I got a request to remove and replace plastic spring clips. I have only ever seen metal ones (I assume the plastic refers to the clip and not the spring).
Has anyone ever worked with these? What do they look like? Is this them?
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.lulusoso.com%2Fupload%2F20120426%2FOKE_clip_knot_no_sag_spring_parts.jpg&hash=3d24fb2af5497de72a623602266f608f)
Is there any reason why you can't replace the plastic ones with the more traditional metal clips?
I've seen a couple styles of plastic ones on furniture before. I've never tried to order any of them.
I've only seen them a few times, and I don't remember them being the cause of the repair, but did compare them to the traditional metal clips. The dimensions are the same, so I am sure they are interchangeable.
Ethan Allen used these for a short while until they realized they failed in the field. You can certainly replace them with metal ones.
The vendor has sent replacement clips to remove and replace. I'll suggest using metal replacements.
Are the existing clips shot on with a frame staple? It seems like that's where they always fail (at the anchor point).
Hammer,
Off the subject, but I remember your signature line being "By hammer and hand all things do stand" and today, I was going through some old (1923) Audel's manuals on carpentry and there on the title page was that exact quote. I was wondering if that's where you got it from.
Rich
QuoteI was going through some old (1923) Audel's manuals on carpentry
I think Keith may have been one of the contributing writers for that 1923 manual. :o
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On the topic of plastic clips, plastic anything is so much cheaper than metal. It seems that every manufacturer is looking to replace metal parts with plastic.
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My wife buys sea salt for some unknown reason. My running joke for years used to be,
"Do you know what makes sea salt 'sea' salt? It's because it has fish pee in it."
I've changed the punch line to "It's because it has plastic in it."
gene
Quote from: gene on January 28, 2015, 06:01:58 am
............plastic anything is so much cheaper than metal.
But we're talking about metal spring clips that normally cost about 8 cents each (a factory buying in bulk can probably get them even cheaper). On the average sofa, there is around $2 worth of spring clips.
Assuming the plastic ones are at least 4 cents each, they're saving a whole buck per sofa.
"Furniture and home furnishings stores generated about 101.41 billion U.S. dollars worth of sales in 2013."
QuoteQuotethey're saving a whole buck per sofa.
When you're looking at millions of sofas and club chairs made each year, that's millions of dollars going straight to the profit line by simply switching to plastic clips. $1.00 for every sofa and 50 cents for every club chair.
And you're also putting dollars on the profit line by reducing the cost of shipping (receiving) with lesser weight plastic clips.
When volume is involved, even a penny saved is worth big bucks to the profit line.
gene
Quote from: gene on January 28, 2015, 07:37:39 am
When volume is involved, even a penny saved is worth big bucks to the profit line.
True. But if the plastic clips have a higher failure rate, then the savings is lost in warranty repair costs.
BUT...... since the clips are usually attached to cheap frames, the failure rate probably isn't any different.
I just lost my own argument.
I believe the original was from a London Livery (trade guild) "The Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths" dating back to the 13th century, motto formalized in the 1600s. I think some of the other guilds of later eras adopted it in variations. Realize that "blacksmiths" of those days did not (just) shoe horses (the job of farriers), but forged all sorts of household and industrial items.
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.slidesharecdn.com%2Flarcahprez-090709182728-phpapp02%2F95%2Fevolution-of-an-emblem-the-arm-hammer-4-728.jpg%3Fcb%3D1250562630&hash=eba8decfb144596ab987676a30847150)
(https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6111/6246787651_af60d3ec1b.jpg)
I've got the 1923 edition, too, as well as the 1947 and 1978 versions. But I think I heard it some where along the way, not in those books (way pre-Google) I asked a friend of mine who's an historically correct 19th century cabinetmaker and historian and he led me to the guilds, the apprenticeship system and the "garrett masters." All pre-industrial revolution stuff. I adopted it for my e-mail address, then later for my business name.
Quote from: Rich on January 28, 2015, 03:45:13 am
Hammer,
Off the subject, but I remember your signature line being "By hammer and hand all things do stand" and today, I was going through some old (1923) Audel's manuals on carpentry and there on the title page was that exact quote. I was wondering if that's where you got it from.
Rich
The Worshipful Company of Blacksmith's Song:The Song
In the good olden days when the gods condescended
To visit this Earth and enlighten mankind,
Amongst those who most us poor mortals befriended,
Still Vulcan, our Patron, the foremost you'll find;
When he taught us with Anvil and Hammer to mould
The Ploughshare, the Spade, and the Sickle to reap,
Had we paid for such knowledge a mountain of gold,
The purchase would still to mankind have been cheap.
