I joined because this is the best discussion board that I have found and is extremely informative. At this point and time I am just a hobbyist (Last 3 or 4 years) but hope to make a part time fun business out of it when I retire from my full time job in 3 years. FYI- My full time job has nothing to do with upholstery or sewing. I purchased a portable Thompson PW301with the standard little motor that it comes with for my beginners machine and have used it for many Sunbrella and Vinyl related projects. The machine was marginal to say the least on some of the Sunbrella projects as I was going through up to 5 or 6 layers at times. I am also looking to do some Ultraleather projects as well in the future. I am ready to move up to a better machine. I am planning on selling the Thompson and I want the next machine that I purchase to be my last. I am considering the Juki 1541S with the Artisan servo motor but also like the Pfaff 1245. The Juki costs quite a bit less than the Pfaff which makes it even more attractive. My question is this---Knowing the type of materials that I work with (Sunbrella, Vinyl, Ultraleather, etc) are these 2 machines to heavy duty for what they will be used for? I know that a lot of you all sew on heavy leather which I do not plan on doing (But who knows). Would really appreciate machine recommendations from you pros out there if you don't mind. I did read the newbee section for machine recommendations but it seemed to be based around really heavy materials. Like I said, I want this to be the last machine I buy. Thanks
Greg
I own a brand new Juki 1541 and I've recently begun doing slipcover work with it. I have had no trouble whatsoever threading and adjusting it to run a size 16-18 needle and 69 weight thread. It handles fabrics that are lighter/more delicate than the Sunbrellas you're using with ease and without mangling them. It's a very, very nice machine.
I've also used it to mend multiple layers on horse blankets and thickly reinforced areas of the deck canopy I made for our home. The key to it is to pay attention to needle size, thread size, stitch length, and be willing to take your time adjusting it for the work you expect it to do.
I worked on a Pfaff 1245 for a few years. It was perfectly serviceable and reliable, though I never thought it was any great shakes. I was also familiar with the Pfaff 545 at that time. I prefer the Juki, hands down.
Both are wonderful machines. Personally, I don't see where the Pfaff is worth $500-$600 more than the Juki. I've sewed on both. To me, the Juki is a little more versatile when going from thick to thin fabrics.
And since Pfaff parts typically cost more, I prefer Juki also.
But there ARE a lot of Pfaff Pfans out there. :D
I started out with a Thompson mini walker and your right, it is marginal when getting into heavy fabrics. :) I about wore that poor thing out sewing some of the stuff I was working with.
I finally broke down and ordered a new machine from Bob Kovar who is a member of this forum and owns Toledo Sewing Machine Co.
I contacted him and we talked about a new machine. Bob has 40 years experience in the business and has a very large clientele so he has a vast amount of experience working with upholsterers. I told him the fabrics I would be sewing and the work I do and he suggested the Consew 206rb5 or the Chandler 406rb. I selected the Chandler ( it was cheaper then the Consew ) and paid the extra money for a servo motor. That was probably the smartest thing I did as this servo motor is awesome. The Chandler has sewn everything I have thrown at it. If I can get it under the foot it will sew it. :)
When I placed my order with Bob he took the machine out of the box, set it up, adjusted it and then boxed it back up and shipped it to me. I assembled the table and it sewed perfectly right out of the box.
My suggestion is to contact a reputable dealer like Bob and discuss your work with him. He can help guide you and make a good selection on a machine. Bob's number is 419-380-8540. He is a very honest person, very patient and extremely helpful.
Best of luck with your machine purchase.
Chris
chris do they have a website?i couldnt google one
Quote from: bobbin on February 22, 2011, 02:48:34 pm
I worked on a Pfaff 1245 for a few years. It was perfectly serviceable and reliable, though I never thought it was any great shakes. I was also familiar with the Pfaff 545 at that time. I prefer the Juki, hands down.
Now this is a historic moment; This may be the very first time, in writing, that I have seen someone with first hand experience put a Juki in front of a Pfaff! You better be in the witness protection program, or carry a big stick, as I feel the Pfaff police are going to be out in full force, and looking for
you!
