We have a customer who is into natural. She wants us to rebuild the marshal cushion units on her loveseat that are wrapped in cotton. Rose says yes, I say no.
I've never rebuilt a cotton wrapped marshal unit. I cant even imaging how to stuff it without it getting all bunched up.
I took a strong stance and said, this is something I do not want to do. She says she will show me how.
Yes, this is a domestic dispute. Yes we have been through this before. Somebody help me.
Its not that bad. They are meant to fill with a cushion machine but you can suck them down with a vacuum and fill them that way. It is part of the trade. Rose might win this one buddy. Don't they usually?
I hope this has some info that you can use.
https://youtu.be/p0TX3WfOZGI?t=406
I've only done two rebuilds and the suction on my vacuum worked well.
gene
Buckminster was the first thing to come to mind.
Other thought I had - latex. Natural too.
Many of the older sofas were designed for Marshall units, and foam cushions just won't lay right.
I was always apprehensive about doing them. But they always seem to work out way easier than I expected. Like you, I worried about bunching. But for whatever reason, it just doesn't seem to happen. I bring the zipper around the sides, and wrap the whole unit with black bottom to make stuffing easy. I really don't have to suck it down.
However....... You said the customer is way in to natural. Well she won't get it from me. I use a cotton/poly blend.
I would be interested to know the comfort of that. I am guessing being springs that it is more comfortable than poly foam.
Does anyone know if the compressing tool that Buckminster uses is a custom built piece?
Quote from: 65Buick on March 13, 2018, 08:55:34 am
Does anyone know if the compressing tool that Buckminster uses is a custom built piece?
It's called a Lochner cushion stuffer. In the old days before foam became the cushion of choice, most all shops had a Lochner. They're great for stuffing cotton wrapped Marshall units, but don't work too well on today's thick foam cores.
I had one back in the 80's. It had worn parts that were no longer in production. When I moved, I sat it out by the curb.
Then last year, I came to work one morning to find one sitting in front of my shop. Someone nearby was clearing out an old building, and thought I might want it. I've used it a few times on spring unit cushions. But since I do 99% foam nowadays, I really can't justify the enormous space it occupies. If you want it, come get it.
(https://s5.postimg.org/r4koezn0j/43_C9_BE83-39_F2-4_BA1-_A1_B2-4_FFA109_CA66_F.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/r4koezn0j/)
Thanks all this gives me some ideas. Here is the loveseat. We are getting ready to do it Friday. The cushions are somewhat deformed but I think they can be saved. They feel good to sit on. My biggest concern is they look strained.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6DfhuwXlQAwK3rfm2
I unstuffed one and found this. Obviously these have been worked on before. Someone may have added extra batting. Pretty stained and lumpy. And yes the unit is wrapped with dacron.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gak5da2CXp5uUcWj1
This is as far as I wanted to go for fear I would cause a big rats nest. The marshal unit looks better than expected but of course we're only looking at one side.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jEdo5F7zPuDHT4xL2
The one reason I am considering salvaging the padding on this cushion is the customer is concerned about toxic off gassing. And even though Dacron is a man made product that off gasses, I think the cushion is old enough to have finished that process. I'm just not sure if its going to be a big lumpy mess.
We are getting ready to do two camel back sofas for her sister who is also concerned about toxic fumes. She is considering latex. I will tell you what Rose found later.
So here is another question. Does the white cotton used in upholstery off gas toxic fumes? Is white cotton 100% cotton or is something mixed in with it? Its bleached, right? I could call my supplier but I doubt he would know.
The stuff I use is a cotton/poly blend. I wouldn't even know where to get 100% felted cotton anymore.
(https://s5.postimg.org/g2k6u8kvn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/g2k6u8kvn/)
This photo is one of two sofas we are getting ready to do for the sister. She too is into all natural. This all natural stuff sounds like a good idea to me. We try to eat healthy and organic as much as possible. We buy bottled water because the water in High Springs sucks. Rose cooks with coconut oil and we use non toxic soap and tooth past. On the other hand we handle plenty of toxic supplies in our daily work.
