Yesterday a fellow calls and wants the foam replaced on his 6 dinning chairs. The fabric is fine but the foam is too soft. Can I come look at them right now? So I told him let me give you an estimate first. $35 to $45 to take the fabric off and put it back on and $10 each for 1-1/2" foam each chair. He says wait a minute, why are you taking the fabric off? I told him its the only way to get to the foam. He says oh just forget about it, thank you. I'm glad I didn't waste time to go look at them.
Today a guy calls with 6 parsons chairs with 18" skirt and covered legs. He has foam and fabric. His sister started doing them but after stripping the second one she gave up and they sat for a year. They live right around the corner from me so I ran over to give an estimate. Nice people, we talked a while and I gave them my price. They said lets do it, I got the deposit and we loaded them into my van. The fabric looked short so when I got back to the shop I started measuring the chairs. The phone rings and its the guy. His wife called around and and found two upholsterers who beat my price by half.
On the way back to their house I had a chance to think about what I would say. I wasn't mad but wanted to defend myself and educate a little.
When we met she asked if there was any way I could go down on my price.
The first thing I said, when it comes to craftsmanship you get what you pay for. I told them I admit I'm not the cheapest but I'm not the most expensive either. But my quality is unmatched by anyone in this area.
He told me the names of the other upholsterers, and I was familiar with both. I don't like to bad mouth anybody but their is one guy in town who does really crappy work. I've repaired many of his jobs. And I told them this. I told them they will not be happy with his work.
I met the other upholsterer's husband once. He told me she only does cars. She doesn't like furniture because its too hard. I told them that.
I usually don't discuss my wages but felt I needed to explain my estimate. I told them my shop rate is $30 an hour. And compared to other technical type jobs that's really fair. I gave them a $5 break because they had 6 chairs. I told them these are 12 hour chairs. Now if the other upholsterer is beating my price by half that means her shop rate is $12 an hour. Take out over head and shes only making $10 an hour. I told them she must be really fast or shes taking short cuts. I told them If they really wanted to compare prices call Smiths Upholstery (knowing their prices are higher than mine) Then I started giving references but by this time the wife was already changing her mind.
The husband told me they found new Parsons chairs for only $50 more than my price. He thought that was a high quality chair. So I had to go into the whole spiel about the cheap stuff coming out of china. I went over to one of their stripped chairs and pointed out all the details that made these chairs worth recovering. Corner blocks, springs, hardwood frames etc.
I told her look, I'm not trying to pressure you, lets unload the van and you can sleep on it. She was very apologetic and I feel we parted on a good note. She has a nice house and keeps it super tidy. She likes nice stuff. I don't know if they will call back. I'm thinking they'll skip the whole project altogether.
Can you think of any other profession where the customer will blatantly ask you to cut your price in half?
I don't know about you guys. But I've gotten estimates from professionals before. Carpenters, roofers, plumbers, etc. And sometimes, their estimate was a lot more than I was expecting to pay. When that occurred, I simply said "Thank you, I'll let you know." I have never said "Yeah, go ahead and do it", and then called them back 10 minutes later to say "WHOA! Hold on a minute!"
When a customer questions my prices, I no longer even try to defend myself. All they get from me, is a shrug of the shoulders.
The customer's sister tried to do it herself. So they think anybody can do it. Then when they called around and found someone who was willing to do it for half as much, that SHOULD'VE sent up a red flag telling them that they couldn't possibly be getting equal quality estimates.
But again, many people don't even consider upholstery a skilled trade. They think "I'd do it myself, but I don't have time". "I'll just pay some slack-jawed upholsterer minimum wage to do it".
Of course, the REAL root of the problem, is the insanely cheap prices for new furniture that customers use as a basis for evaluating OUR rates.
Yes I hear the same thing, and always have. This is the main reason I weed people out with a basic phone or email estimate before I even waist my time to go see the furniture. It gives them an idea and then they can either say OK or I'll let you know kind of response. It has come to this for many reasons and you need to be able to weed out the tire kickers. There are many of them that think that way.
Yes, weed them out as you are saying.
Can you think of any other profession where the customer will blatantly ask you to cut your price in half?
I don't know about you guys. But I've gotten estimates from professionals before. Carpenters, roofers, plumbers, etc.
This one is natural to understand because customers can't go to Walmart and get a cheaper whatever.
A lot of work upholsters do can be purchased new and we know about that and the new prices these days.
