I'll bet theirs a lot of business people that have this problem. For every 10 commercial or government estimates I give, I get maybe one job.
I've learned over the years that their usually shopping for the lowest price so when they call I tell them right off that I'm not the cheapest guy in town. They say oh no no no we want some one who'll do a real nice job. Right!
Awhile ago I gave an in house estimate to an upscale hotel in Lake City. This place had a real nice Lobby and the manager pointed out 8 or 9 pieces he needed reupholstered. I let him know I'm not the lowest price in town but our quality can't be beat. I said a nice place like this needs a high end upholsterer. I really talked myself up . He kept telling me he wants only the best. I kept getting the feeling he wasn't the decision maker but I took the time to work up an estimate anyway. 3 months later no reply. Yes I tried to call him back and he's never their. This happens 3 or 4 times a year.
The latest was at the EMS call center. I herd the lady showing me around tell one of the employees, "ya I have to get 3 estimates". The funny thing is a week later a decorator called and asked if we could give her an estimate for the EMS call center. I could tell you a real doozy about the VA hospital but I'll save it for another time.
To top it off they act like this is just part of my job.
I'm sure every one has this same problem. How do you deal with what seems like a big waste of time?
Back in the day, it WAS a real pain to waste a lot of time doing an estimate that you knew nothing would come of. Now, when I sense that they are just calling to get 3 estimates to satisfy a requirement, I tell them to e-mail me some pics. I pull a nice big round number out of thin air, and e-mail an estimate back to them. Most of them are glad to do it this way, since they don't want to waste their own time any more than I want to waste mine. Everybody's got a digital camera now, and most employees would rather spend their time sitting at a computer uploading photos. I tell them that if they want me to come out and look at everything, there'll be a charge for the estimate. If they just e-mail me some pics, it's free.
I also get about one job out of every 10 commercial/govt. estimates, but I don't spend nearly as much time agonizing over each one anymore.
If it was meant to be, I'll get the job. If not, c'est la vie.
Email a photo and then email them back. Works for me and saves tons of time. Also I work from a price list and that saves time as well.
I had done the furniture for the local hospital here for several years. Then there was a change in regimes in the maintenance dept. They always got their material from a designer who they kept on retainer, so for me it was all labor. Anyway they wanted to recover a bunch of furniture they had scattered all over the hospital and that newly recovered furniture would be used to outfit a new wing theye were getting ready to open. I spent over 3 hours walking the halls and rooms looking at various pieces, working up time estimates and figuring yardages for the various pieces so the designer could order it. Once my estimate was delivered to the head of maintenance, he took it to a local Mom and Pop and asked them if they could beat my price. Of course they said "Yes" since I had done all the leg work for them and they got the job. Another reason I can happily say that I don't do furniture anymore.
I can say from direct knowledge and experience that for government work anyway, is in no way fair except for in the name of political correctness.
I've posted before that I was a maintenance foreman in the welding - machine shop dept. of a local State hospital here in Indiana. When I started there I went through two weeks of training. Very little of the training went towards how to work or associate with patients of a mental hospital, but rather toward endless paperwork and state policies including procurements and contract work. I didn't pay a lot of attention since my job didn't deal with that.
Well over the span of my time there I started to get some work orders to repair geriatric recliners and wheel chairs. Many of the chairs had ripped upholstery and they needed repaired not only for appearance but also for infection control (exposed foam and fillers that could soak up body fluids).
Any way I was running my upholstery shop part time too, so I mentioned that I could take the pads home at night and have them back the next morning. I was told that I had to search online a use a company registered with the state. I ended up finding a dealer for this equipment and had to order new pads from them and at a great cost to the state (taxpayers) when I could have recovered the old ones with an exact match contract vinyl and for fractions of the cost of new ones.
I let it go, but at a later time my boss who knew I did upholstery started talking to me about recovering the seats of our vehicles and grounds equipment. I was sent to our business office to file the paperwork to be a state vendor.
Now remember me mentioning political correctness earlier? This is where that comes into play. First I was told since I was a state employee I ran the risk of being "audited" for unfairness if all paperwork wasn't done properly. In other words when a job was bid, according to state law, at least three estimates were required from state registered vendors. Also all minority or a women owned business would receive first priority in the bid process.
First of all, before I go on I am neither a sexist or racist. My wife is in the professional world as a special ed teacher and my children are all adopted from Haiti and obviously black. Still it seems unfair that I would have to forfeit a potential job in my shop just because the other who bid is a woman or of ethnic background. I was even told to set my wife or even kids as the owners of my business to guarantee the bid would be mine. (I didn't go that route).
