In light of the racial tension in Missouri combined with a few recent events locally, the KKK is rumored to be planning to riot downtown Greenville, Tx. tomorrow morning.
A few weeks ago, a black man was shot to death by a white attorney in the wee hours of the morning. Then last week, 2 young black men were stabbed to death outside a skating rink at 3 AM. The attorney is out on bail. The other killer remains at large.
This has caused tension in the black community, so the KKK plans to flex their muscle.
All this is scheduled to go down in front of the Court House, just a little over 1 block from my shop.
Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
As you say - hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
About 35 years ago (yeah, I was 6 ;-)) a man I worked for was stockpiling MRE's and guns and ammo saying that America was a tinderbox and that there was going to be a major race war in populated areas. I still, to this day, hope he was completely paranoid and just plain wrong.
Stay safe.
June
It all seams to be much ado about media hype to me. Ferguson would have been just a blip on the screen if it weren't for the media and all their second guessing. And next week they will be on to the next great news story. The KKK would not be planing their event if they thought the media would not be their with all the cameras.
Might be a good time to take a weekend off. Stay home and watch it on the news!
Quoteso the KKK plans to flex their muscle.
Goes to show how naive I am sitting way up here. Because they never make our news, I thought they were all but extinct.
Keep your head down Brother and check in often.
Several years ago I owned a race team. We had a big weekend long event in Columbus and the driver and team had the car and hauler at the hotel with them. I drove seperately and was to meet them at the track early Saturday AM for safety inspections and our first round of tech. I got to the track and no team, driver or car. I waited and waited and finally two hours past schedule they come pulling in.
I asked them where they were at and they said " We got hung up at a KKK rally ". HUH ???? Turns out they left the hotel, made a wrong turn onto a one way street and ended up smack dab in the middle of a KKK rally. It took the cops forever to clear an area and get them turned around and out of there.
We ended up getting DQ'ed that weekend because of an illegal engine. :) Opp's........... !!!
Chris
Kody,
Media hype or not " A young man died " ! Another here in NY as well. We shouldn't take it lightly. I hope that education is looked at closer in this Country and improved so these types of things will be eliminated. I'm a Father of two cops - it's not easy thinking about the dangers -
always hoping young people find better ways of being part of society - maybe being craftsman and start a business like many here. No time to be out in the streets - trouble finds you there.
SA
Agreed Steven. What I can't stand about the media is they try to make it sound like white cops go around shooting young black adults all the time. This is simply untrue. The sad thing is this case now has to go to trial whether the police officer is innocent or not. No judge in his right mind would absolve this case. No matter how you look at it the officers career is over.
Kody,
You couldn't be more right - this cop has trouble - win or loose because the media is always looking for a way to attract our attention. Race sells ! I wish folks wouldn't take the bait especially when race issues are put before them.
Lets give the judge a chance to look at the facts before we say uncle -
SA
Sofa how did it go?Any trouble for you?
It's really, really easy to "blame" the media. Too easy, in fact! I guess that depends entirely on how you opt to view the media, however. Take a good long look at the FIRST amendment to the Bill of Rights... what do you see? Last time I checked "freedom of the press", was included. And it's the same one that allows idiots like the KKK to don bed sheets and spout (IMO) whatever perverted, bible-based garbage they so choose. It offends me deeply, but I'm smart enough to understand that they have that right. I will stand up in opposition, because it's my right. More importantly, it's my civic duty! People put their lives on the line for that right and I will never take it for granted.
Kody,. A few years ago you landed on me like a ton of scornful bricks and you commented that magazines like Vanity Fair and Rolling Stone were nothing more than "pop culture". I didn't bother to reply. Did you know that Tom Hetherington (a photographer for VF) died in the Middle East? he was trying to get the story out to people like you and me; that sure defines "pop culture". So far (by best estimates) 32 journalists have been killed in 2014; well ahead of the pace of killings in 2013 (70) and 74 in 2012. Does the loss of journalists "in the line of fire" make their deaths less important than James Foley's grisly on-line murder? maybe so if you don't read their reports, look at their photographs. I don't pay for TV. I watch network news and PBS (and yes, I'm a member!) and I read... Pulitzer winning "pop culture".
