I spent the day working on a replacement enclosure for a 280 Sundancer. The old panels were in pretty good shape except for the glass that was really hazy and it was made too small (no normal human could have ever gotten it zipped and snapped). The way it was made prevented it from having the glass replaced, so I'm doing a complete replacement. It got me thinking. Should I care about how I construct a piece when the customer doesn't? I'm not talking about its ability to do the job, I'm talking about the techniques employed in producing the product.
The enclosure I'm replacing was made with the Sunbrella binding on the outside only. On the inside you see glass with stitches through. The curved binding that follows the windshield was made as an applique with double-fold along the inside edge, instead of turned-under hem. This was then stitched to the glass. The zip was stitched into the double-fold along the very edge of the non-snapped edges. It worked, but IMHO, doesn't look so great because I don't like to see stitches through glass. Does it really matter what I like? When production shops cut corners, but the end result functions just as well as the custom piece, does my personal like/dislike mean anything at all? I could have shaved many hours off this project if I employed the same techniques as the original manufacturer.
June
I don't think it's a question of whether or not you should care, but rather one of, "how much should you care". And that, of course, is entirely up to you. What it all boils down to is how your quotes are received by customers who don't seem to notice the difference between the cheap, production line canvas or the carefully considered and crafted custom jobs that so many of us make and become the "signatures" of our shops, as well as a sense of pride.
I know I watch my boss insist that I basically remake a cheapie side window panel when one comes in for glass replacement. You know the kind, 20 g. glass, bound all around, webbing reinforcment on the inside of the bottom only to support the snaps. Real, "down and dirty" production crap. But I think the "remake approach" is nuts in that instance. Use 1/4" tape, pop off the snaps, and slap the plastic on the outside of the binding (neatly!), replace the snaps and be done with it. It's a cheapie repair, for Pete's sake and the owner will likely be thrilled with the cheaper option if given the choice. So, I think the amount of "care" should rightly be graduated for the importance of the job on the bench in front of you.
I face the same thing in alteration work... clothing is constructed to be produced quickly and that makes it difficult to alter in many circumstances. There's a lot to UNdo before I can get to the area in question. I know when I make the occasional custom garment I always include larger seam allowances and I overlock pcs. individually before lockstitching the seams together. It takes more time, but it's a custom item, and I use the ability to have the pc. altered up or down easily in the future as one of the selling points of my skill. It's not for everyone because not everyone cares. But many women in professional careers appreciate the ability to have a skirt or slacks altered with ease as they know their weight will fluctuate by 10-15 lbs over time and altering a pc. is less costly than replacement.
Good point for discussion.
I can only comment from my own experiences and feelings.
My business is 98 % referrals. Anything I send out the door has to be professional looking and stand out among my competitors. I make sure I inform and educate my customers. If they still insist on me making them something cheap by cutting corners I politely inform them that I cannot do it.
My product, snapped to the side of an RV is my advertising. While I may lose a sale now and then due to competitor costs, I also know I would lose a helluva lot more business in the long run by putting out work that clearly shows I cut corners and made it on the cheap. I have found people will spend a ew more bucks for quality.
I am not very familiar with marine work June. But because this issue is bothering you shows just how much pride and professionalism you have in your work. That alone can set you apart from the other stitchers in your area.
Chris
When a customer brings something in for repair, namely, if it served their purpose in spite of the way it was built and they were happy with it, realistically the craftsman in most cases is bound to doing it again the same way, if better means more consumer cost because they will probably not want to spend the extra money.
To do otherwise, at the shops expense is not good business management, because the craftsman has to be paid for time expended. Fix it the way they are willing to pay for it, both win.
If you spot a chance to up sell, do your thing to explain the differences in quality custom, then if the customer wants to or not spend, again both win. It is their money, afterall.
The market today has changed from the day of my mom and pop, today's priorities and values are reflecting that. The market today will complain about spending, for example $300 for a chair while they brag about spending well over $4,000 for a big screen TV.
Back to the chair example, If I try to upsale the chair to one made better because.................. I can see it on their face, who cares it is just a place to sit down. Then, as I look in the rear view mirrow, a dog is sleeping on the chair anyway.
The boat owner is probably more interested in how fast the thing will go or what color it is than the bobbing thread showing. That is just the way it is. It doesn't mean you are a bad craftsman, just be very transparent about it up front if there is a sense of problems later.
