A grand jury did their best - now far from peaceful in the big cities. Gathering crowds - violence - looting won't change the decision. The loss of property and the feeling of disorder is for another time in history - not now !
The small businesses burning - no words - just a disgrace -
SA
I don't see how officer Wilson can ever lead a normal life again.
Nothing will bring back the life of Mike Smith. His parents will grieve forever, wondering what he might have become had his life not been taken prematurely.
Virginia
Things that bother me about Ferguson, Stand Your Ground in Florida and the latest in Cleveland of a 12 year old boy carrying what was an obvious toy gun. All three were black children or young men. In all three instances, kill shots were applied instead of stopping in your tracks. Two of the three were police officers. When did our officers switch to kill shots instead of disabling the suspects? It makes me darn sure never want to be stopped for anything. Knowing that I have close to a double in Grand Island, I hope that she is a good law obeying citizen ; )
As to Mike Brown's parents, as I posted above they will live for the rest of their lives grieving the loss of their child. That kind of pain you do not understand unless you have lost a child. That pain is something that I would not wish on anyone, EVER.
I wish that what we would learn from this is that our police officers go back to shooting to disable the suspect and not use kill shots unless it is a dire situation. There are conflicting reports about Ferguson and that would tell me that a disable shot would have been warranted. I'm sure the Brown's would rather be visiting their son in prison than in a cemetery.
Virginia
REALLY? If someone pulled this out on you, would you bet your life that it was a toy gun? You have .3 seconds to decide.
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Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on November 25, 2014, 07:50:02 am
Things that bother me about Ferguson, Stand Your Ground in Florida and the latest in Cleveland of a 12 year old boy carrying what was an obvious toy gun.
Virginia
Quote from: byhammerandhand on November 25, 2014, 04:43:48 pm
REALLY? If someone pulled this out on you, would you bet your life that it was a toy gun? You have .3 seconds to decide.
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Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on November 25, 2014, 07:50:02 am
Things that bother me about Ferguson, Stand Your Ground in Florida and the latest in Cleveland of a 12 year old boy carrying what was an obvious toy gun.
Virginia
Article that I read said that the dispatcher had radio'd that the child was carrying a toy gun and the gun was not pointed at the officer. He saw the child with the toy gun and shot to kill. In non-threatening situations (like the gun not being pointed at the police officer's head), I thought there were ways to shoot where the person would not be killed and the situation would be resolved.
As for your picture, I'm not a trained professional. The only weapon I can identify is my good ole M-16 I learned to shoot with in Basic Training. I couldn't identify anything and would not claim to know the difference between a toy and a real weapon. I also would not expect the officer to except that he was radio'd with that information.
Virginia
Virginia, did the article say that Ohio has a law that all toys guns must have an orange cap at the end of the barrel?
Did the article say that the 12 year old had broken off the orange cap?
Did the article say that the police told the 12 year old to put his hands up and instead of obeying the police he pulled the gun out of his pants waste band?
Did the article say that the entire episode in on video?
Not to worry:
Ohio has a liberal s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-t Democrat African American state senator who is trying to pass legislation requiring more parts of a toy gun to be orange, rather than just the cap at the end of the barrel. This awesome legislation won't save lives, but it will increase the sale, or stealing, of black duct tape for those with toy guns and the sale, or stealing, of orange paint for those with real guns.
Symbolism over substance. DO NOT hold people accountable for their own actions. How's that working out in Ferguson, MO these days?
----------------------------------------
"If you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground," warns Officer Sunil Dutta of the Los Angeles Police Department, "just do what I tell you."
This is my hero!!! Not Rodney King, not Trevon Martin, not Michael Brown.
Office Sunil Dutta continues: "Don't argue with me, don't call me names, don't tell me that I can't stop you, don't say I'm a racist pig, don't threaten that you'll sue me and take away my badge. Don't scream at me that you pay my salary, and don't even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?"
gene
One of the closing comments on a talk show yesterday talked about how people should not be shot for sassing off to the piece, walking in the middle of the road, etc. Really? The police office just shot this kid because he sassed? I think not.
I think the prosecutor, in his opening remarks, talked about the partial truths, rumor, innuendo, and hearsay. And the media only gets it partially right and tells the part of the story they want everyone to hear.