To the mem'ry of Vulcan our voices we'll raise,
May he and his sons be revered thro' the land;
May they thrive root and branch, and enjoy happy days
For by Hammer and Hand all arts do stand.
Withdraw the utensils produced by our art,
And with them the best comforts of life will retreat;
Without Knives or Forks we should look mighty smart;
As with unshaven chins we sat gnawing our meat.
Withdraw but the Axe and the Saw, and the Plane,
Not a Table or Chair would be made for our use;
To the mud-hut we would soon be driven again -
The best, without us, that man's art could produce.
To the mem'ry of Vulcan our voices we'll raise,
May he and his sons be revered thro' the land;
May they thrive root and branch, and enjoy happy days
For by Hammer and Hand all arts do stand.
Still duly devoted to Love and to Beauty,
Each true Son of Vulcan will ever be found;
For Venus herself taught our Grandsire this duty,
And with all her sweet charms she his gallantry crown'd.
And still ev'ry lovely young Maiden will prove
To Vulcan's descendants most yielding and kind;
For the good Man of Metal, in matters of love,
Has always the highest regard in her mind.
To the mem'ry of Vulcan our voices we'll raise,
May he and his sons be revered thro' the land;
May they thrive root and branch, and enjoy happy days
For by Hammer and Hand all arts do stand.
Moses Kipling, Prime Warden 1828
Gene,
Now you're thinking like a Chinese factory. Doesn't last -- somebody else's problem.
Quote from: gene on January 28, 2015, 07:37:39 am
"Furniture and home furnishings stores generated about 101.41 billion U.S. dollars worth of sales in 2013."
QuoteQuotethey're saving a whole buck per sofa.
When you're looking at millions of sofas and club chairs made each year, that's millions of dollars going straight to the profit line by simply switching to plastic clips. $1.00 for every sofa and 50 cents for every club chair.
And you're also putting dollars on the profit line by reducing the cost of shipping (receiving) with lesser weight plastic clips.
When volume is involved, even a penny saved is worth big bucks to the profit line.
gene
Well, I heard back and got sent a process from the manufacturer. Don't know why they didn't send this with their original RFQ. Here's what it looks like and they just want the strip attached with screws to the bottom of the rails and have it a bit lower than original. (see the original at the top of the photo. Also note the flaky Chinese plywood frame material). The service company said they are getting a lot of failures and they're warranted for 5 years. Sounds about like the average life of a sofa, huh?
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi331.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl463%2Fbyhammerandhand%2Fplastic%2520spring%2520bars.jpg&hash=2858c1f54d3520c320b663796cf7c9fa)
I guess they want you to attach from the bottom to save labor time?
This goes back to what I said earlier. The clips need only be as good as the frame they're attaching to. Might as well be plastic. Metal clips would probably be overkill.
Many moons ago, the primary purpose for a Company's Purchasing Department was to buy stuff for the company.
Today Purchasing Departments are seen as Profit Centers. Constantly reducing costs is their primary purpose for existing. They still buy stuff, but that's not their primary function. They need to buy stuff cheaper this year than last year.
It is amazing the analysis that can go into switching to a cheaper plastic part: engineering, manufacturing, marketing, sales, shipping, receiving, accounting.
And then there are companies that make the switch with only input from accounting and they keep their fingers crossed that the cost of problems generated by the switch will be less than the amount saved.
Accounting gets credit for saving the company money but it costs other departments more money with the problems that it causes and those other departments, such as sales and customer service, get blamed for the problems. LOL
I think sofaD is talking about:
Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[2] The rationale behind the strategy is to generate long-term sales volume by reducing the time between repeat purchases (referred to as "shortening the replacement cycle"). Wikipedia
gene
Sorry to split this into two threads, but one more thought-that song must come from a time when a skilled craftsman's abilities were held in high regard. Unlike today.
Thanks,
Rich
Gene:
I'm currently doing sub-work for a factory that builds seating for department store dressing rooms.
Their "purchasing agent" always wants a volume price. On one particular job, I priced it so that if they order 10 or more, they get a small discount per piece. Basically, they would get 10 for the price of 9.
Well, this agent obviously missed his calling in life. He always orders 9. Fine with me.
Rich:
We can't do a modern-day song, because we don't have a word that rhymes with obsolescence.
Is it to be funny, or just for the money? I cant find the essence in obsolescence!!
QuoteWe can't do a modern-day song, because we don't have a word that rhymes with obsolescence.
Here ya go, sofaD. Taken from my favorite web site, wordhippo.com
essence, quintessence, senescence, acquiescence, adolescence, coalescence, convalescence, evanescence, luminescence, phosphorescence.
gene
I would try to make a song out of those words. But I just don't have enough effervescence.