We are going round and round trying to find all natural or non toxic products to recover her sofas with.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/0sOToylNv35SBpSA2
We called our foam supplier, Hickory Springs, to find out about 100% natural latex foam. The best they could do is 70% latex and 30% Polyurethane. The salesman said without the poly the cushion will not lay right. They sell latex for mattresses. This means the smallest piece they will sell is 6"X60"X80". They will cut it into smaller pieces but you have to buy the whole thing. Price is $480.
Rose called around and found a place up north who said they have 100% all natural latex foam. Double the price above. But when Rose examined the spec sheet it has chemicals in it also.
These two young ladies inherited a bunch nice of antiques from their grandmother. And apparently some money too because they don't bulk at our prices. At one point Rose had her talked into HR foam, non California laws and no flame retardant. But when we went to pick it all up she said she wanted the latex. So Rose sent her the spec sheet and told her to make a decision. Everything is striped down and ready to send to the refinisher. I guess you could say it is a good learning experience. I always thought latex was 100% natural rubber. Can you buy anything these days that is non toxic?
Quote from: sofadoc on March 13, 2018, 10:50:16 am
The stuff I use is a cotton/poly blend. I wouldn't even know where to get 100% felted cotton anymore.
(https://s5.postimg.org/g2k6u8kvn/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/g2k6u8kvn/)
That looks like what I use.
So is the refinisher going to use all organic?
Good question.
Quote from: gene on March 12, 2018, 07:20:56 pm
I hope this has some info that you can use.
https://youtu.be/p0TX3WfOZGI?t=406
Don't know how I missed this. That was cool. I was surprised at how much cotton he used. The end result was awesome.
I didn't realize I'm almost out of cotton. I thought I had some in storage. 4 rolls coming Wednesday.
After watching the video I think I will throw everything out except the marshal unit. All new cotton.
Kody this is an interesting project. It is difficult to avoid petroleum products, because it is used in everything.
I believe the cotton I get from my supplier is 100%. I kind of doubt it is bleached, there's no reason to. It would be an extra cost. In any case, chlorine escapes into the air very quickly. By the time it reaches you, it would be done.
I have also checked around for latex. I don't believe my local supplier carries it because demand is too low.
In any case, the foam company advertised on this website sometimes carries remnants and extras. They are listed on the website but I would call. Of course, they are in CA where I am.
The foam company I like to use if I have more time, is foamforyou.com. I see that they have latex cushions available, not just mattress size. It is 100% natural. Dunlop is the word you're looking for there. Not 'talalay'.
By the way, sulfur is used to bond the latex, so it can have kind of a residual smell I have found.
Here is the link for that: https://foamforyou.com/latex-chair-cushion.html
It states 'low VOC' . Not all VOCs are bad for people, so I think one would have to dig a bit deeper. But it does list the primary offenders, that are not present.
Good luck, looking forward to seeing what happens here.
Thanks 65, sorry I've been out of town these last few days.
I went to your link but could not find "Not all VOCs are bad for people" If its not too much trouble I would like more info on this.
No problem, kody.
As you know, VOC means volatile organic compound (sometimes the word chemical is used.)
For good reason many of us think any 'chemical' is bad. Water is a chemical compound.
So, VOCs is really just stating that the compound is unstable, and releases into the air. Take peppermint oil. It is not toxic to humans and in many cases useful. But when the oil is allowed to react with the air, it splits apart into what we detect as an odor.
Odors are useful to us because we can tell that something is present. So if we look at one component of noxious off-gassing of PU foam, that is formaldehyde. We can smell it and it is definitely not good for humans.
Organic just means that the compound has carbon in it.
There's a lot more to this but some basics.