Also, too in my state of Indiana if a bid is less than $500 only one estimate is required or if the job needing done is deemed emergency no matter the cost, estimates aren't required either.
Back to what I was saying though about bids for example, I live in the southern most part of the state and that's where the state hospital is located too. We had to put everything out on bid and I've seen first hand a company 2 miles away lose out on a bid from one over 6 hours away in the northern part of the state just because they met the "criteria" of being a minority owned business even though the local guy bid less.
Again I'm not complaining about the color or gender of the business owner, but rather nothing government does makes good financial sense.
Just my two cents worth.
Kyle
Boy did you just say a mouth full. My wife filled paper work to become a vendor at the University of Florida. I wonder if this helped us get the job? This is all very interesting.
Quotebut rather nothing government does makes good financial sense.
This is true. What I love is you go through all the hoops and hurdles, then ask for a deposit for the fabric, they say, "oh! this is the government we don't give deposits". I had one guy, worked for low income housing, I told him up front. I'm going to need a deposit. He said fine no problem. I went through all the motions of measuring the chairs, working up an estimate showing them fabrics. We were all set to go. I asked him for a deposit for the fabric and he said, "oh! This is the government we don't give deposits". gaaaaaaaaaaahhhh
QuoteI tell them to e-mail me some pics
QuoteEmail a photo and then email them back. Works for me and saves tons of time.
Thanks Doc and Bonehead. I keep asking myself, "why didn't I think of that". The other good thing about that is if they don't follow through they must not be serious. Let the competition do all the running around.
QuoteAnother reason I can happily say that I don't do furniture anymore.
Hi Tim. I've been reading your posts with great interest. I'll have some questions for you later on in general discussion. You car guys have got my gears turning. (No pun intended).
Yeah, I forgot to mention that as well about deposits. When I filed my vendor paperwork I had to provide a blank check. That way if I did any work, the state would pay by direct deposit. They had 30-60 days to pay a submitted invoice and with no notice. You would have to keep an eye on your bank account to look out for a deposit. There was one stipulation that could work in your favor though. If the state failed to pay within that timeframe they were automatically required to pay an extra percentage of the invoice. It just hurts the little guy to have to set and wait for payment when they have their own money out there for supplies.
Kyle
Quote from: SHHR on November 30, 2010, 06:01:40 am
In other words when a job was bid, according to state law, at least three estimates were required from state registered vendors. Also all minority or a women owned business would receive first priority in the bid process.
Guess who owns my company ?
My LEGAL immigrant wife. :)
If they want to play those games then no problem. I have yet to play that card though.
Personally, I believe all business should be conducted with no regard to race, religion or gender status. You stand on your own business ethics and quality of work.
Chris
Quote from: Mojo on December 01, 2010, 08:00:30 pm
Quote from: SHHR on November 30, 2010, 06:01:40 am
In other words when a job was bid, according to state law, at least three estimates were required from state registered vendors. Also all minority or a women owned business would receive first priority in the bid process.
Guess who owns my company ?
My LEGAL immigrant wife. :)
If they want to play those games then no problem. I have yet to play that card though.
Personally, I believe all business should be conducted with no regard to race, religion or gender status. You stand on your own business ethics and quality of work.
Chris
I figure that things will HAVE to turn in my favor eventually (when I'm the only white male bidding).
Mojo: No regard to race , religion, or gender? I've reported your radical views to Homeland Security. Some men in dark suits should be knocking on your door any minute now. No more "bobbin winding parties" where YOU'RE going!
Here is my two cents.
Commercial and residential upholstery are related but they are two different animals. You have to a a special mind set to complete in the world of commercial upholstery. How do I compete? How do I price the project? Am I looking for a "one time shot" or a 10 year customer? What can I do to make myself "king of the hill"? etc.....
Let me give you my background. I am a 2nd generation upholsterer and until 3 years ago when I retired, I owned the largest upholstery/custom furniture company in Charlotte, NC. I have owned several retail fabric outlets and I currently sell fabric and leather on the internet. When I had an active shop, we did residential upholstery but I made my money in commercial upholstery.
My customers included all of the hospitals in a 5 county area, Bank of America Corporate Headquarters, First Union Corporate. We had all of the "high end" hotels and dozens of other companies that we did work for at least once a year.