Quote from: Gregg @ Keystone Sewing on February 22, 2011, 06:48:56 pm
Now this is a historic moment; This may be the very first time, in writing, that I have seen someone with first hand experience put a Juki in front of a Pfaff!
Hey, I have a competitor in town who bought a new Pfaff 1245 about a year ago.
He came over to my shop and sewed on my Juki LU 1508. He likes mine better.
He said that he Pfeels Pfooled by the Pfaff Pfanatics! :D
I really appreciate all of the comments and recommendations so far. Not looking to start any machine bashing (Pfaff vs Juki) because from the all of the research that I have done they both are awesome machines. My first choice actually was the Pfaff 1245 until I started researching the Juki 1541S. Now I have the Chandler and Consew thrown into the mix which now further complicates my choices. I hope that I continue to get more responses. I do question what the additional cost for the Pfaff will provide me over the Juki.
Thanks for your responses
Interesting, I only have the experience of the machines I own, getting a test drive over here is virtually impossible, no matter how much you are paying :'( My first industrial was a pfaff 545 by default, it was the only secondhand machine up for sale at the time ::) I now have a seiko STH-8BLD-1 because it was being sold as part of a liquidation sale.
I think I would prefer the seiko over the pfaff, if I ever get it set up right. :-X
Would love to try a Juki sometime ::)
I'm glad Chris pointed out the manifest delight of servo motors. My two Jukis both have servo motors and I'm sold on them, too. They are wonderfully quiet and very energy efficient. They do allow very precise machine control, although after the amount of time I've been sewing I've never had any trouble controlling a machine set up with a clutch motor. But the servos are fabulous! and well worth purchasing.
In fact, I'm so taken with them that I plan to convert my overlock machine and my blindstitch machine to servo motors as funds become available. If for no other reason than "sound-proofing" and energy efficiency.
As for Jukis... I remember when their offering in the "full function" market was a total dog. There was one in the shop I worked for and we all hated it... the tack and trim was slow and clunky. At that time Mitsubishi and Brother were leading the charge in full function machines. Juki evidently sat up and took notice and went back to the drawing board... the results of that honest reflection are second to none, IMO. They're fabulous machines that perform flawlessly day in/day out. And if you take good care of them they will run forever.
If anyone is thinking about getting a servo, you should check out the gear reduction servo. We switched over to one about a year ago. It will sew through makrolon with ease.
Quote from: stew-cheryl on February 23, 2011, 04:54:57 am
If anyone is thinking about getting a servo, you should check out the gear reduction servo. We switched over to one about a year ago. It will sew through makrolon with ease.
Now that's good to know. Hey Greg, do you have those? I really need to replace my two motors and one of my tabletops. Actually I'd like to replace all three, but I think I'll put the best of my clutch motors on the less-used double needle.
June
Quote from: stew-cheryl on February 23, 2011, 04:54:57 am
If anyone is thinking about getting a servo, you should check out the gear reduction servo. We switched over to one about a year ago. It will sew through makrolon with ease.
What is brand/model you speak of? Sewing through Mackrolon is no small feat, on any machine. I'm always on the hunt, trying to stay ahead of the curve for my customers. About two years ago, we had a geared servo motor that sounded promising, but when tested had less low end torque and speed control than what we were already selling at that time. This does not mean that things have not changed. This would not be the 1st nor last time a customer alerted me to a new product that shows a lot of promise.
Quote from: JuneC on February 23, 2011, 05:59:06 am
Quote from: stew-cheryl on February 23, 2011, 04:54:57 am
If anyone is thinking about getting a servo, you should check out the gear reduction servo. We switched over to one about a year ago. It will sew through makrolon with ease.
Now that's good to know. Hey Greg, do you have those? I really need to replace my two motors and one of my tabletops. Actually I'd like to replace all three, but I think I'll put the best of my clutch motors on the less-used double needle.
June
Email sent
Quote from: GMP on February 22, 2011, 07:20:27 pm
I do question what the additional cost for the Pfaff will provide me over the Juki.
With the Pfaff you do get the Pfaff Club membership card, and the super secret decoder ring, but don't tell the Juki owners. 8)
Sewing machines are like motor oil....everyone has their brand.