A few years ago in town, there was a 14 year old who had stolen a car. The police caught up with him at a convenience store. The policeman tried to remove the keys, but the kid took off. In the process, the policeman got his arm stuck and was dragged down the street, ultimately to his death. It was impressionable to me because the internment was in the cemetery was across the street from the office building in which I worked. There were police and firefighters from all over the state there in the procession. Sheriff's pipe and drum core played the dirge.
If I sit and listen to all the Michael Brown supporters give their account of the incident, I'm ready to hang Officer Wilson from the highest tree.
If I sit and listen to Officer Wilson give his account, I'm ready to exonerate him completely.
The only people that are qualified to render a fully informed decision are the people that were on the grand jury. They did so in the form of a 100 page report that took nearly 2 months. If the grand jury didn't find enough credible evidence to return an indictment, there's no reason to think that a jury trial wouldn't have ended the same way.
Indicting Officer Wilson would've been the easy decision. There wouldn't have been any violent protests. No fires. No looting. Just a few psychologists and legal experts discussing it ad nauseam on CNN 14 hours a day for 2-3 weeks until a new, better story came along.
I am going to say this and then shut up.
This " Kid " was 300 lbs and 6'4. I just watched a video of him being confronted by a store owner
who caught him stealing cigars ( can we say blunts ). He shoved the store owner, exchanged some words and walked out. As the store owner went out after him he turned and started back at the owner.
His buddies must have said something to him because he turned and walked out. If I was struggling with someone this big I would probably shoot him too to keep from him pounding me to death. I could have no way won a fight with him as he is HUGE.
Chris
Gene, cannot answer any of those questions.
I do know that Cleveland, in its infinite wisdom, had two rookie officers riding together. IMO that is probably the biggest problem. The training officer may have been able to diffuse the situation. That is supposition and we will never know if it would have made a difference.
I would not want to be a police officer in today's environment. I do not envy them, it is not an easy task.
I read at breakfast that Ofc. Wilson testified that Brown was climbing in through his car window and that they were wrestling for the gun. He also testified that he pulled the trigger twice and the gun didn't fire. All of this is very different from the early reports that Brown had his hands up in the "surrender" position. Another of those situations that we will NEVER know what actually happened.
Hastings, NE several weeks before Brown was killed purchased the video cameras that officers wear on their person. I wish that every police department would make them mandatory. IMO it would cut down on frivolous law suits. Police Captain said that while they do not tell 100% of the story, they tell a significant tale and I agree with him whole heartedly.
If what Wilson said is true, he was absolutely justified in the shooting of Brown. But why is there that discrepancy with witnesses who also testified before the GJ?
I don't like the label of bleeding heart liberal in conjunction with myself but I do find it troubling that here are three instances of black teenagers/children being shot by law professionals and the Florida civilian. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall any similar stories involving white teenagers. I know a lot of white teenagers around here and I can easily see some of them in situations where the outcome could be similar to the above instances. Is it possible that white ruffians, for lack of a better word, are handled differently? I don't know and am not accusing, just asking a question.
Again, I would not want to be a police officer and in my opinion they are not paid enough money. But, I find the statistics with black teenagers troubling and the lack of statistics on white teenagers even more troubling. I don't want to start hearing about white teenagers being shot but if there is a different "protocol", I would like to see that changed. I know for a fact that some white teenagers are very mouthy and have very threatening demeanors. In some instances, worse than any black "gang banger" because they feel they have to "prove themselves" which is stupid IMO.
Virginia
Do we want to listen to the facts or do we want to listen to the agenda driven media.
The St. Lewis Grand Jury includes 3 African Americans. Robert McCullem the prosecutor, a democrat stated, "The duty of the Grand Jury is to separate fact from fiction." After interviewing 60 witnesses and 70 hrs. of testimony they found no probable cause.
Officer Wilson's testimony was supported by the most reliable accounts. African American eye witnesses who were in the vicinity. His testimony was also supported by 3 autopsies. All African American witnesses who testified said when officer Wilson attempted to get out of the car brown slammed the door shut. Brown then struggled inside the car and attempted to take Officer Wilson's weapon. Brown then leaves, runs. And Officer Wilson pursues, chases but then Michel Brown turns and charged Wilson with his head down like a football player. This all took place in less than 1-1/2 mins.
Co-conspirator Damian Johnson first stated Brown was shot in the back with his hands in the air. But when the autopsy proved this false his story changed.