FYI: My last post on this site was about my company reupholstering 6,700 stack chairs in two weeks....Ok, OK it helps that I have a working list of over 100 upholsterers (my shop was 60 miles from both High Point & Hickory NC) and I was able to call in 30 upholsterers and 30 temps to get the job done.
Now that you understand where I was, let me tell you the top 10 things you must do:
#1. Become "KING OF THE HILL". Make sure that you are the 1st to give your quote. This allows you to set the guide lines that each of the following quotes will have to address. I would take my time and walk with the GM and Chief Engineer of the "high end" hotel and look for things that would effect my quote. I would ask questions about previous upholstery projects and would ask to look at what they have already had done.....I would ask if they were pleased with the product (as I am listening to their answers I am looking at the quality that they are willing to"pay" for.
Provide the person in charge with a list of conditions that the other quotes should include.....this will make you the expert in the eyes of the person in charge, and you will make them look good to the people they have to answer to.
Questions to have on your list that will effect your quote:
--What is your turnaround expectation ? (remember that most commercial places do two things with their furniture.......it makes them money (like booth seats) or creates ambiance. In either case, if the furniture to be reupholstered is out of their mix, it creates "holes" in the LOOK that the interior designer intended. FYI:I made money because I could do work on site, during off hours.......and they paid a premium for that service.
--Require all existing fabric to be removed....... Be sure to tell them why this is so important and how it adds to the final beauty of the finished project and be sure to tell them that covering over the old fabric is an easy short cut that some shops do, in order to get the price down. I am sure that this is one of the reasons that several of my fellow upholstery shop owners mean when they say "we are not one of the cheapest shops in town".......until you qualify why you charge what you do, they will not understand. We are not a regulated industry, educate them on why a Cadillac costs more than a Chevrolet........if you do this properly, you will know if you can "swing for the fence" and give a Cadillac price or if you want to compete.......you might have to drop down to a Chevrolet price.
--Do you want a copy of my insurance policy...........you must have liability insurance and most of the "wanna be" contract upholstery shops do not have insurance.
--Offer to do one of the pieces of furniture for free, so they can use it as an example for the others to quote from..... this way it shows them that you are serious. FYI: I have done this several times.......I used one my own fabrics to cover the chair . If you do this your piece better be perfect..you know the other shops giving a quote are going to try and find problems with your work.
--Show them a copy of your certificate of completion of a wood touch up class .......My certificate was from Mohawk Finishing Products .....the class cost a couple of hundred bucks but the certificate helped make me $1,000's.
--Be sure to have a list of all of the commercial clients you have as well as names and phone numbers of referrals they can call.
--Anything else that proves that you worth the money you are asking for
I WILL FINISH THIS IN THE NEXT POST
#2. Can I and do I want to work on site........it was so much easier to set up a upholstery shop in a ball room at a hotel than it was to make 3 trips back and forth to a shop.........most of my work was done over the weekend by my part time labor force .......AKA my list of 100 upholsterers.
#3. Understand that doing large jobs with repetitive pieces requires time studies. These time studies (how long it takes to do a piece) will determine what you are going to charge ......remember, by the time you get to chair #125, it will be at least 30% faster that chair #1.
#4. Treat your commercial clients like a 20 year customers rather than a "one night stand"..........for my largest clients, I would do on site work without any premium charges. Always remember, they make money with their furniture.....make it easy for them to get their furniture done. I use to tell the manager that , "when you come back Monday morning, it will look like the upholstery elves broke in over the weekend and made your furniture look great again".
#5. Become experts on the products of the major contract furniture manufacturers. Herman Miller, Knoll, KI and others..........and yes, they do go out of their way to make if difficult for you to reupholster their furniture. FYI: You can get paid to become an expert......find out who the large office furniture dealers in your area are and try to get them as a client.
#6. Look for creative sources of labor. When you do auditoriums there can be a dozen (or more) screws or bolts per chair.......do you need to be paying your upholsterers to crawl around on the floor, of course not. Look for a fraternity at your local university........40 young men with proper tools and directions can take a 300 seat auditorium apart in an afternoon. Here is what you get, you get your job done and you pay the chapter a check.....not the individuals FYI: the national fraternities insurance covers the brothers because this is a fund raiser....life is good. Plus the the brothers did not have to wash cars to raise money for their chapter.
#7. Find out the names of all of the most active contract interior designers are in your area.