Bottom line is price that the consumer can compare. If it isn't easy to compare, then they will have to make decisions without a web site, a cheapest store item for labor, etc.
Mature consumers basically are smart enough to know how to shop which usually means other things count in the best decision making process.
Doyle
Hello? Can you do some work for me? Yes? Great! Will I have to pay you for your work? Yes!!! Well then, forget it. :)
On the folks with the parsons chairs: If you had charged a separate pick up and delivery fee you would have at least gotten something from that encounter. My business adviser says I am in the trucking business if I pick up and deliver. I should be getting paid for it.
And I do commend you for putting some time into not burning a bridge with those folks.
What I find interesting is that if they use another upholsterer who is cheaper, and that upholsterer does a shi$$y job, they will probably want you to do their next upholstery project but at the cheaper upholsterers' price level.
Can I get your quality work at a Walmart price?
gene
Thankfully I get about 1 or 2 people who question my prices or want a discount. My prices are what they are. Pay them or go elsewhere as I could give a rats ass about what you think my product is worth. I was once in desperate need of business years ago and cut my prices but not anymore. I was also inexperienced and felt my work wasn't worth what others were charging. But in your case
Ed your a master at your trade and you shouldn't be working for peanuts. Command the price your worthy of and if people do not want to pay it then tell them to piss off.
I am so busy we can afford to kick a few people down the road. I will say this that my experience has been that when a potential customer is purely focused on price they are also a royal pain in the butt to deal with once you get the order so I save myself headaches by sending them elsewhere. I revel in the fact knowing one of my competitors is going to have to work twice as hard to please the jerk and even then will fall short of their expectations while at the same time getting paid less.
I no longer defend my products. I know they are the best in country and the majority of our customers know this which is why they come to us and constantly refer us to other bus owners. This isn't bragging as our work is just like other canvas shops. But we are the only ones who use high end materials, thread, double stitched perimeters, etc. That is what separates us from the rest.
Ed, I think your comment was spot on and I have said that in the past " There is a reason why the other company is cheaper ". That is all I say and leave it at that. It plants a big seed of doubt in their minds in regards to the others who you compete against and also makes them start questioning what type of work they may get.
I just do not understand people now days and why they feel the need to dig and beat up business owners over prices. I am in the process of getting bid's right now for several remodeling projects at home. My big concern is not price but dependability and quality. It will do me no good to hire someone based on price and then have to go back and fix their screw ups.
Chris
Thanks Chris, great advice.
QuoteI just do not understand people now days and why they feel the need to dig and beat up business owners over prices.
I think this is because of the growing class envy and entitlement mentality in our society. It seems that when I was young folks who worked hard and achieved stuff in their lives were looked up to. Today we criticize CEOs for making millions of dollars a year (even though we are silent on athletes making the same kind of money). And yet it's the CEOs who are creating jobs.
Many people feel it's not fair that a business owner gets to make more money than the employees.
Just my 2 scents on the matter.
gene
Your points are appreciated Gene.
I get a menagerie of consumer types, some don't bother to ask a price while another seems to want it to the penny. The latter are not as desirable.
Interesting experience this week, did some work for a gymnastics activity that it looks like the first generation owner has stepped down and now his son holds the reigns. The experience is, the son doesn't ask a price while his parents were such penny pichers. Same business and the possible reason for the difference is; the younger guy said I am the only place he knew of who was willing to do that kind of work. Maybe that is most of the reason the price sensitivity has let up a good bit.
That work is heck, but us poor guys do what we have to do. It definitely is different work, requires long arm and heavy needles/thread, etc.
Our work sometimes isn't intuitively "tough work" to the most casual observer. Some isn't simple as it appears and can't understand why repairs/reupholstery is what it is and they also are of the mind if something/anything "new" is better.
Doyle
I'm pretty sure that if you were to poll the general public, and ask the question "What do you think a fair salary for a professional upholsterer should be?".........the consensus answer would be around $10hr.
Their calculation is based partially on the cost of a new sofa at Wild Bill's Bargain Bonanza, or whatever retail chain is nearby.
I don't know when you're kidding around Doc but the general public doesn't think upholstery labor is done for ten dollars an hour - a highly skilled trade ? - my guess is folks think around $ 25.00 / hour for a salary worker
SA
I had a guy last week who aid a good price for some canvas work but sat watching me make pattern on his boat and said he though it would be easoer but saw that im very skilled and it wasn't as easy as he though.