The facts for many never mattered from the beginning. For Officer Wilson there was no assumption of innocence until guilt is proven. The fact that an innocent man was not gunned down in cold, racial motivated blood, that doesn't matter.
Today the New York Times published the address of Officer Wilson. No his life will never be the same.
Wilson's address should NOT have been published.
Brown committed a crime.
The only thing the storekeeper should have done is to call 911. He started after Brown and Brown made threatening gestures.
I do not find all of Wilson's testimony credible. He was Mr. Nice guy. I politely asked the two gentleman to get out of the middle of the street, to walk on the sidewalk. I worked for Lincoln Ne Police Department. Police officers do not talk like that for a reason. You have to be on the upper hand always so you talk tough on purpose. I see it as "you two dirt bags need to get your @sses out of traffic and onto the sidewalks, pronto".
Wilson was allowed to leave the scene of the shooting, he drove his police vehicle back to headquarters, was allowed to go into the restroom and wash his hands which had Brown's blood on them before pictures were taken and checked his own hand gun into evidence. Never should this have happened. Protocol is to impound vehicle, escort Wilson to station, photos taken head to toe, clothing and weapon tagged into evidence by another officer. When there are racial overtones and when a police involved shooting results in a death, it is imperative that the system be followed. If this case goes to civil court, A LOT will be made about Wilson leaving the scene in his squad car. I don't know if it will be enough to result in a verdict against him but it will be looked at under a microscope guaranteed.
I cannot say what I would have done in Wilson's place. I do not have the same training and years of experience that he has. Again, perhaps the most important thing to remember is that Brown started the chain of events by stealing a pack of cigarellos. None of the rest would have happened had the first link not been put into place. Wilson would have gone a different route.
I still don't like the fact that I cannot think of one case of a white young man being shot by a police officer in similar circumstances and I guarantee that you could find similar cases (stealing a pack of cigs) and mouthing off to a police officer. We live catty corner from a ratty flea bag hotel that sees police cars several times a week and I've heard all races mouthing off to the police officers. So far, GI has not had an officer involved shooting result in a death.
I have no sympathy for the causes of the officer involved shooting. I would rather see a shoot to wound rather than shoot to kill. That is all. I do support the police and would much rather live in a society with police than without. I am also old enough to remember the many instances of "dirty cops" and have seen more than enough cases of excessive use of force. I just will always go back to disarm the situation IF POSSIBLE rather than kill shots. Wilson fired 12 rounds so I have to wonder if Brown could have been stopped without firing all 12. I think that is what bothers some of the protestors. Many of the protestors just want an excuse to loot and burn and that is a sad reflection of our society but the thinking protestors are bothered by the number of shots fired.
No happy endings to this story. Wilson was always live with his actions (I'm not implying guilt, just know from the TV crime shows, even on "good shoots", there is a certain amount of angst that goes with it and thus police psychologists trained to deal with these feelings). I don't think any rational being wants to kill and even if you kill to save your life, there can be second guessing and if only type thinking. Brown is still dead and now there is a certain amount of hero worship and that is also not good.
I would be happier if I would hear less of the heroism of Mike Brown and an admittance from the hero worshippers that all of this happened because he was a thief. I'm also not so happy with the "support our police no matter what" attitude that I've seen on some television stations. That is dangerous in itself.
Too long of a rant. Thanks to those who could stand to read the entire posting.
Virginia
QuoteI would rather see a shoot to wound rather than shoot to kill. That is all.
I am not a police officer either, but from what I understand, and it seems plausible to me, when a suspect is in a high state of anxiety and has already proven himself to be a criminal AND has assaulted the officer and now is running at him, the ONLY sensible thing to do is shoot to kill. Consider also the state of mind of an officer who had just struggled with the perpetrator and now wonders if he'll survive this experience and shooting to wound is an extremely risky proposition, one which I don't think any officer is ever told in training to consider. If he had, however and had been killed by Brown, we would be not even be having this discussion, because you can bet none of us would have heard about it.
If there is animosity in this country by black people about being hassled by the police, I think it's unfortunate that the hucksters picked this case to bring it to light because it's doing more to divide than anything else.
This has no aspects of a race incident that I can see, it is a police officer and a criminal and if Brown was a white person, the officer would have had to act the same way.