Oh and Bobbin we need your ring back....LOL
Loren
We had an Eagle tn400A servo, it had no power, you had to punch the material by hand, and then start sewing, the new gear reduction motor is a SEWPRO 500GR 300 watt 1500 rpm. When I installed it, the pulley was smaller, so it would run out of adjustment, so I switched pulleys from the old servo motor. The gear reduction has a lot more control, without runaways.
On that there Eagle motor...there is a single Phillips head screw, with a cover, halfway between both of the brushes.
If you get a pencil eraser on a pencil, you can put the eraser inside to clean the commutator that has built up carbon by running the motor while brusing the eraser over the commutator. I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but this is one of them that I have done that worked. You may want to replace the brushes, but this may not be necessary, I would have to see it.
I know who sells the Sewpro line and really like the guy personally, but a few years back that motor didn't match up with what we were selling at the time. It's quite possible improvements have been made and it's now a great motor, I have no idea but what I'm reading here. Motor Mfgs. are consistently making unannounced changes, or changes at the sellers recommendations.
The eagle never really had the power like the sewpro, if I set the needle right on the makrolon and start it will punch through, with the eagle I would punch through by hand and then start, I would have to keep the speed up or it would stop. Makrolon is tough stuff.
Quote from: stew-cheryl on February 23, 2011, 04:55:47 pm
The eagle never really had the power like the sewpro, if I set the needle right on the makrolon and start it will punch through, with the eagle I would punch through by hand and then start, I would have to keep the speed up or it would stop. Makrolon is tough stuff.
Intresting. I'll have to look into this motor again. I'm always looking for improved products for my customers.
Thanks for all of your responses. I have it narrowed down between 2 machines and would like a little more feedback from some of you. The 2 machines that are in the running are the Juki 1541S and the Chandler CM406RB-1. One of my main concerns for any machine was its ability to be able to sew relatively lite material much as 2 layers of Sunbrella and of course 6 or more layers of Sunbrella along with vinyl and Ultraleather type materials. Bobbin is using the Juki for lighter material than Sunbrella per the earlier post. Thats great because that was one of my concerns. The Chandler was recommended by a reputable dealer. I do not see many comments on any website (Including this one) regarding Chandler satisfaction other than what Mojo stated in an earlier post. As Mojo stated, I can get the Chandler on an upgraded stand with Servo along with some extras for about $400 less than the Juki. So here is what I would like some feedback on if I spend the extra money for the Juki:
Why will I be happier with the Juki?
What will the Juki provide me that the Chandler won't?
Will the Chandler handle lighter material as easily as the Juki?
Which would be more trouble free?
Which is easier to get parts for if and when it does break?
And anything else that you would like to add would be appreciated.
Most of all I don't want to regret my purchase, I am willing to spend the extra money on the Juki, but at the same time don't want to just throw away $400 either if it is not going to gain me anything.
Closer to getting my new machine now. Yahoo
Thanks for all the help regarding my purchase
Greg
Greg,
I sell, setup, and stock both models, and both are a good value, and both are reliable machines when setup properly, and used and operated properly as well.
After talking with Bob, I could not justify the extra money for the Juki. I couldn't even justify the extra money for a Consew. :)
Thankfully when I was dealing with Bob he didn't try to up-sell me to a more expensive machine and was honest and told me the Chandler would do everything I needed it to do reliably and with quality results. Actually he down selled me once he knew what my budget was and what the majority of my work consisted of. He felt the Chandler would be a great machine for me and he was right. I have yet to find anything it wouldn't sew. On a personal note, if Bob did try and up-sell me I would have walked away from the deal and him. I hate any type of dealer ( car, sewing machine, boat or whatever ) who tries to sell you something more expensive because he has a larger margin with that particular product. :)
I have sewed some light material and had no problems. Obviously I have never tried to sew shear curtains but I have sewn some very light fabrics without any problems. :)
Whatever machine you buy I strongly urge you to spend the extra money and get a servo motor. They are simply awesome.
I went with the Chandler because of 1.) the ease of finding parts ( not to mention them being cheaper then others ) 2.) It was cheaper then the Consew 3.) By spending less I was able to afford to upgrade to a servo motor 4.) It had a good reputation for quality.