#8. Look for "other" sources of fabric for your projects. FYI: I sell fabric and leather on eBay (user name :silverstonefabrics) and when I sell a customer Naugahyde English Pub EP 87 Oxblood for $5/yd.....it is the real McCoy. $5 per yard is a lot cheaper that what it would cost you to purchase EP 87 from a Naugahyde dealer. FYI: I buy inventories from some of the largest furniture manufacturers here in NC and I have 30 years of experience (and sample books) that allows me to identify specific fabrics, vinyls and leathers. OK, OK .....I agree they is a lot of crap on eBay but there are a few sellers that are very knowledgeable about textiles and leather.
#9.Go to all of the trade shows you can.....knowledge is power. If you never have been to "Showtime" (upholstery fabric trade show in High Point, NC), make a point to go to one (they happen twice a year). FYI: Whenever you are working on a one time deal with a fabric mill or a fabric wholesalers consider telling them that you are a small custom furniture manufacturer instead of a reupholstery shop.......yes, they do have different prices for you....keep in mind their prices are based on full rolls.
#10. Do whatever it takes to become "King of the Hill"
I hope that some of you readers have pulled a few nuggets from my "manifesto" and if my knowledge can make your upholstery adventure a little bit better , then it was worth my time to share it with you
Kyle, I had to go thru the stuff with the State of Indana. I work on seats and such for the INDOT office here. I have to say they worked with me on it and it was not too bad a deal to set up. I had them send me a form I took to my bank and had filled out so they could direct deposit. It was that or the blank check and I opted for the form. They now send you an email notice when they make the deposit. Pretty good system really. Matter of fact, just done a seat for them yesterday. But as in all Gooberment business, it'll be a month or so to payday.
Sterry, there's a lot of useful information in your posts, even for those of us who are one-man-shows. I occasionally sub out when I get swamped and was wondering how you manage to get your subs to maintain your standard of quality. Especially on the big jobs where you probably can't personally inspect every aspect of every piece and if you could, how to deliver on time if you (or some other high-quality sub) had to rework pieces done below your standards. After the customer "build-up" on the right way to do things, if one of your subs delivers less than that, I expect there'd be hell to pay if there were no time left to redo it correctly.
Mojo, your wife won't get your company "women or minority owned" status approval unless she's a citizen. At least not in Florida. I recall just a few years ago reading the minimum requirements for gaining approval as a gov. supplier. I was thinking it might be a good bread-and-butter account to get Fish & Wildlife or Marine Patrol boat work. Got busy and never did pursue it.
June
June, Thank you for the kind words.
When you get to the point that my company was, keep in mind it took me over 15 years to get to that size.
When I 1st took over the company......it was a true "mom & pop" shop. My parents employed an upholsterer and a sewer ......and of course, their two sons (me and my brother), was the strip team & pick up and delivery.
On any large job, there is a chain of command........just like the military. FYI: When we are planning an on site project.....we call it our "battle plan" .
The first thing that we did was show the upholsterers exactly what we were expecting.....we normally had the 1st piece of furniture already upholstered by the time we got to the site. This way the guy's had a reference point of what we were looking for.
By the time we got to the super sized jobs, I had 1 project manager and 1 supervisor per 5 upholsterers......and their bonus was based upon quality. Each piece we did had a tag that identified the upholsterer and supervisor. The supervisors pay was based on quality and speed but the most important aspect was quality. FYI: To become one of my supervisors, you would have had to had been with me on a least 2 other on site projects as an upholsterer.
My upholsterer "list" was made up of guys and most of the people on that list were referrals from other people on that list........we knew what type of person we were looking for and we paid people to look out for others........if a referral was used twice, I paid the person that referred that upholsterer a bonus. (I had one guy put over 20 people on the list).
Yes, I had had to go back and re-do pieces before but not many. Steve
Before anyone pursues being a supplier to local or state government, you might want to read this...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40514947/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times
June
Quote from: kodydog on November 29, 2010, 09:39:55 pm
I'll bet theirs a lot of business people that have this problem. For every 10 commercial or government estimates I give, I get maybe one job. Considering that some companies hire full time employees to simply review government contracts, that's not a bad ratio!
I've learned over the years that their usually shopping for the lowest price so when they call I tell them right off that I'm not the cheapest guy in town. They say oh no no no we want some one who'll do a real nice job. Right! GIve me the name of one person the past two years who is not shopping price these days. I'll bet you are, too!
