Long story short - I was burned by a customer to the tune of $1800 on the balance of his job. I have a contract signed by him stating he's in the wrong, but I know the complicated battle is not going to be worth the trouble associated with collecting the balance due. In reality, I'll lose more money by wasting time and costs on such a pursuit, but I can't let go mentally and need advice.
I'm reminded of the movie "A Bronx Tale" and trying to convince myself that by "paying $1800" for this guy to go away, I'm better off. The problem is I can't let my mind accept I've been burned by this clown and move on. Does anyone have any advice on "letting go" which I obviously have a hard time doing? I more than earned that money, I'm really proud of the job, but when I see the photos of my work instead of a feeling of pride I'm overcome with resentment over the ordeal.
Any help would be great, again - I'm legally in the right spot, but its simply not worth the time and money to chase down a deadbeat who I now know has larger financial concerns than this balance to me which results in even less of a chance of satisfaction ever happening.
Thanks
Greg
Nothing pisses me off more than some *hole stiffing a tradesman. I know exactly what you're saying about the time and money involved in "going after him". You're right. But sometimes making the effort to uphold the principle of the agreement is important. You have to make that call for yourself.
I had a woman stiff me on a very complicated alteration job many years ago. I was working in a store, tracked down a skirt in the right color to match the jacket she'd bought, and then altered it for her. She arrived at the store, picked it up and left and never paid for it, telling the woman at the register she'd already paid me. She was a real estate agent in the same town I'd grown up in. I've never forgotten her name or the amount she's owed me for nearly 20 yrs. now. And I'm certain she's screwed several others who were honest, trusting, and gave her latitude. She's a liar, an *hole, and usually those are the first to be hit when times get hard.
Karma, baby. What goes around, comes around. I've often thought about tracking her down on Facebook; things are different now! Deadbeats can't just "evaporate".
Obviously I don't know the laws of your state, but I hear of small claims court all of the time tacking on your legal expenses to the balance your customer would owe you so you walk out of court not owing anything. Also What kind of work is it? If it's on a vehicle (boat,RV,Car, Truck)you can file a mechanics lien. In Indiana it's only $25-$50 filing fee and although you may not be able to collect right away, if it's ever sold either he won't be able to or you'll get your money then.
I do agree sometimes "letting go" may be the easiest, however when I've done it something usually down the road draws my mind to it and I get madder than ever, so I never really let go of it.
I've had discussions with friends and family over similar topics and they usually say fight it just for the principle of it. That shows your deadbeat customer that he shouldn't try it again with someone else (and he will) plus it shows that you can't be taken advantage of as well.
Hey if all else fails Get everyone from the forum here to show up at this guys together and we'll collect!!! >:(
Kyle
Quote from: Geech on October 27, 2010, 11:32:46 am
I have a contract signed by him stating he's in the wrong, but I know the complicated battle is not going to be worth the trouble associated with collecting the balance due. In reality, I'll lose more money by wasting time and costs on such a pursuit, but I can't let go mentally and need advice.
This is why I don't bother with signed contracts. They only protect you from honest people (and you don't need protection from THEM).
Greg: If the situation were reversed, you can bet he would be shouting from the rooftops about what a dog you are. Publicly shaming him might be your best course of action.
If you have solid documentation a collection agency may give you 20 or 30 cents on the dollar??? You get some money and the knowledge that the customer will get at least a few phone calls.
Gene
Dont do it yourself. Stay out of court, don't hire a lawyer. It will cost you too much. Contact a Collection Agency. They even have wording that you need to get on your contracts that will allow you to get you WHOLE amount back. The contract signee agrees to pay above and beyond the initial amount to cover all collection and attorneys fees if they welch out. I use it about once a year. I collect my contract and invoice, fill out their information sheet and fax it off. It's the last I have to worry about. I've only had ONE that they couldn't track down the deadbeat and not get me my money.
I have a copy of my Check In form I can send you if you message me. It includes the wording that proects me and allows me to go after deadbeats.
Yup, Gene & stither_guy beat me to it; Collection Agency.
Thats the reason that sign hangs in the shop CASH ONLY. Jobs released on full payment.