No one said being in business would be easy, issues such as this can be probed deeper, bottom line is it has to be competitive and pay salaries.
Ask GM and Chrsyler, for starters. Loyalty is getting thinner all the time.
Doyle
The answer should be found in your marketing plan.
I do not do "down and dirty". I provide a level of service and a level of quality that is second to no one. One primary reason that my shop is not open to the public is that the general public does not want a level of service and a level of quality that is second to no one.
I finished a job for a new customer and they then asked me to give them a "down and dirty" price on a sofa that they wanted to show in their store to let customers know that they provide upholstery work (through me, of course). I did not give her a quote. I don't do "down and dirty". I also have not heard from them since.
I have a marketing plan that so far is working well for me. There could come a time when I choose to add a line of "down and dirty" upholstery. I'd certainly want to keep it separate from what I am doing now.
It's kind of like KC Barbeque Sause and Clorox Bleach. You would not know that they were owned by the same company by reading what was on their labels. By the way, (this was a few years ago), they were actually being filled on the same filler line in Philadelphia. I always wondered if that's what gave KC that unique twang to their taste.
Remember Zino, that alcoholic beverage that more women liked than men? It tasted like a cross between booze and wine. That was made by Coors, and Coors did not want to tarnish their beer reputation so they used another bottling name on the bottles.
gene
Gene: You make some great points about "down and dirty" vs. " second to no one". I agree that it's difficult to do both from the same "open to the public" location.
I grew up in a family upholstery business that was "down and dirty" from the early 60's on. I don't think I could change that reputation now. Over the years, I've tried to transition to more "high end" work (something my parents, and grandparents NEVER aspired to do) with a moderate amount of success.
I get a fair amount of "high end" work now. And the "down and dirty" work is quick and profitable, so I can't really complain.
June: I don't do your type of work, so I didn't even try to understand the problem that you were describing. But I suspect that it was one of those things that would bother ONLY YOU. The average Joe will probably never give it a second thought.
Yes, you should care, but if the circumstances dictate that it be that way, try not to lose any sleep over it.
Sounds like a real cheap enclosure he had. Small sea Ray canvas,s I've replaced have had cavas on the outside bit more like 2"not the width of binding. I have made windows with only outside facing and only clear vinyl inside. Cheaper yes Now I have to repla e a enclosure. O. A sailing cat but did have double sided caving as i like to do bit the job is how I charge it. If the customer want what he had cheap I'll give it to him. I probly will not put mytag on it. I make sure the custoMer
knows what there getting as much as possible in the confrack
that way they can't say "hey".
Edited for typos
I have been involved in a lot of building projects over the years
Often you would come across something that worked but was not well done.
I would go to the builder to discuss and thecomment was always it's ok it does the job.
My reply was "Would you do this in your house??"
99% of the time the answer was no!!
Usually that was the end of it and the item was fixed without further ado.
If you wouldn't accept it on your project then ofter the customer won't
If they do it will often be because they don't know any better
Do the best you can on any job and sleep easy at night
Allan
QuoteIf the customer want what he had cheap I'll give it to him.
It is and should be their decision.
I charge by estimate and my earnings are the same either way, technically. Customers prioritize their spending and decide what is best for them and how money should be spent.
The business owner is charging for time and materials, therefore done technically, the profit picture is irrespective of the standards of production. The profit picture can be and is usually better for less intensive work.
Doyle
Well, I'm doing the replacement my way - what I would consider to be a better way, but that's what got me thinking in the first place. Who am I to impose my design aesthetic on others? Who am I to say my work is better than the next guy's?
June
Well with. Double facing "no clear vinyl inside"
you womt see Any dirt inside as long as tour doing them all it's all good ! They didn't ask how they wid be made. I'll let them k kw the new stuff will be beter and why. Sells the job better.
I guess it comes down to what you can live with ::) If you didn't do it to your satisfaction are you going to be looking at it every time & thinking, yuk I could have done better ?
I have a 'brand new' sprayhood & bimini on the table for some modifications.
I know where it comes from (a canvas supplier for Jeaneau yachts ;))
They have used #5 zipping everywhere ( I always use #10) & did not 'match' up side to side, I mean like two zips should meet in the middle right ? not one start & one stop. One zipper for a complete bow pocket so leaving a zipper stop on the outside end of the pocket (bimini) so it can open it's self up under tension ??? One s/s zipper stop crimped to one side of the zip end . Things which no doubt speeded up production & the owner has not mentioned at all ???