Started the cushions today using the video supplied by Gene. 5 layers of cotton on each side seemed excessive but I did it anyway. Rose made a muslin liner and I stuffed the first one. Very happy with the results. Still working on the finished product.
The love seat is finished and ready for delivery.
5 layers of cotton on the bottom and 5 layers of cotton on the top.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9hKFUao5b0QtulS53
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ig0T5MMyCpS8wESj2
At this point I was wondering how I was going to get all that into Roses muslin liner. The shrink wrap was an option but Sofas suggestion to just stuff it kept playing in my mind. So I hand sewed the top layer of cotton to the bottom layer of cotton and ended up with this.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wSd61G4exarQwWE12
Then I stuffed it into the liner and it went in pretty easy.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/D6Uf7PzoAAGLFJUG2
Rose sewed the casings today and I finished it off. Its ready for delivery tomorrow.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FbiDHpvcvK1B8iuN2
Nice job Kody, This is when I really miss my machine.
Looks great Kody. Did you test sit on it?
Thanks for sharing.
I sat on it and it felt great. I still can't believe all that cotton fit in that cushion. BTW 65, thanks for the off gassing info. I never thought of it that way.
Delivered the love seat this morning and the customer was pleased.
Picked up a large Pottery Barn sofa while we were there. It should be a simple fabric off, fabric on job
The refinisher delivered her sisters sofas yesterday. Painted gloss white lacquer. Rose is ordering the latex now.
Thank you for everyone's helpful advice.
It doesn't get better than that Kody. Did you install zippers or sew it closed like in Gene's video ?
SA
Great work KodyD. It is interesting how much cotton it takes.
SteveA: That wasn't my video. I just posted it. Thanks for the compliment though. I've got about 20 more years of practice before I'm as good as Buck on authentic antique restoration upholstery. If you're interested, he's got a video on his youtube channel where he upholsters a chair that has a metal frame. Everything needs to be tied to the frame. That's a pain in the wrist.
gene
Quote from: SteveA on April 04, 2018, 05:02:12 am
It doesn't get better than that Kody. Did you install zippers or sew it closed like in Gene's video ?
SA
Rose put a zipper on it like the original. The original cushion didn't have a muslin liner. We added one and Rose put a zipper on that too.
Hey Gene - sorry meant to say "a video Gene posted" I have watched Bucks videos but I hadn't seen that one. He is sympathetic to the classical ways and although I like seeing how it was done I can't say that I've tried any of his methods - well maybe one. I would sandwich the marshall units in foam with a layer of cotton and dacron - those old ways don't seem worth it to me. I also would use spray glue to sturdy those marshall units from moving and muslin like Kody did to button it up. I have used bucks technique to tie down horse hair when adding horse hair to an existing job.
I wonder if those steel cushion machines have been replaced by vacuum bags that shrink the core enough to get it into the casing then they re-inflate?
SA
Gene back in Jan I had two modern steel frame chairs to do ...the foam was ok but the perilli straps were shot. I have a heavy duty hand stapler that I used to attach one strap to another while pulling the opposite end tight. Then I used hog rings to give the strap connection more strength. I was on the last strap and while squeezing the hand stapler I ruptured a tendon in my finger. Dr. said it's trigger finger and will heal 100 % - it's been 4 months and it only feels 50 % better. Anyway I went on ebay and bought a pneumatic plier stapler for $ 25.00. an old one but it works great - you only need 40 lbs pressure and the staples are stronger than the hand stapler so no hog rings are necessary. Didn't get another job for it yet but I'm itching to use it.
SA
Steve do you have a photo of this? I can't figure out what you are taking about.
One manufacture I work for used a long jawed pneumatic stapler to attach the seat front to the spring cover. In all the years I've been recovering furniture I have never seen this method. It was rather odd.
We started the two matching sofas this week. We received the latex for the cushions. I was a bit disappointed they pieced (glued) some together. We could send it back but are too far into it to stop production now. I think it will be all right.