I also got a referral last week from a boat owner to reupholster an identical boat for a huy in the mean time the first guy was made a offer to buy his boat from a guy I Hawaii , turn s out he has 2 more boat the same and wanted 2 more tops made for the boat for the other 2 he has and they will ship with the boat he bought, I charged his a good price and he though it was a bit high though he cant find anybody there to do it , I think I shorted myself a little too. I should have asked a bit more I probably wouldn't have gotten the job but its so busy like chris. ive got more waiting
Quote from: SteveA on March 14, 2015, 12:39:46 pm
I don't know when you're kidding around Doc but the general public doesn't think upholstery labor is done for ten dollars an hour - a highly skilled trade ? - my guess is folks think around $ 25.00 / hour for a salary worker
Yeah, I'm kidding around
a little, but not much. Only a small sector of the general population even knows what an upholsterer is. And judging from what my customers
expect to pay, I can only assume that they think I'm making about 10 bucks an hour. Most of the time, when I quote them a labor price, their jaw drops through the floor.
I don't think the general public puts the upholsterer into the same category with other skilled tradesmen. This public perception can certainly vary by region. But that's the vibe I get around here.
There was an upholsterer in town. His lived in a single wide trailer house. He lived in the back and his shop was in the front. The best I could figure he made about $10 an hour. The folks around here thought he was just the greatest. Not so much his quality but his price. I just repaired one of his chairs and can tell the old guy didn't own a double welt foot. his double welt looks pretty sloppy. He literately worked himself to death. When he passed he had nothing. His customers started calling me and were shocked that my prices were double his. I don't want to be this guy when I'm in my 70's.
I agree with Sofa, a lot of people around here would be very surprised I make more than $10 an hour. If they knew the typical chair only takes between 12 and 16 hrs they would swear I was robing them blind.
So you haven't told us kodydog, did the customer call you back or not?
I've been very curious about it.
Virginia
Kody,
I realize as was mentioned - salaries are regional - but come on the public doesn't think a salaried upholsterer worker earns around $ 10.00 / hour and they certainly don't think a self employed upholsterer only commands $ 10.00 / hour. Are you kidding as well ? No one could stay in business at that level and do things the right way - have credit - pay taxes - health care - food - car - insurance - let me stop there ? Yes an occasional swindler may stop by looking for a budget job but don't assume the general public thinks $ 10.00 is doable in this trade.
The only way that amount ever is considered is if you do something for a friend, charity - goodwill - etc.
How can you work with fabrics that cost $ 20.00 - $ 100.00 / yard and charge $ 10.00 for labor -
SA
Just as a point of reference, when I managed a group of 17 people, we budgeted a "loaded" cost of an employee as double their salary. This included things like SSA contributions, health insurance, office rent (including utilities), computer time, education, travel expenses, etc. This did not include cost of manager's salaries, human resources, advertising, cost of sales, distribution of product and services, technical support, interest on operating capital, etc. -- all the other "burdens" that accrue on the worker bees actually spending time making products and providing services (in our case, time on the project) Even at that, we were expected to spend 6 hours a day in production and the rest of the time in ancillary activities -- communication, education, meetings, reports, etc.
My original post at the top of this page was getting wordy so I left out the final conversation. The husband had retired back to the house and the wife and I continued to talk. She said he has been to the VA for tests. Stomach problems. She thinks its cancer. Their still waiting for results.
He's a truck driver. He hauls high dollar military equipment from the east coast to Seattle. Million dollar stuff like jet engines. He has high security clearance. His Kenworth is specially fitted to preform this task. Not just a sleeper behind the cab but a camper with kitchen, bathroom and computer desk. Its nice. It is fitted with chains that automatically deploy around the tires, at the touch of a button for icy conditions. The truck is worth more than their house. He makes good money.
The wife's point was if hes sick and can no longer drive, there goes their income.
Having those chairs upholstered would have been the last thing on my mind. I don't know what they are thinking.
Originally the sister was going to recover the chairs. They went to Jo-anns and bought every thing to do it. Foam, fabric, staple puller and even black bottom. He bought a small compressor and staple gun. After striping the second chair the sister lost interest.
They also bought dacron and when I brought the chairs back I forgot to load the dacron onto the van.
So today Rose called her just to keep in touch. The first thing the customer says, Ed forgot to bring the dacron back. Rose said yes and you can come by any time and pick it up. She said she would be by today but never showed up. I still hold some hope that we will still get the job but if we don't that's OK too.