The Chandler is not a high dollar Adler or Pfaff but it does a great job. I think that if you ask any honest dealer they will tell you the Chandler or the Consew will do everything a Juki, Pfaff or Adler will do. I know of no magical potions contained inside the higher dollar machines.
I think sewing machines are like cars. Everyone has a preference, be it Chevy, Ford or Chrysler. You buy what your comfortable with.
JMHO, and best of luck with your final decision and purchase. :)
Chris
Mojo,
Some nice stuff in there, and I like the car comparisons.
If I may chime in with my two cents;
If you've been driving a Mercedes for 15 years, you may not particular like a Honda. Nothing wrong with a Honda, but you probably won't like the way it drives, or feels in this case. For some, the Honda would be downgrade. Sewing machines are no different, and when you can test a variety of machines, same motor, side by side, your are likely to like one more than the other. Now, based on price and value as perceived by the customer, one may be swayed one way or the other. But, for the most part, if money were no object, I can tell you what machines people would want over others, for sure.
In addition to that, a Mercedes may cost say $80,000, and a Chevy, $35,000 for a comparison. It would be incorrect to think that the person selling the Mercedes has a higher profit margin based off off the higher sticker price the buyer pays. Maybe the Mercedes dealer paid $78,000, and the Chevy guy $30,000 to have that vehicle on thier lot. Again, sewing machines are no different, and often the lower ticket item is overall more profitable.
There is an old saying common to horsemen, "there never was a good hoss in a bad color". The point being that selecting a horse because you like the color may well mean that you'll pass over the best animal because you're only looking at one characteristic or you have one specific breed in mind. Shelter dog or purebred? What do you want the horse to do, what do you want from the dog?
I think that holds true for machinery, as well. And Mojo, I think you summed it up very well. Once you have a set a budget for the purchase of a machine and done your "homework" you may well find that the lower priced machine will do everything you want it to (probably more) and you will have "extra" money to spend on time saving attachments/presser feet, etc.. I think this is a conservative approach and it's practicality shouldn't be underestimated. The most expensive sewing machine in the world is no substitute for the hours of experience required to attain a level of mastery in our trade(s).
I always set a budget when it's time to replace an automobile. And I always buy a quality used vehicle, one that is common enough that parts won't break the bank, and it will be relatively easy to fix. I take good care of it and know that I'll be able to pay for a lot of fuel with the money saved on loan interest, registration fees, and insurance payments. What matters most to me is affordable, reliable transportation.
I mow my grass with a $100 Murray from Wally World. My neighbor has a $2000 Toro. Both lawns look the same when mowed. And his Toro goes into the shop at least once a season (and the shop bills ain't cheap,either). My Murray has never gone to the shop in 6 years.
So who's right, and who's wrong? Neither. It's all about what YOU want.
You guys are awesome but killing me at the same time. It appears that the majority believe that the Chandler is in fact the right choice for what I will be using it for. But then again Greg's comments are making me think twice about my choice. Not knocking his comments because that is the type of feedback that I am looking for. Correct me if I am wrong Greg but it seems to me that you believe that the Juki would be the better choice. Like I said in earlier posts, I do not want to regret my purchase. I have not seen any comments on a few of my questions such as what will the Juki provide me that the Chandler won't?, Why would I be happier with the Juki, etc. I believe the Chandler will do everything that I will be using it for but at the same time would still like answers to the above questions.
At this point I think my choice is Chandler but will wait for some return posts. Thanks to all of you.
Greg---if you rather not post the answers to these questions on this post please provide me with a number that I can call you on to discuss.
Thanks to all,
Greg
Greg: After going back and reading all the responses, I can see where you would feel that we've been a little vague.
I can only give my answer from a furniture point of view. JUKI!!!
You said you'd be doing Sunbrella, vinyl, and leather "Projects". Can you be more specific?
To be more specific:
Patio furniture cushions
Boat cushions
Canopy covers
At this time mostly Sunbrella, Vinyl and hope to work into Ultraleather
I guess the main question is this: Why should I get a Juki rather than a Chandler?
Is it easier to use?