I am appalled by the mayhem that followed Michael Brown's death. There is no excuse for rioting and looting. But am I sympathetic to the sentiments expressed by the non-violent protesters? you bet your ass I am! There was a great story on NPR about a local football team in the Ferguson area struggling with the aftermath. Scope it out on line. But a big part of the story involved "Eyes On The Prize" (Public TV!) and how to cope with and effectively address incidents that are as revolting as Michael Brown's death.
Quote from: MinUph on August 23, 2014, 01:56:36 pm
Sofa how did it go?Any trouble for you?
Even groups like the KKK don't have as much fervor as they used to. Back in the day, they wouldn't have waited until the weekend to plan a violent protest. They would've taken off right smack dab in the middle of the work week if need be.
About 20 motorcycles circled the court house for 3 hours this morning. When they saw that they couldn't stir up any trouble, they got bored and left.
Thats good news.
When i was a small boy i grew up in california. And visiting some of my relatives i visited placed like stored in watts ect and after seeing the riot of the 60s on tv i was bit scared when i saw black people in great numbers as in my neighborhood and shool there were none only spa ish were a cew of minorities. Then when i was 10 i moved to massachusettes And maybe one black kid in school. And in myadt life in new hampshire i can only think of 2 customers i had.
Then io ed to florida and i was shocked when i corst got here i had a a few customers who were from the south carolinas i think one came right out when talking to me using the "n" word. I just did t say a word and took there money. But i havent seen that sence most of my customers are all northerners New jersy. Midwest. New england. Never a minority customer yet except maybe a german. Or Brit.
From 1930-1968, this sign hung over downtown Greenville Tx:
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi775.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy33%2Fsofadoc%2Fth_Greenvillecirca1960.jpg&hash=8398b890446999a995c22ab1e8917215) (http://s775.photobucket.com/user/sofadoc/media/Greenvillecirca1960.jpg.html)
It finally came down when I was 10 years old. My present-day shop is just out of view in this photo.
"The Blackest Land" referred to our soil, but there has been a lot of local debate recently about the meaning of "The Whitest People".
Old-timers in town insist that it never had a racist meaning. They contend that the word "whitest" meant "purest". I certainly don't remember hearing that definition when I was a kid.
All I know is, I was not allowed to play with black kids. They had their own separate elementary school. They weren't allowed to play Little League baseball, or high school sports. Public buildings had separate rest rooms.
And if you were to have asked my Grandmother back then what the sign meant, she wouldn't have minced any words. She couldn't put 2 sentences together without using the n-word.
Given my upbringing, there's no logical explanation why I didn't grow up to be a racist.
But locally, the real debate about this photo involves the white car.........Edsel or Bonneville?
Notice the driver right behind the white car. He has his hand out the window to signal "Stop".
Quote from: sofadoc on August 23, 2014, 07:17:41 pm
All I know is, I was not allowed to play with black kids. They had their own separate elementary school.
though there were no black kids in CA as a kid my best friend on the street was Ernie Valdoven.
Quote from: sofadoc on August 23, 2014, 07:17:41 pm
Notice the driver right behind the white car. He has his hand out the window to signal "Stop".
be hard to do now with the AC on
At this point, the focus should be on what happened! Why can't everyone take their seat and let this thing play out? There are two sides to every story, let it play out.
Media and politics and misinformation is making this situation worse today and for the future
Any contributions to the world of upholstery or is that of interest?
Doyle
Quote from: bobbin on August 23, 2014, 02:05:12 pm
Kody,. A few years ago you landed on me like a ton of scornful bricks and you commented that magazines like Vanity Fair and Rolling Stone were nothing more than "pop culture".