We also ordered 1" latex for the inside backs. I used a layer of cotton under the foam and two layers of cotton on top of the foam. It feels pretty good.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4GWUKojteBTa3LBr2
Ian this was a pair of Mid Century chairs - the seats were redone because the straps failed. We kept the original foam and slip cover since the customer didn't want the expense to change those materials. The slip cover is dark gray. I wrapped all the foam with muslin glued on to help give the foam a few more years. Only the straps on the seat had to be replaced - the stapler in the photo is the one I strained my hand using. That finger is still messed up.
SA
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi934.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad181%2FSteveA_2010%2Fth_Forg202_zpsdpjopeqa.jpg&hash=a42785e0723cb95339a1f2cc47ca1611) (http://s934.photobucket.com/user/SteveA_2010/media/Forg202_zpsdpjopeqa.jpg.html)
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi934.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad181%2FSteveA_2010%2Fth_Forg%25203_zpsia7ksv3f.jpg&hash=b5616d04a9b1c7c90932f5fe151151d2) (http://s934.photobucket.com/user/SteveA_2010/media/Forg%203_zpsia7ksv3f.jpg.html)
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi934.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad181%2FSteveA_2010%2Fth_Forg%25201_zpsbbwczhg0.jpg&hash=0bc71c8e811b70c30b54f5e243765838) (http://s934.photobucket.com/user/SteveA_2010/media/Forg%201_zpsbbwczhg0.jpg.html)
Kody - looks good. Did you get the latex for a reasonable price?
And Steve- I understand now. Yeah I can see how that would be hard on the hands. I don't think I've seen mid century chairs quite like this before.
Kody a customer asked me for an estimate on a wing chair recover. I picked up the cushion and the label said Ladd Furniture Inc. I hoped it was yours but it said North Carolina.
Your name has ties to the Furniture trade in the south ?
SA
Steve, Ladd Furniture Inc use to be a big conglomerate made up of a many of furniture brands. In the 80"s the furniture industry was going crazy. The industry was booming and big corporations were buying up as many companies as they could afford. Ladd Furniture was one. They are not as big now as they were then.
When we opened our first shop in Hickory NC we would sometimes get their mail. And sometimes when we placed a supply order they would ask if it should be billed to Ladd Furniture Inc.
Ladd is my Grandmother's madden name. Her fathers name was Edwin Ladd. Edwin Ladd is also my first and middle name. The Ladd's from my heritage are from New York and Michigan. I know of no close relations to the Ladd Furniture Company but you never know. A google serch turns up another Ladd Upholstery in Ladd Indiana.
Mr 65, we paid around $1100 for six pieces of latex. 26" X 30". On top of that we will add some for cutting to size and for wrapping them with cotton and for the time it took to order them. These are expensive cushions. At one point we had the customer talked into HR foam with no flame retardants added. She opted for the latex. I stuffed them into the muslin liners yesterday and they feel fantastic.
Kody - wow that is expensive. I didn't know they cost quite that much.
It is less expensive if you get latex with polyurethane added. And this is what most suppliers offer. Polyurethane also helps to stabilize the latex to help get a more consistent density. Apparently each batch of 100% latex comes out different. What you see is what you get. The customer did her own study and concluded 100% latex is what she wanted. It was hard to find 100% latex. One company said theirs was but when Rose studied the specs, chemicals were added. Its been a real learning experience.
Yes. I remember from my own studies when we decided to forego the conventional inner-spring mattress and go for a 100% latex mattress. As always, lots of misinformation and deviation tactics.
I did not know that each batch came out differently though.
We do really like our mattress. It is 3, 3" slabs. Vac packed, shipped, then you put it together. It is very comfortable. Strangely though is does still have a rubber smell.
Quote from: 65Buick on April 17, 2018, 05:35:40 pm
I did not know that each batch came out differently though.
How much difference from batch to batch I do not know. Probably not enough to make a big difference.