Is it better with lighter materials?
Is it quieter?
Does it stitch better?
What will it do better than a Chandler?
Greg
Quote from: GMP on February 27, 2011, 03:00:19 pm
Greg---if you rather not post the answers to these questions on this post please provide me with a number that I can call you on to discuss.
[Nail hitting being hit on the head by a hammer]
Here are my best answers, but I have to be measured with what I type here. It's next to impossible for me to do comparisons with out somebody's personal feelings getting hurt. Everybody likes to think what they have is the best, myself included.
Here is the list, and but I'll tell you that what you asked is not the criteria I would use to separate the two;
Why will I be happier with the Juki? I don't own a crystal ball. Work with me a bit here, would ya! :P
What will the Juki provide me that the Chandler won't? Again, I have to be measured here, but one thing I can tell you is that the Juki has a box type feed mechanism. Chandler has an oval, or elliptical feed mechanism. I have had reports from experienced sewers who also seem to be critical of their own work that they really like the way the machine lays down a stitch.
Will the Chandler handle lighter material as easily as the Juki? Same
Which would be more trouble free? Both are very reliable machines when setup properly from the dealer out of the box.
Which is easier to get parts for if and when it does break? Parts availability is excellent for both. All common wear items are going to be available for same day shipment.
I hope this helps your decision.
I just bought my first machine last year. The only industrial machine I had ever used was my uncles 563 juki. I bought a Consew 255b. There is a difference in the "feel" of the two machines. I really like my consew it is a tough reliable machine , but the Juki seems smoother. My point is if you have an oppornunity to try different machines it may make it easier to decide what you like, then compare features.
Quote from: Gregg @ Keystone Sewing on February 27, 2011, 03:44:37 pm
It's next to impossible for me to do comparisons with out somebody's personal feelings getting hurt. Everybody likes to think what they have is the best, myself included.
Greg: Heck, your not going to hurt my feelings. I KNOW my Chandler is not the best machine out there. That is a fact. I am a realist and knew when I bought it I was buying a model that wasn't in the same class as the big boys. :)
With that said and if money was no object, I would have bought something else, probably a Pfaff or Adler. I think those two are awesome machines and the best money can buy.
The Chandler was my purchase choice because of my budget, need for a reliable machine that could sew anything and one I could buy replacement parts or attachments for from many different sources.
This machine analogy reminds me of when my wife and I were shopping for a new motorcoach. It took me 6 months of constant research and talking with current coach owners to find and make a decision on buying one. We found the ideal one for us with the exact floor plan that we wanted. Sticker price was
$ 215 K. During our search we found a few that were $ 250 K but we decided against spending the extra money because there was no added value for that kind of money except a few added trim pieces. :)
I am frugal. I study and research all my purchases and felt that my sewing and the amount I do as well as my budget did not require a high end machine. As it is I know I will be dead and buried and someone else will be sewing on my Chandler. Its pretty bad when we make machines that outlive their owners. :)
If I can save myself some money without compromising quality and reliability then I will. I would rather spend that money at an RV resort in Key West then put it into a machine dealers pocket. Besides, you and Bob already are wealthy and have all the money you need...........LOL......:) I am a broken down, poor upholsterer. 8)
Chris
The guy with 35 years of fixing sewing machines here in my town said a Chandler will go for 25 years before it has a problem and the Juki will go for 30 years before it has a problem. He said that's the primary difference other than the price.
He said the Highlead and Chandler are similar machines with no difference in the quality.
I think that the primary question you should be asking comparing the Juki, Chandler, and Highlead is where can you get the best service from if something does go wrong with it.
gene
Gene:
That is very true. Service is a key issue. I had no problem buying with Bob despite him being in Toledo, Ohio and I am in Florida. I wished we would have had a dealer close by me so I could have went in and sat down at several of the machines. But I put a ton of faith in what Bob told me.
Greg alluded to the fact that its important to have any new machine setup by the dealer before shipping and I agree with him 100 %. My first new machine that I bought was not done that way and was drop shipped from the manufacturer. I chased setup issues with it for 3 months and had major headaches with it.