I had to go back and re-read that post. It was fun to read where we were then and where we are now.
http://www.upholster.com/upholstery-forum/index.php?topic=11758.0
And by the way, I love Vanity Fair,
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1179.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx386%2FEdwinNorthuis%2Fth_VanityFair.jpg&hash=5a729967d8b167d5daab106d4658f9bf) (http://s1179.photobucket.com/user/EdwinNorthuis/media/VanityFair.jpg.html)
QuoteIt's really, really easy to "blame" the media. Too easy, in fact! I guess that depends entirely on how you opt to view the media, however.
Sure, we need the news media and I'm sure many other countries have worse reporting than we have, but, It's so predictable the way news gets reported.
It's not so much what they report sometimes as what they leave out. The major news agencies wield so much power to form public opinion. What are people to believe when night after night, they tune in to the same news programs that report mainly (I'm being generous when I say "mainly") those stories that fit what they want their viewers to believe? If it were more balanced, then it would result in a better informed public, but that would not serve their interests, so certain stories get aired over and over again while others never quite get to see the light of day. Then, with a distorted opinion of the facts, people want to jump to a conclusion as soon as they hear of yet "another case of police brutality". As mentioned before, how is that officer ever going to get a not guilty verdict if he's truly innocent?
It seems today that you are seen as being part of a group that acts a certain way and not as an individual to be judged fairly on your own actions. And I believe the news media is a major factor in continuing that mindset.
Rich
Sofa, hope all goes well for you and your business and BTW-59 Bonneville.
Rich
I see the media as a sort of predatory animal. They watch the herd, select a weakling, and then go about the business of separating that weakling from the rest of the herd.
Once they've accomplished that, the herd that once offered protection to the weakling will now desert him.
I don't think there is any news service in the world that doesn't spin a story in a way that plays to their target audience.
I've seen a couple of local events get nationwide coverage in the last 20 years. It was frustrating to watch and read the important details that were left out simply because they would've made the story a little less extraordinary. So when I watch or read about any big news story, I'm always skeptical as to what they may have either omitted or embellished on.
Think about this for a moment. When you tell your friends about something unusual that happened to you, do you tend to leave out minor aspects that would make the story a little less sensational? Or if it's about an altercation that you were involved in, do you tell it in a way that totally exonerates you? I think we all do. It's human nature.
Quote from: Rich on August 24, 2014, 07:15:37 pm
Sofa, hope all goes well for you and your business and BTW-59 Bonneville.
Rich
Thanks Rich. Looks like everything is cool here. You wouldn't believe how many locals will swear on their mother's grave that the car is an Edsel. But then, those same people were also all BFF's with Audie Murphy (hey, it's all about how you tell the story).
And now for something completely different
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgNgJPX52fA&index=2&list=PLn2K6rez7mW5UHhkLY8ex9U8jEd2UDTvi
Quote from: kodydog on August 25, 2014, 05:47:14 am
And now for something completely different
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgNgJPX52fA&index=2&list=PLn2K6rez7mW5UHhkLY8ex9U8jEd2UDTvi
Thanks for that Kody, I was riveted to my seat and I will never look at black bears in quite the same way again.
Absolutely superfluous!
Rich
QuoteI don't think there is any news service in the world that doesn't spin a story
I totally agree, but what bothers me the most is when they try to dictate how you should feel or think about an issue. Take Cody's "news report"---They have darted at least 3 or 4 bears out of the oak tree behind me in my bio pick. No reporters. Heck my BBQ is in the other corner of the deck and unless they were wound for sound we finished our meal up on the deck.
BUT, if the media had chosen to
jazz the story up with only the facts that suggest that oak trees are the root cause of nuisance bears---how long would it be before some tree hugger had a petition at every check out in town calling for a ban on oak trees?
