays at the table for 90 minutes.
He's the kind of person who seems to think that everyone is out to gouge him and charge him too much. I don't really don't like the mindset and I particularly dislike the constant "quizzing" about price; he has the estimate in front of him... just needs to look at it. Nice enough guy, but he spends too much time "researching" and not enough time trusting that skilled tradesmen know how much it costs to deliver a nice product. (seems like a waste of energy to me). (made me laugh, Jojo).
This sounds like a good argument to give just an overall price and not break down labor, individual materials cost, etc. What's this $12 for misc. material cost? And this $4 for decorative tacks?
Quote from: bobbin on January 21, 2014, 12:30:26 pm
He's the kind of person who seems to think that everyone is out to gouge him and charge him too much. I don't really don't like the mindset and I particularly dislike the constant "quizzing" about price; he has the estimate in front of him... just needs to look at it. Nice enough guy, but he spends too much time "researching" and not enough time trusting that skilled tradesmen know how much it costs to deliver a nice product. (seems like a waste of energy to me). (made me laugh, Jojo).
Bottom line would be a better marketing strategy, some of these tire kickers might still kick.
Doyle
I agree. I never give the customer too much to think about. They start scrutinizing every last little itemization.
Then they start making less expensive substitutions. And every time they make a change, they expect the price to go down a little. Pretty soon.......you're writing them a check.
We talked about this in a similar topic recently. If a customer haggles with a tradesman over price, how do they know that tradesman isn't just going to cut back on materials and labor in order to meet their price demand?
Nothing dishonest or immoral about it. If I have to reduce my price, I'm going to use less supplies, or a lower grade of supplies to offset my loss.
That's why I neither haggle, nor be haggled.
Price for work: $820
Price for cut-rate job, using lesser quality materials, less craftsmanship, re-used components instead of new: $560 (no warranty on workmanship or materials)
Quote from: sofadoc on January 22, 2014, 06:12:22 am
I agree. I never give the customer too much to think about. They start scrutinizing every last little itemization.
Then they start making less expensive substitutions. And every time they make a change, they expect the price to go down a little. Pretty soon.......you're writing them a check.
We talked about this in a similar topic recently. If a customer haggles with a tradesman over price, how do they know that tradesman isn't just going to cut back on materials and labor in order to meet their price demand?
Nothing dishonest or immoral about it. If I have to reduce my price, I'm going to use less supplies, or a lower grade of supplies to offset my loss.
That's why I neither haggle, nor be haggled.
"Can't you do any better on the foam? seems like a lot to me".
"I've quoted you prices for two suitable, and nice quality foams. If you wish to supply your own foam I will be happy to use that".
"I've looked at Sunbrella upholstery fabric for under $30/yd. on line".
"Are you certain it was Glen Raven Mills Sunbrella or was it described as acrylic "sunbrella"? If you would like to purchase it I will use it but there will be no guarantee on the relative quality/suitability of any materials you opt to provide".
This doesn't happen very often, mercifully. And it has gotten me thinking about how to deal with people who are basically nervous about not knowing everything about the item or service they're about to purchase. More specifically, how to inform and present my proposal after we've had an opportunity to discuss the job fully. It really is a marketing issue, too; how do I wish to be perceived? "will do any work" or provides a full, skilled service by appointment. Good things to ponder for future ease!
Wow, bobbin, I gotta say, you are way more patient than I would have been. Seems like if you ever do get past the haggling stage this job will probably come back and bite you on the ass.
Jojo's correct, I'm afraid. This same person would nit-pick the finished work to pieces and you'd end up losing money and time trying to make him happy.
June
JoJo is spot on. I had a customer like this before. He complained during the first meeting about price, bitched during the job before it was even done and then complained afterwards. Some people will bitch if you serve them cold ice cream.
I personally will not deal with people like that and have gotten very good at knowing who is going to be a PITA and who wont just by their attitude. If I suspect they are going to be a major PITA i kick them down the road by sending them to someone else. " Sorry, I am to busy at this time ".