After handling the latex the smell stayed on my hands all day. Rose wants to buy latex pillows but I'm not sure I could stand the smell while sleeping. Its not a bad smell but not a pleasant one either.
We delivered two sofas with new latex foam today. When I opened the van door she let out a gasp with a little ahhh. That usually means one of two things. She was either extremely excited or extremely disappointed. I'm pretty sure it was the former.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YTzmUKb1xYPmQ5Y22
Great work Kodydog! Breath taking! Sure she would have liked it!
Noticed how you treated the side bottom cushions where they fit the rear inside arm (curved).
Are these the cushions Rose said would work in the beginning?
One question about the double cord over the staples: I assume you made the double welt but did
you glue or staple on? Probably glued?
That sofa with the white frame color looks very slick but would also look beautiful also in a near white
fabric (hints of color and possibly pattern in it - but kept almost light as the wood.
I like it - BTW you and Rose will always have business, given reasonable prices, which I gather you do.
Doyle
Quote from: baileyuph on April 20, 2018, 06:40:01 pm
Are these the cushions Rose said would work in the beginning?
This has been a long post and a long job starting back in January. We are doing work for two sisters. They are both (I'm guessing) in their 20. I think the cushions you refer to is the first job we did. It was a love seat with marshal springs wrapped with cotton. That job, thanks to the help of the folks on the forum, came out better than expected. She was pleased. Now we are starting a sofa for the same sister. :)
Quote from: baileyuph on April 20, 2018, 06:40:01 pm
One question about the double cord over the staples: I assume you made the double welt but did
you glue or staple on? Probably glued?
I learned upholstery working in a factory building office furniture. A lot of that furniture used single welt glued into channels. I never worked in a factory that used double welt. When I started my own business I automatically glued all of my double cording. That's how I've always done it.
The one thing that irks me about double welt is how do you join the two ends. I first tried folding the loose fabric under and then butting them together. I now cut the ends, leaving them raw, and glue them together. I'm really not satisfied with either method.
double welt at corners:
Yep, sometimes it seems to look all right then there are the times of angst.
Factories often (at 90 degree corners) will bend the uncut welt and glue it in. Just depends, how
much at a corner is exposed when I am or not satisfied.
Seems, easier for factories. Actually double welt fabrication (how it is done - sewn, etc.) is not always
the same experience for me. Lot's of varying techniques can apply there. I think I have seen factories,
at a 90 degree turn, cut the welt about half way through on a 45 degree before gluing or stapling. Some looked fine, some
just ok. When I duplicate this technique, some is fine and some just ok.
Sewing double welt, for me, largely depends on welt core size, fabric weight, and of course my
welt foot size. I have several sizes, sometimes am able to sew it in one pass but to keep it consistent
other times I make two passes with the seaming.
Yes, the single glue in welt is easier to handle but not always just "easy". Guess that is why we
get paid so much - wink.
So many variables -
Doyle
I'm sure you were holding your breath as well - I know I'd be thinking if there is one spot or nick anywhere on this job I'm going to kill someone.
Those sofas are of the highest quality restoration anyone could ask for. Did they consider a light glaze to contrast the white paint.
I can't do the double welt in one shot. I sew up long stands of the single welt taking care to 45 the joints than I sew the strands together. I could see the time saver the other way. I got to look for a video on Boob Tube for me to watch
SA
Quote from: SteveA on April 21, 2018, 07:52:51 am
I'm sure you were holding your breath as well - I know I'd be thinking if there is one spot or nick anywhere on this job I'm going to kill someone.
While I was working on it I managed to put a few nicks in the finish. Some nicks showed up I swore I did not do. The refinisher gave me several ounces of touch up paint. Just a little dab and a quick touch did the trick. The lacquer paint dried in 30 seconds.
The customers boyfriend was there to help me carry the pieces into the house. The door to the porch was very narrow and on the second sofa he bumped the door frame. When we set it down he bent over to look at the damage. This gave me an opportunity to show him how to touch it up.