Quote from: Darren Henry on August 25, 2014, 03:42:57 pm
QuoteI don't think there is any news service in the world that doesn't spin a story
I totally agree, but what bothers me the most is when they try to dictate how you should feel or think about an issue. Take Cody's "news report"---They have darted at least 3 or 4 bears out of the oak tree behind me in my bio pick. No reporters. Heck my BBQ is in the other corner of the deck and unless they were wound for sound we finished our meal up on the deck. BUT, if the media had chosen to jazz the story up with only the facts that suggest that oak trees are the root cause of nuisance bears---how long would it be before some tree hugger had a petition at every check out in town calling for a ban on oak trees?
There's no easy answer to any of these questions. We absolutely need free press so that we are given the facts in the situation. Early on in Ferguson, two reporters were arrested for sitting in Mickey D's trying to use their free Wi-Fi to post their stories. When they were finally released, they were never charged, no report was made -- yet they spent a significant amount of time behind bars. What kind of crap is that? On the other hand, I get really irritated with those reporters who spin stories to suit their political (or their station's political) views. Miss Cronkite and those of his kind who gave us the news without bias or spin -- to quote Joe Friday, "Just the facts".
Also, it happens more than you would think that the media are not allowed into areas where there is a story that needs to be told. Like Mayflower Arkansas when they had a tar sands oil leak. Big oil came in and dictated a no fly zone and restricted access for media and darned if they didn't get it. Pictures of the devastation the leaks caused were posted but they didn't get nearly the coverage they deserved, IMO.
The bottom line is that racial tensions are as bad, if not worse, in a lot of areas in America than they were in the 1960's before all of the race riots. How we can fix that is beyond me. I'm just saddened that groups like the KKK, skinheads and the like are thriving in the 21st Century. As posted earlier, a young man died. Who knows what kind of man he would have been had he lived. I feel for his family for their loss. I cannot imagine growing up as a young black person today. Too often they are followed, just because of their skin color. Can you imagine how you would feel if that were to happen to you and you had done nothing wrong?
Virginia
The bottom line is that racial tensions are as bad, if not worse, in a lot of areas in America than they were in the 1960's before all of the race riots. How we can fix that is beyond me.
Virginia[/quote]
That's something I would be very interested to hear evidence for. I think overall in America today, racial tensions are not what they were in the 60's. I do see bigotry coming from blacks against whites. Assumptions are made that because a person is white, they must be thinking a certain way, or their behavior must be motivated by attitudes that there's little evidence for (we have a black President and an Attorney General) or somehow, they have to keep making concessions for ill-treatment of blacks by our ancestors.
Meanwhile, I see glorification of poor attitudes in the black entertainment industry which if done by whites, would be considered bigotry. If it's a bad portrayal, it's bad no matter who does it.
I was reading an article in my local paper yesterday just opposite the article about Michael Browns funeral that said a casino company is opening casinos in low income cities in America. It's been proven that when a casino opens in an area, gambling increases in that area. Do low income people need to have yet another vice to siphon off their income and cause more social problems? And the police get blamed for causing problems? Where's the outrage over this?
In the funeral article, Al Sharpton was quoted as saying he has respect for the police, but he also said those police who are wrong need to be dealt with. Well, doesn't that statement assume he believes the office who shot and killed Michael Brown is guilty? Why would he even be there if he didn't think so? Maybe he should wait for the results of a full investigation?
Rich
Quote from: Rich on August 27, 2014, 04:12:16 am
The bottom line is that racial tensions are as bad, if not worse, in a lot of areas in America than they were in the 1960's before all of the race riots. How we can fix that is beyond me.
Virginia
That's something I would be very interested to hear evidence for. I think overall in America today, racial tensions are not what they were in the 60's. I do see bigotry coming from blacks against whites. Assumptions are made that because a person is white, they must be thinking a certain way, or their behavior must be motivated by attitudes that there's little evidence for (we have a black President and an Attorney General) or somehow, they have to keep making concessions for ill-treatment of blacks by our ancestors.