And all the stitching has faded after only 2months on the boat :-X
I know it's not a one off as I have done several restitches on other boats with the canvas from the same manufacturer.
Could I produce the same product, absolutely, would I be happy with it , only if it sailed away & I didn't see it again :P . No not really, I had an 'old' job turn up this year which I did about 6 years ago, a bit faded but going strong :D & yes they wanted more work doing ;D
You care to much about the product & not the bottom line, yep me two. :-*
I really don't like when they're done that way, looking at stitching on the inside of the vinyl. I trim both sides and let the customer know why I do it that way and how it's better. They always seem to like it better too.
I wonder if it would be a good thing to make up a couple of small sample panels in your spare time and put them out in your shop for customers to see. One with the stitches showing and one trimmed out with binding (the way you recommend). That way customers can see the difference and if they are set on the "cheaper" way then you can make it clear ther is no warranty on that way.
Most retail stores do it all the time comparing side by side the item they sell VS. brand X. that usually gets customers to buy a better quality and usually higher priced item.
Kyle
i have a small enclosure and top the good way one side is single faced to show how it is inferior
ofcourse if i was matching an exsisting window or they wanted to spend less money they can have what they want
The question - Should we care?
Wow, doesn't seem to matter if we are in the north the south or Europe... this is a very good question.
All i can say is that there are a few boat owners who seem to recognise quality. The majority only price.
I did a dodger, bimini and joining top piece for a client last spring. Also gave a quote for the remaining full enclosure (side & back curtains). He's seen my other jobs and knows that my normal level of finish (and corresponding quoted price) is for full finish -windows 'framed' with fabric both sides, colour matched binding, caps, etc. in strataglass and pfte thread. 8)
He calls a month ago to say he took a cheaper quote. :-X
I walked by the boat 2 days ago and see its got open-edge windows, fabric is on the inside (so that you're looking through the glass from the outside and see all the stitches; the binding and socket caps all different colours and poly thread. In other words doesn't match the quality product I built that it's connected to - :'(
But hey, he's happy as a clam - he saved two hundred bucks!!
That is a good idea, display the results and charge accordingly, everyone wins!
Question: what is the time difference between these two methods? The factory method and the more esthetically appealing product?
Is the difference around a third more in time and materials?
Offering the two levels of a product, one practical and another with higher appeal is a win-win situation, as long as the customer gets some service out of the product.
Upholsterers have a time based skill and they have to get paid for it.
The longer I am in business, the more time sensitive I become.
Time is money.
Doyle
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When I come back home, I care my baby. When I hold my baby in my arms for the first time, an awareness floods over me which never be the same again in your lifetime. A new member arrived to our family and promoted us from husband and wife to father and mother. Normally parents learn a lot from their babies especially patience, love etc.
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Db there Is allot more time to do cou le facing more then a $200 savings in time.
Thanks for that analysis Mike and to June for posting and her input. It surely adds to my understanding of marine canvas work. You guys are the best and June your judgement is superior as to "how to and care about what you do". As an outsider, my firm thought is you should be paid for it because which ever product you provide will be second to none.
I get into furniture and auto and other work that requires similar judgement and sometimes I have to decide that the way the customer wants it is the best, it is their money. But, if I don't think it will give service, I will tell them. This recession and the different standards, priorities, of my clients are there to be dealt with and I am willing to do that.
Mike, I did feel that double facing and doing the perfection work would be that significant, I do appreciate the understanding provided.
When young, my grandmother use to size it all up this way: "It is mind over matter and if you don't mind it won't matter". ;)
Good to hear you guys have great weather, you deserve it after the summer. Ours really isn't bad, it is what follows that gets my attention. :)
Thanks to everyone, interesting subject,
Doyle
There's a movie that came out in 1996 called "Big Night" that I was reminded of when I read this post. Two brothers open an Italian restaurant and the one in the kitchen gets upset when the other comes back to ask him to make something a certain way for a customer. The chef brother is so incensed by the request that he sees as beneath his culinary dignity that he goes out into the dining room to yell at the "uneducated" diners. Of course this is a comical and extreme illustration, and I'm all for giving the customer his money's worth by doing the best job possible, but I think it depends, to a large extent on how many are willing to pay for it. If it's not many, then I'd say the job has to be done the way they want it. If most are willing to pay, then don't even bother with the second rate method.
My .02,
Rich