2 years ago I had the customer from hell. He was a retired engineer and researched his project to the hilt online. He questioned everything I was going to do and the materials I use and then bitched afterwards. He even came on to this forum and snooped around at what I was posting. All of my profit was chewed up by the extra time it took to deal with him. Screw that. I will starve before I deal with another customer like him.
Shortly after that guy I made a new policy - If they appear to be a PITA give them Paul or Mikes phone number and kick them down the road........LOL......
Chris
You may rest assured I'll give you the full post mortem when/if it comes to pass. Thanks for the chuckles, you guys.
There are shoppers and buyers, this one smells like a mere shopper for sure. For readers of this marketing experience, how many think this is a buyer?
I don't this one is a buyer, he politely has to be dismissed.
Then, should he come crawling back, the answer will be "the season of this work has advanced, the only thing I can commit to is - call you if we see light".
Doyle
Remember the high school axiom "Study long.....study wrong"?
It's been my experience that when a customer anguishes too long over making their upholstery choices, they are inevitably going to regret them.
Like Chris, I've grown quite adept at spotting a PITA customer. I'll make up any BS excuse necessary to get rid of them. I don't want them to go away mad.....I just want them to go away.
I've had a couple over the years that particularly stuck in my craw. They waited until I finished the job, delivered it to their home, sat it down in their living room, and held my hand out to get paid before they announced that they had done some research, and now want to renegotiate our previously agreed upon price.
There are mid-sized and large design firms that cater to this type of customer. They also factor all that wasted "kiss-ass" time into their estimate.
I really sympathize with Bobbin. It is tough when you hang out your own shingle and start fresh with this type of business. You have to grit your teeth, smile, be polite and kiss ass.
The day will come Bobbin when your going to busy, booked solid and when a jackwagon like this guy walks in you can afford to tell him to go pound sand.
This is why I stay out of the towables and gas coach market. They are huge time wasters for me and will try and nickle and dime you to death.I still shake my head whenever I think about my situation and customer base. I have guys with million dollar coaches call, place their order, pay their bills promptly and then piss off never to be heard from again. Then some guy with a beat up motorhome
that is worth $ 20 K will drive you insane and make unreasonable demands.
Hang in there Bobbin. You may have to kiss a few toads now but the day will come you will be able to tell them to screw off. :)
Chris
As I mentioned, I've been quite cool and refused to "step and fetch it" when he finally replied to my inquiries about my estimate. I had suggested samples and he never got around to looking at them. Not my problem. No looky, no requests, no "touchy-feely" samples. Simple.
My last e-mail stated emphatically that I didn't "do" last minute work. I also said that we need to meet in my shop so he could sit on foam samples, select the sort of cushion style he wanted (after looking at my samples), look at my Sunbrella books, look at the requested samples from my supplier, and discuss their relative merit with respect to his expectations. He replied within a day with his sample requests. The estimate I provided is now nearly 4 mos. old and I see clearly that I'll have to check the prices... .
I am also fully prepared for "the talk". The talk that clearly explains my business philosophy and what his money will buy. And how looking only at the "bottom line" can result in a 2 dimensional yacht interior.
Stay tuned.
Update!
I sold the job. I put a good deal of thought into how to present my proposal and how to "woo" someone who was nervous about spending a lot of money for something he didn't really know how to do for himself. Our meeting was great; lots of time for questions and lots of time for weighing the relative merit of this fabric against that fabric. I made sure I had answers for the questions I was certain would be asked and I wasn't afraid to say, "I don't know, but I will find out and let you know" to others (most of which he thought were not that important). We went over the numbers and I told him I'd alert him if there were any major changes in price.
It was tough sleddin' for bit, but I'm glad I stuck with it. It was interesting to watch the change in attitude, too. Skepticism and suspicion have been replaced with confidence and I'm looking forward to the job.
Good for you. Bobbin
Woot! Congratulations!
June
Then, there are those who fall in "love". ;)
You had what it took to get that customer!
Congrats!
Doyle