Meanwhile, I see glorification of poor attitudes in the black entertainment industry which if done by whites, would be considered bigotry. If it's a bad portrayal, it's bad no matter who does it.
I was reading an article in my local paper yesterday just opposite the article about Michael Browns funeral that said a casino company is opening casinos in low income cities in America. It's been proven that when a casino opens in an area, gambling increases in that area. Do low income people need to have yet another vice to siphon off their income and cause more social problems? And the police get blamed for causing problems? Where's the outrage over this?
In the funeral article, Al Sharpton was quoted as saying he has respect for the police, but he also said those police who are wrong need to be dealt with. Well, doesn't that statement assume he believes the office who shot and killed Michael Brown is guilty? Why would he even be there if he didn't think so? Maybe he should wait for the results of a full investigation?
Rich
[/quote]
I definitely agree with the attitudes portrayed in the entertainment industry, though I see it often times on both sides of the isle. Check out Madonna, for example. I love her singing but sheesh Grow Up Already. Miley Cyrus comes to mind as well. Then there is Rosanne Barr -- who could forget her crotch grabbing while singing the National Anthem at a Ball Game one year. I get more than a little steamed when I hear a black "artist" whose rap consists of dropping the "n" word, calling women whores and other demeaning names
As far as things getting better, I just don't see that. I see states like Texas, S. Carolina and think there is at least one more who are redistricting (less white Republicans in a heavily black Democratic area) but it will now be a Republican District -- how that can be done wobbles my mind) and also are working very hard at disenfranchising black votes by lessening voting hours, voting id's, etc. Voter id laws really are ridiculous as there have been multiple studies and all concluded that the reasons stated for needing voter identification laws are just not happening. SCOTUS struck down a portion of the Civil Rights Voting Act saying it wasn't necessary. As soon as that happened, Texas and S. Carolina hopped in with the above actions, only proving why the Voting Rights Act was and should still be in place with no changes. Also, the fact that the KKK is making a comeback in some areas, the number of skinheads and other hate groups is growing exponentially also points to an increase in racial tension.
Yes, we have a black President and a black AG and honestly, I have seen more racial slurs posted in comments on the internet since that happened than before.
Virginia
QuoteAlso, the fact that the KKK is making a comeback in some areas, the number of skinheads and other hate groups is growing exponentially also points to an increase in racial tension.
I have to plead ignorance currently on the voting laws, but as far as the hate groups, I want to say right away that these groups are to be condemned harshly. Anyone who hates others is in the wrong place to begin with.
But, it's interesting to observe that it goes on and wonder why. We can usually get a handle on societal attitudes in general by looking at the actions of the extreme. Why are children killing? Is there something that is affecting all children causing the most unstable among them to act out? I think so. Likewise, is there something about the treatment of minority groups in America today that is causing the extemist hate groups to cry foul and act badly while most of the rest of the (currently anyway) majority sits and grumbles? I don't think what these hate groups do is reason to label the majority negatively, but to watch the news reports, one could get the idea that race relations are worse than they actually are.
If given the opportunity, I'd like to ask a black person who complains about the sad state of race relations in this country today, "What bigotry have YOU encountered in the last few days? The last few months?" I wonder how many could give an actual personal account.
Rich
Quote from: Rich on August 28, 2014, 04:26:49 am
QuoteAlso, the fact that the KKK is making a comeback in some areas, the number of skinheads and other hate groups is growing exponentially also points to an increase in racial tension.
I have to plead ignorance currently on the voting laws, but as far as the hate groups, I want to say right away that these groups are to be condemned harshly. Anyone who hates others is in the wrong place to begin with.