When I ordered my machine from Bob, he inspected and then set it all up so when I got the machine it was ready to go. I had no problems with it and has required no other service or setup work.
If I have a major problem with it I will have to throw it in the box and ship it back to Bob for repairs. I probably have a dealer in Tampa which is 50 miles or so away but I would not trust anyone else to work on it but Bob.
I am curious though. What do most do when they buy a machine. Did you all buy from a local dealer or did you buy from a distant dealer and have it shipped like I did ?
Chris
I purchased both my Jukis from the local mechanic/dealer. I have known him for years and he's taken care of my machinery for most of that time. He was terrific helping me solve a presser foot problem with my overlock machine and whenever something has come up he's been right there for me. That means a lot to me. And that's why I chose to pay a little more and buy from him. I'm glad I did.
Local
Doyle
Yeah, the importance of having a local SM mechanic can't be overstated.
My guy died several years ago. Thanks to the greatness of Juki, I haven't needed one since. But I'd like to be ready should the need arise.
I'm 50 miles from Dallas. Can anybody recommend some one in the Dallas area? I've talked to a couple of places. I was underwhelmed.
One place told me flat out that he "didn't really even understand walking foot machines". My competitor in town took his Pfaff to a Dallas shop. 2 weeks, $300 (all he did was time it).
If the Dallas area has a Keystone equivalent, I haven't found it yet.
I think Gregg should take his act on the road.
I have been PFAFF owner for years. I have owned my brands from Consews, Pfaffs, Durkrop Adler and Juki. Greg from Keystone makes a good point about different type of machines. In my experiences nothing sews as smooth as a Pfaff 1245 or can sew as heavy as a Adler 205-370. But I have to say I am converting to a Juki nut. The availability on machines and parts won me over to Juki as comparied to Pfaff. I purchased a 1509 from Greg and overall like it more than a 1245 Pfaff. 15 years ago I would never have said that, but it is amazing what time will do to your tastes
STITCHER
If I may jump into the fray so to speak. My very first machine was a singer zig zag (don't remember model no.), when came time to replace I was looking for a pfaff 545 but at the time could only find a used dealer refurbished pfaff 145, it's been great and done everything asked of it. I am looking at replacing when I sell this one (soon). My criteria is this, I look for machine capable of doing everything I want plus more, as I know that with a robust machine I can move on to tougher projects if I chose to. I would spend the extra $$$'s to get into either a Pfaff or a Juki as these are very desirable machines with very good brand recognition which translates to higher resale value later when I want to get rid of it. Plus the fact that being more recognizable there will be better chance for quick sale as opposed to laying in a closet or garage for years cause not everyone wants unknown or uncommon brand. So for 4 me anyways Juki 1508 or 1509, or Pfaff 1245. Of course a good dealer refurbished of either of these or Durkopp/Adler should also not be overlooked as you may well find a real jewel that would be comparable in price to new lesser brand. Ask Gregg at Keystone, he and I spoke at length about this some time back, and from our conversations, when it comes time I WILL BE dealing with him only,I liked and appreciated the way he does business. Your needs could not be better served elsewhere. IMHO
Rene
Thanks for all of your feedback. It was a very difficult decision but I ended up purchasing the Pfaff 1245. After reading all of the posts I purchased the machine locally here in SoCal. If I ever need service my dealer can provide that for me. Now I have another question. For those of you that work with Sunbrella---Do you have a favorite thread manufacture? Coats? Dabond?
Thanks again for all your recommendations
Greg
Congrats Greg. The Pfaff is one awesome machine.
In regards to thread. If your going to be doing sunbrella which is exposed to the outdoor elements I would recommend using Sunguard. It will take a beating from the sun as well as salt air and will perform very well. I also love the way it sews in my machine. It is about $ 10 more for a 1 lb spool then regular bonded Poly but worth it.
I would use nothing smaller then V92. Myself I use nothing but 138 on any fabric that will be exposed to the elements.
The trick to ordering and getting good thread is to get it from a legit supplier. I get my thread through Miami and just learned my lesson on buying through others. I got a junk spool and it caused me nothing but headaches. Some stitchers here order online through the Thread Exchange.
Best of luck with your new machine. :)
Chris