Ooooooh it's hard to let go. Wish I had some advice. I did the collection agency thing - he refused to pay. Period. Turned it over to small claims court with a cheap ($550) lawyer. Won my case. Guess how much I collected???!!! Nada. Nothing. Lien on boat? Where is it? If I ever see it, I'm going to be sorely tempted to break the law and slash all that "free" upholstery I did.
Only thing I can suggest is to move on. The good customers will restore your faith in people, but it takes time. I just did a job yesterday and the customer was all up and down the dock telling everyone he saw what a great canvas person I was :D and he paid in cash.
June
When I first started out in this business I was very young, about 20 and looked even younger. People tried to take advantage of me alot. I got stiffed a few times, thankfully only for a few hundred bucks, but it really hurts, especially for a new business surviving on every cent. I hung a sign in my shop where everyone who came in could see it, it said (50% deposit required, balance paid if full before pick up or delivery) This helped, but it amazed me how many businesses just assumed they had credit with me, so soon after I hung the first sign, I was hanging a second sign that said ( no credit ). This strategy worked well, but I still had problems with some people. It was never enough money to go to court over, so I kept that person in my mind, guess I never let go either. Anyway, I live is a small community, so over time I would get an opportunity to get my money back, or get even in some way.
A kind gentleman who was a customer, was looking over the invoice I had just given him. He said to me, I would like to give you some advice. He told me I should have an expressed mechanics lien and also some kind of release from liability that my customer signed before any work was done. I took him up on his advice, although I have been fortunate and have never had to fall back on it, the legal sounding wording seams to have stopped most of the trouble I was having, that and I look much older now may have something to do with it.
I have heard that if you have a signed mechanics lien and don't get paid you can have a sheriff go and get the item. Then you can hold it for payment, or sell it to recoup your loss. I suspect every state has different laws on this. Like I said, never had to use it, I just don't let people take stuff until it is paid for in full.
I have a question about collection agencies for you guys who have used them. Do they have any real teeth to go after losses? The reason I'm asking is for over three years now I've had a dispute with Dish Network over satellite tv service. They started charging me for pay per view movies no one in the house ordered.
After arguing a while they refused to remove the charges, so I suggested what they could do with their sattelite dish and told them to shut off my service and I sent back the equipment to them. I paid all of my bill except for the pay-per-view charges. They kept billing me and I kept calling refusing to pay. Two years went by with nothing said and I receive a call from a collection agency over it. The man I spoke with was very nice and understood my story, but suggested I pay just to avoid further trouble. I told him I would think about it and call him back the next day. Well I did and I told him I decided I'm still not paying since I'm not in the wrong. He was cordial and we ended the call. Well about a year later (last week to be exact) another collection agency called here for my wife over the Dish tv bill. She told them the story too and also plain and simply we're not paying. The person on the line told her "thank you this will close your case and will never hear from us again".
I don't know if it was a true "honest" agency or someone who has access to records trying to make a quick buck.
Kyle
I worked for a collection agency 25 years ago and the only teeth they really have are small claims court. We would collect on less than 10% of the accounts turned over to us. Most of those were for select clients and the clients didn't really have a collection dept so they just sent to over to us to follow up on and we could collect on a larger percentage of those accounts. At that time we never looked at small claims court for accounts less then $250.00 because it wasn't worth the cost. I would image that figure is higher today.
Unless they threaten to take you to court you aren't in legal trouble.
The other issue is they can assign a bad record to your credit report and they threaten with that as well.
Hope that helps.
Clay
Since you asked for advice on letting go, I'm assuming you have no realistic expectations of seeing this money, but have found all the advice for future dealings posted here to be helpful. For the letting go part, I find it helpful to remind myself that I believe there is justice in the eternal. For example; Hebrews 10:30 "For we know Him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"a and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
Rich
I agree with June I got stiffed $700 in the end.anyone canto o er a jod with a magninying lend Anne find a flaw if they want to.
I'd be inclined do somthing bad if inhad the operatunity.