But, it's interesting to observe that it goes on and wonder why. We can usually get a handle on societal attitudes in general by looking at the actions of the extreme. Why are children killing? Is there something that is affecting all children causing the most unstable among them to act out? I think so. Likewise, is there something about the treatment of minority groups in America today that is causing the extemist hate groups to cry foul and act badly while most of the rest of the (currently anyway) majority sits and grumbles? I don't think what these hate groups do is reason to label the majority negatively, but to watch the news reports, one could get the idea that race relations are worse than they actually are.
If given the opportunity, I'd like to ask a black person who complains about the sad state of race relations in this country today, "What bigotry have YOU encountered in the last few days? The last few months?" I wonder how many could give an actual personal account.
Rich
Grand Island doesn't have a lot of American blacks (born in the USA). Because we house a large meat packing facility we have had an influx of Somalian and Sudanese immigrants in the last few years. The house next door to us was for sale for over a year with no takers. It was a little overpriced and needed some touch-up work that the owner wouldn't authorize. I think the real reason it didn't sell was because of the house full of drunks across the street. Every time there was a showing, at least 4 men in their 40's or 50's were laying out in the yard drunk as a skunk. So, the house was auctioned off the first of the month. A $40,000.00 loss from its value (identical to ours so I know its value). The couple who bid the highest are either Somalian or Sudanese (not sure which). 4 of our neighbors were either standing on our porch or in the yard by the porch to watch the auction. When the auctioneer announced they were the high bidder and our new neighbors, none of them joined me in going over to congratulate them. Another neighbor was working and was quick to call us to inform us "What kind of person just became our next door neighbor?" -- his only rationale for complaining was that they were not white. We've talked to this couple before and they seem nice enough. My only complaints are that the wife walks 5 paces behind her spouse and she wears traditional dress while he has Americanized his clothing. That's not uncommon as I see that frequently at the grocery store or the mall. Anyway, that's the extreme prejudice that I've witnessed in our town.
Virginia
I suppose that all depends on where you live. My next door neighbor is black, across the street is a Hispanic family and down at the corner is another black. Quite honestly, I don't think of them as anything more or less than neighbors and I think my white neighbors feel the same way. Maybe it's because of our close proximity to Washington DC which has had mixed neighborhoods for years. But I'm thinking more than that it's the class of people who live here. Everyone has a job and keeps their properties neat and no one causes any problems for their neighbors. (Well, that's not entirely true, the symphony of yapping dogs belong to the white folks around me.)
When we lived in NYC, it was a different story. Now, you might think that NYC, being the melting pot it's been called since, forever, would be the same way, but there were many neighborhoods each with it's own predominant nationalities. We moved away 25 years ago and when we listed our house with the real estate agent, we were told in no uncertain terms by our next door neighbor that we better not sell to any n*****s or orientals. I also found out they had visited the RE office and threatened them and that explained why we were getting no visits from any more prospective buyers. (Today, that neighborhood is largely Haitian, Jamaican, black and West Indian and I think less bigoted than when it was largely Italian and Jewish.)
But, I think the bigotry I witnessed back in New York may have been due, as I mentioned before, to the difference in class. Twenty five years ago, many white people there saw the black people who lived a few miles away as lower class and did not want them moving into their neighborhoods and potentially lowering their property values. As it turns out, when the ethnic make up of the neighborhood did change, the property values continued to rise like everywhere else, so that idea proved to be unfounded. I think the attitude was "Black = low class", they didn't see it any other way.
Rich
Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on August 26, 2014, 06:32:48 am
The bottom line is that racial tensions are as bad, if not worse, in a lot of areas in America than they were in the 1960's before all of the race riots.
So does this mean the civil rights movement was all for naught. I say no. I'd say America has taken a drastic turn since the preachings of MLK. Why is there so much unrest in the black community and why after 50 years and over $15 trillion hasn't the government even made a dent in the war on poverty? America now has the highest poverty rate in over a generation.
"What good does it do to eat in the restaurant of your choice if you don't have the economic means to exercise it." MLK
Until 1965 85% of all black families had a man and a women raising children. That changed in just one decade. It's now 42%
70% of all government funds helping the poor go to administration. Also known as the poverty industrial complex. They measure their success on how much money is spent and how many people are on their programs. This may sound cynical but their jobs depend on people staying in poverty.