Awhile ago I gave an in house estimate to an upscale hotel in Lake City. This place had a real nice Lobby and the manager pointed out 8 or 9 pieces he needed reupholstered. I let him know I'm not the lowest price in town but our quality can't be beat. I said a nice place like this needs a high end upholsterer. I really talked myself up . He kept telling me he wants only the best. I kept getting the feeling he wasn't the decision maker but I took the time to work up an estimate anyway. 3 months later no reply. Yes I tried to call him back and he's never their. This happens 3 or 4 times a year. In my honest opinion, people want BOTH quality and value; you offered only one of the two. The people you are quoting are not likely to have any concept of your level of quality vs. a competitor. Best to say "We offer the very best quality and competitive prices." That works, and doesn't incriminate yourself as being high end and expensive. In fact, you may have no idea what your competitors are going to quote, high or low. At least keep yourself in the game here. In fact, if I was getting a quote, and someone told me they were not the least expensive off the bat, I might just head for the hills! Or, at the very least, get another quote; I would feel stupid not to. Either way, it's not good.
The latest was at the EMS call center. I herd the lady showing me around tell one of the employees, "ya I have to get 3 estimates". The funny thing is a week later a decorator called and asked if we could give her an estimate for the EMS call center. I could tell you a real doozy about the VA hospital but I'll save it for another time.
To top it off they act like this is just part of my job. It is.
I'm sure every one has this same problem. How do you deal with what seems like a big waste of time?
Don't take this the wrong way, I am saying this tongue in cheek, but I do feel there is some truth mixed in here, too! ;)
Aside from having fun with kodydog's post, hopefully not at his expense, I do want to say that posts from
sterry56 were fantastic, and on point. Lots of great notes and nuggets in there. Almost too good to be true, and it softly hits on a lot of barriers that I see people running into; trying to take on the World all by themselves. Trying to circumvent the system. Doing work with the government or commercial business is certainly not for the faint of heart. But one thing sterry56 points out well is that you if you are to succeed, you must play by their rules, or your ship is sunk. Does it make sense? Is it logical and efficient, most of the time? NO! It rarely is. Get over it, stop trying to be the Lone Ranger standing up to the system, doing things your own way, and never giving up. It's a battle many have fought and few have won.
A refugee from the barely breathing domestic garment industry, I believe I've fallen in love with Sterry56 and his understanding of the "piece rate" thing. What great posts!
But, implicit in those posts, is the ability to think carefully about the bid you're about to submit and the small, subtle ways you can "market" your skills by asking the questions that get the customer thinking about the work from your point of view not only as a fellow businessman but as an educated "consumer".
Quote from: bobbin on December 15, 2010, 12:30:29 pm
A refugee from the barely breathing domestic garment industry, I believe I've fallen in love with Sterry56 and his understanding of the "piece rate" thing. What great posts!
But, implicit in those posts, is the ability to think carefully about the bid you're about to submit and the small, subtle ways you can "market" your skills by asking the questions that get the customer thinking about the work from your point of view not only as a fellow businessman but as an educated "consumer".
Another great point; an educated consumer. My best customers are educated consumers, who understand the value of our services, not just only a price tag. Kind of full circle thread here, going back to educating your customer if they don't see the value in your work and service, and expertise.
These were all great posts and I'm still trying to digest it all. Sterry, we could use a lot more posts like yours. I can see where someone could take your ten points and really take off with them. I love the way he saw an opportunity and created a business around it. I'm working on my own list of conditions that will create the standard for all others to go by and plan on using it in my next commercial estimate.
After reading these posts I had to ask myself what is it I really want. I don't have the means to run a business like Sterry did. My best costumers are retired homeowners, wealthy, and appreciate fine craftsmanship. So this is the person my business peruses. If an occasional commercial job comes my way I'll gladly take it. A lot of people think the upholstery business is highly competitive. I don't see it this way. If you do the highest quality possible and give excellent customer service you can get the price you want and customers will come to you in throngs. In bad times when others are closing their doors, you'll find your greatest opportunities. Look around yourself and ask how can I make my product better? What can I do to create more income? What niche can I fill? You can't run a business by under bidding your competition. Sooner or later someone will come along and beat your price.
In my original post I wasn't trying to figure out how to get more commercial jobs but how to make better use of my time.
Sterry my hats off to you. I'm sure there were times you felt married to your business. But you made it work.
Quote from: SHHR on November 30, 2010, 06:01:40 am...a women owned business would receive first priority in the bid process.
I personally know of two businesses where the wife legally owns the business (51%), but has nothing to do with it. Operated entirely by the husband.
You can guess why.