Move on and be happy
I have several buddies who own large businesses in Michigan and they use a collection agency in Detroit. I forget the name but I think Guido and Luca Brasi work for them. :)
I have been stiffed numerous times in business deals. My worst was for $ 2,800. I was so pissed I was going to go to the guys house with a baseball bat and beat the moose crap out of him. In the end I just let it go. I had such a great reputation in the marketing industry that when others heard of it they too were PO'ed and they refused to do business with him. The word spread all over the State of Michigan and in the end it destroyed his reputation and he had to shut down his business.
I stewed over every loss I ever had over the years until I finally learned the art of letting go and here is the secret - " It is all mind over matter and some people do not matter ". I learned to forget about the deals gone bad while learning some valuable lessons along the way and then I moved on. No POS is worth my time or energy stewing over them. In the end they always get what they have coming to them.
Just remember - Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice shame on me.
Chris
I hope nobody uses this agency
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/r/25569199/detail.html
Thank you all for the good advice. I apologize for the disappearing act, but I ran into some health problems that took me out of commission for a couple weeks. Nothing like losing the ability to work when you're already talking about being stiffed ;)
I've been looking into the Mechanic's Lien and plan on following through with it at least. I'll have to do some investigation on debt collectors as well moving forward. Sadly, that boat is most likely going to become a part of the guy's lawn ornaments some day with the rest of his "forgotten" vehicles that litter his lawn on his country property.
Seeing as how he insisted on paying cash, claimed to not have a checking account or credit card when I said I preferred something with a little more traceability for such a large transaction, I'm going to assume a debt collector would not get very far with him. Its not small change I'm out, somewhere to the tune of $1400 for the contracted work and about $2000 total when you factor in the "above and beyond" work that was added during the job. I'm by far not a rich man, nor am I small in stature, easily threatened, or easy to take advantage, but when I was in full swing of the busy season I thought it made more sense to just let it go away quietly because the production I'd lose fighting him in my already hectic schedule would prove to cost more than I'd earn. Spending more than 1-2 days on this guy would make his $1400 debt double due to being the one man show who can't work on other jobs and fight to get paid on an old one at the same time. With no guarantee, I decided to focus on my good customers who were patiently waiting for my services.
I have this terrible habit of obsessing on negative things I guess, and I wanted to not do it with this issue but here we are 6 months later and the thought of it or driving near his street churns it up again. I was satisfied with the profit I did collect despite the non-payment right up to when he tried to weasel all of his money back from me by claiming poor work after accepting the boat 4 months earlier with never a complaint or request for a repair to anything sold.
Simply put, days before picking up / accepting the finished job he found out his very beloved 12 year old dog had bad cancer. Fast forward a few months and he called first telling me he spent $8000 trying to keep the pooch alive but lost. I knew what that dog meant to him, so I wasn't shocked when he vanished with a balance due and I honestly thought he'd be showing up any day to bring that last payment but days turned into weeks, etc. Next he tried to pick apart every single aspect of the job stating he heard "I offer a 100% money back guarantee" from someone which I do on my boat covers - if I can't satisfy the pickiest customer, I'll unsnap the canvas, take it back, and hand over their deposit which of course I've never had to do. But we're talking about a 19' cuddy cabin whose only original piece of interior that remained after the job was the plastic shell from the captain's chair due to rot so I couldn't exactly roll over and let him use a loophole. His arguments were that because he let the boat sit for something like 8 weeks and pink mold formed inside was somehow my fault or the hours he spent trying to find flaws to bitch about (the stripe on the port side seat is 1/8" wider than the one on the starboard side he claimed as one reason for asking for his money back) which was clearly his way of trying to recoop his losses on his poor dog. I'm sympathetic more than most when it comes to pets, but not to the point of losing my own house!
continued...
Between the above customer and the customer from hell I wrote about earlier this year with the houseboat enclosure, I have two jobs in the history of my company that have not gone smoothly and refuse to go away despite resolution on each. Of course I'm referring to the d-bag customer who felt he he knew more than me about canvas and my stupidity for not taking all of your advice of "I don't care what it costs, run Greg - you don't want this guy as a customer." In the three boating seasons that have passed since I opened my doors, I've had the pleasure of service around 325+ different customers, resulting in 325+ very satisfied customers to the best of my knowledge. 85-90% of my business is from referrals so I must be doing something right I imagine, and yet I spend my time focusing on two insatiable con-artist customers when I take a snapshot of my successes and failures.