Quote from: SteveA on March 15, 2015, 02:37:04 pm
Kody,
I realize as was mentioned - salaries are regional - but come on the public doesn't think a salaried upholsterer worker earns around $ 10.00 / hour and they certainly don't think a self employed upholsterer only commands $ 10.00 / hour.
SA
Steve, I kid you not. these people told me they found two other upholsterers that beat my price by 1/2. My shop fee is normally $30 and hour. I cut them some slack because they have 6 chairs. I charged them $25 an hour. If another upholsterer is beating my price by 1/2 he's shop fee is $12.50 an hour. Take out overhead and your looking at about $10.50 an hour.
Of course the customer doesn't know how long each chair takes or how much over head an upholstery shop has but my original quote was $300 per chair. I guess they think I should do it for $150. IDK
Here is the chair. The legs get covered too. The foam also gets replaced. Their foam but I still gotta do the work. Am I way off?
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1179.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx386%2FEdwinNorthuis%2Fth_DSCN0602.jpg&hash=19e1ac5d6c7a889001c7402f730ee2ee) (http://s1179.photobucket.com/user/EdwinNorthuis/media/DSCN0602.jpg.html)
Ed:
I've had a few customers down through the years that were dealing with serious health problems, yet they focused all their attention on the furniture that I was recovering. I don't understand it, but I guess that's how they cope.
Your customer may have stomach cancer, yet they have time to worry about some Dacron. Go figure.
$300 each is a little more than I could get around here for chairs like that with a plain tailored skirt. But if you have to do that flange thing again, then $300 sounds about right. If someone offered me $150 to do those chairs, I wouldn't even roll out of bed.
But I'm convinced. If I were to do those chairs, present them to the customer, and say "Just pay me what you think they're worth", they would pay me about $300 for the two of them. Maybe less.
Because they aren't thinking about overhead, taxes, insurance, supplies, etc. All they're thinking about is that they can buy a new chair for even less at the nearest discount furniture store.
I think with all expenses an owner has - it's much more then double. But more to the point - babysitters make $ 10.00 / hour.
The public will try to diminish the value of your services but deep down they know what talent costs.
SA
Your right Steve. And I shouldn't make it sound like all my customers are like this. In fact most of my customers never bat an eye when we give a quote. We weed out most tire kickers with e-mails and phone quotes. What gets me with this couple is the deal was done, deposit in hand, van loaded and already back at the shop. Then they decided to shop around.
I don't think there is a way to weed out people like this. If I had already started the chairs the deposit would have been mine.
Consumers have their reference point on pricing and on furniture like, at issue, can be bought new for about half what an upholster in the US needs to live. Bangladesh (we have covered this subject a few times about US labor cost v/s Asian cost) labor rate to build furniture/upholstery is $3. That is not per hour, it is per day.
That directly or indirectly is the reference point of the US consumer on these two chairs or furniture in general.
The market in Texas, east coast, or are slightly different but not that much. So, what Dennis is experiencing, I see it too. So, at the end of the day, someone else will yield and do the job for this customer and maybe earn half per hour compared to the Kody reduced bid.
This story is just one of the challenges upholsters experience which makes it understandable where the trade is going. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc., do not compete as directly with Asian labor, as the Bangladesh example provided, for many reasons of geographical nature.
Today, in my business, I cannot easily get $30 per hour to work on typical furniture work. Note the word "easily", but I understand there can be variances to anything.
But, I can get more than $40 per hour working on heavy dirty tarps. One should easily catch on to what is meant by consumer references. Consumer cannot go to Walmart or? and buy a heavy fitted tarp as we see used in industry (trucks, cargo, etc.) like they can buy furniture (upholstered chairs as is the subject at issue) that is imported and produced at $3 labor per day.
Change and continues.
Doyle
Where's the "like" button for Doyle's response.
Yep, good response Doyle.
These fully upholstered straight back dining room chairs with covered legs and skirts can sometimes take as much time as a fully upholstered club chair - each.
Get a hard wood frame with those thin copper colored wire staples that they use in factories that break off instead of pulling out, and you can spend 1 to 1 1/2 hours each just taking off the old fabric. I would think that these chairs get the old fabric covered up by the 'cheap' prices, more than any other style of furniture.
I price these chairs to compete against new chairs. If someone wants to cut my prices in half they can have them.
gene