Rich
The only thing unusual about this is the publicity it received. Who even heard about the elderly retiree who was recently murdered by the Key west police department? There is no justice or accountability for police in this country and its getting worse all the time. A visiting police officer from another state recorded this encounter and said "they murdered him". The prosecutor who investigated this and claimed that "appropriate force" was used had close ties to the Key West Police dept. This is worse than a knee jerk shooting of a gun. They tortured this guy in plain sight of the public after he did what he was instructed and passively laid face down in the sand. Wheres the national outrage here? After the incident people who were recording the scene were hunted and harrassed.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/deadline-miami/2014/02/autopsy-of-man-who-died-after-key-west-arrest-shows-10-cracked-ribs.html
http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/why-did-the-police-shooting-of-michael-brown-receive-national?overrideMobileRedirect=1
People from key west talking about the murder:
Charles John Eimers, the 61 yr old Michigan man that was murdered by The Key West Police Dept, on the beach on Thanksgiving Morning was my Brother. This whole situation sickens me, not only for my Brother, but also his four grieving children. He was a retired General Motors guy who LOVED the SUN and BEACH and the OCEAN. He did not have a mean or violent bone in his body and was clearly murdered by the KWPD in broad daylight in view of MANY bystanders. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, don't let a corrupt police department brush this under the rug. They say he was resisting, which is clearly contrary to the video, but if your face, mouth and throat were caked with sand and you had ten broken ribs, wouldn;t you be struggling to breathe. MY GOD, PLEASE LET HIS KIDS AND HID GRANDKIDS AND HIS FAMILY have some justice and some closure from this heinous act.
2 years ago I was beaten nearly to death by bouncers and cops at dirty harrys bar. I spent time in the hospital, and needless to say the trama I took to the head still effects my vision to this day. I was pepper sparayed twice and tased twice. I had bruises all over my body, and when I woke up, I was lying on a jail room floor feeling like a mack truck ran me over. Really didnt remember that much of the incident. As I sat there, I began to remember that I had questioned my bill. Not the amount, but rather I stated I had already paid the bill. My wife was waiting in the bathroom line which took about 20min. I knew some people there that said they saw me having a heated discussion with the manager. Needless to say a big bouncer grabbed me from behind and when I tried to resist, because of my concerns for my wife, they carried me into the ally. I dont remember much from that point other than being tased over and over until I soiled myself! Everything went black. When I woke, I was lying face down naked on a jail room cell floor., I had staples in my head, and felt horrible. Within a few hours i was in front of a judge being charged with 3 counts of "NON-Violent Battery" A gentleman we ran into after i was released, said the police officer picked me up and threw me into the wall, while i was handcuffed. In the end, I had no real witnesses to step up. The reason I had a case against all of them was that I had
paid my bill like I had argued, and my bank showed a double charge. Too bad I didnt have any witnesses!
I used to live in Key West; 14 years. I moved only 6 weeks ago. from what I have seen and been involved in, the KWPD cops will lie about anything; they will lie about everything. small stuff; big stuff -- doesn't matter, they lie. and the local judges go along with this stuff. The whole system in Key West is rotten beyond belief. Back in 1996 a cop wrote me 2 tickets while I was on a bicycle. we went to court; he lied. it only took me 4+ years to prove it; he was later made to resign. In the Eimers case, I believe it is plain the cops lied in their reports. The city commission is to blame about this because they set the tone for the enforcement against anyone they don't like or they believe is homeless. The cops of Key West KILLED Mr. Eimers!
My advise is to stay away from key west. I was a victim of their abuse. I was held at gunpoint by one officer while the other officer robbed my boat of anything of value he could find. It was just me alone with no witnesses. Theres no place to turn. No one trustworthy to report it to without being in actual danger for my life. absolutely outraged!!!!!
How about this one, that was a real gun painted to look like a toy gun.
http://wvxu.org/post/deputies-find-real-gun-painted-look-toy
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Quote from: byhammerandhand on November 25, 2014, 04:43:48 pm
REALLY? If someone pulled this out on you, would you bet your life that it was a toy gun? You have .3 seconds to decide.
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FUS%2FWEWS_ohio_shooting_2_jtm_141123_16x9_992.jpg&hash=7abf587fe4c6409212e8857f9227fce6)
Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on November 25, 2014, 07:50:02 am
Things that bother me about Ferguson, Stand Your Ground in Florida and the latest in Cleveland of a 12 year old boy carrying what was an obvious toy gun.
Virginia