The freaking guy with the a-hole job in the spring I wrote about long ago sent me an early Christmas present the other day. Here is a guy who hasn't contacted me since I completed the dreaded enclosure to his satisfaction in May other than to contract me for MORE work on his boat which I only accepted because it was simple and I needed to recoop some losses on the enclosure I basically gave him, and now is taking me to court. He called at the end of his boating season to ask for his bimini storage boots I had completely forgotten to deliver with his enclosure (it stays up every day its on the water so he was in no hurry for them at the time and my true mistake for never delivering them), apparently I did not return his voicemail fast enough (if you recall that other story you can see why I didn't jump fast enough at calling him), and received a threatening voicemail from his buddy who contracted me for the job originally a few days later. I said enough was enough, I knocked out his overdue items, apologized for the oversight in an email / printed letter accompanying the boxed goods I sent him after not reaching him by phone, and then proceeded to state I no longer wished to do business with him for obvious stated reasons but felt I had no choice. Never a peep in the months that have passed since doing so, stupidly I assumed no contact meant "understood."
Two days ago, a certified letter shows up where he filed a civil suit against my business at the magistrate stating he wanted all of his $5k+ back for the job because "Inferior product. Poor quality. Refuses to come correct neccessesary repairs" (typo intentional). I can't wait for my day in clown court over this one, I say "clown" only because I feel any process that allows anyone with the ability to hold a crayon to file a suit and waste your time requiring your attendance without any screening of validity or merit before making you show up, not to mock the people in the magistrate's office, simply the process they hate as much as I do. I actually look forward to it.
He's another classic example of "I used my product for 5 months without one complaint upon finally accepting it after asking you to make 10 modifications in design after the fact, but I had to pull my boat out of the water early this year for undisclosed reasons, so now I'm going to say after using it all season without a gripe that its poor quality and try to get my money back because I'm in a financial pinch most likely." Yes, it will be a blessed appearance in our local version of People's Court.
Some of you may recall I come from the IT industry and started this business after having a longtime dream of doing so when the "once in a lifetime, the stars are really aligned" moment presented itself. For almost three years now I've resisted job offers as former colleagues try to pull me into their new employer's doors with some rather enticing offers that exceed what I had made / I am making now. But no kidding, earlier in the same day the letter arrived I couldn't resist going to check out the latest opportunity to make way too much money to ignore and was considering "going part time" or even more fun, enjoyable hobby with the business because the potential deal dangled in front of me is simply too good to ignore. Unfortunately if the offer is formally made, I can't resist making twice as much while working half as hard but I'm in my early 30's and have plenty of time to regroup and apply my lessons learned... At the very least, I'll have one hell of a toy collection for my hobby if I flip the closed sign a final time.
Thank you all so much for taking the time to read, respond, and commiserate with my fun tales of "what not to do" yet again. I know I'm long winded at the keyboard, but I can't help it. As always I sincerely appreciate the advice of my wiser and more experienced online support group here!
Thanks and I hope your days are less drama filled!
Greg
Hey, Greg,
Please keep us posted!
Greg:
I wish you the very best in whatever you do.
Hopefully you can prevail in court and show that this jerk is a fraud.
Be sure to keep us posted.
Chris
If you are sole proprietor you will have a judgment against you personally if you lose for even $1.00 in damage. The judge will not care. If you are liable for $5,000 or $5.00 you will get a judgment against you. Keep that in mind. And it will stay on your credit record for a long time too. Keep that in mind.
If It was me from past experience, I would see a lawyer and counter sue.
80 or 90% of lawsuit are dropped when someone counter sues. No joke. I've seen it work.
Everyone thinks they can sue with out causing any problems to them self but if you counter sue they will think oh S... Maybe we can work this out.
Good luck
Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll most certainly look into a lawyer and possible counter sue.
I ignored this guy's negative publicity when a customer after his job told me about the name bashing he was delivering at a recent event, but this one has me rather interested in putting a sock in his mouth.
I spoke to the guy the other day and his story sounds terribly shaky. He couldn't answer my simple questions so I stopped short of discussing if further so I didn't give him anything to prepare a case for. What a waste of time.