The general mindset is it's the governments job, send in your money, pay your taxes, and the government will fix it. But 50 years with no results makes the statement not true.
So whats the solution? The government should base success on outcome, how many people are getting out of poverty. This problem can be fixed, its not too late. The government needs to stop pushing away civil charities. they need to embrace churches, charities and civic groups who are in the trenches. For example transfer foster care back to the churches where it originated.
The government should support mentor programs like drug rehab groups. They should get some of the regulations out of the way like administrators who must have a collage degree instead of administrators who grew up in the hood and are recovering addicts themselves. They should support church programs that mentor children convincing them to stay in school and out of gangs. Instead they take power away from the church and support immoral groups that Americans disagree with.
"For decades, religious service providers have been told, "You're religious. You don't qualify. You can't even compete," in spite of the fact that our institutions, our social service providers, have done the best job, according to many social scientists, in helping people. Helping the inmate who's back on the street. Helping the drunk or the derelict. Helping the unwed mother who needs help. Our social service providers have done the best job, the most effectively, at the least cost. Yet for decades, we've been told, "You don't qualify." That's simply not the American way. ..." Richard Land
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." Ronald Reagan
In the 30's and 40's, cotton was one of the most profitable cash crops in the world. And Greenville, Tx. was one of the world's largest cotton producers. This was Greenville's heyday.
That means that a LOT of black people picked cotton for a LOT of white people.
Then Egypt mastered irrigation, and took over world domination of the cotton market, and mankind invented polyester. These 2 factors led to the end of that heyday.
Much of Greenville's black population today is comprised of descendants of those people that picked the cotton. They still live in the same rundown shacks that their ancestors lived in. They haven't been able to climb out of the hole of poverty they inherited.
Then add the large Hispanic population living here illegally. They take jobs away from legal citizens because they work cheaper (since they pay no taxes or insurance).
I would agree, that America has come a LONG, LONG way from the race riots of the 60's. I wish we would take the focus off of race, and start focusing on the disparity between the "Haves" and the "Have nots".
I highly recommend this book to anyone who wonders why, after 50 years of social programs, the conditions Kody mentioned still exist. It's a real eye opener as he puts his finger on just why we are feeling things aren't right in America today.
Rich
http://www.amazon.com/Push-Reclaiming-American-Judeo-Christian-Spirit/dp/1581694555
Quote from: sofadoc on August 29, 2014, 06:16:22 am
Then add the large Hispanic population living here illegally. They take jobs away from legal citizens because they work cheaper (since they pay no taxes or insurance).
I would agree, that America has come a LONG, LONG way from the race riots of the 60's. I wish we would take the focus off of race, and start focusing on the disparity between the "Haves" and the "Have nots".
Most Hispanics I know (a HUGE amount in Grand Island because of feedlots and meat packing plant) are paying taxes. Even if here illegally, you are paying taxes as you are using a stolen SSAN. When I worked at the rendering plant, on more than one occasion, we had a Hispanic fellow apply for a job. We always got drivers licenses and SS cards. One occasion they guy was 5'4 and the height on the DL was 6'1. Another time, the license showed a very full-faced and dark complected gentleman and our applicant was gaunt faced, light complexion with severe acne. Plant manager and I both laughed until we almost wet ourselves. ; )
The biggest issue absolutely is the disparity between the haves and the have nots. It's like 7% controls 81% of the wealth and the remaining 93% have 19% of the wealth in the country. That is why people cannot get out of the rat hole tenaments, frustration, apathy, drug addiction and what ever else.
I've no problem with a former addict running a program as their degree comes from the School of Hard Knocks and that knowledge is worth way more than any piece of paper I ever got for going to school. I am very anti having Church's in charge of those programs, especially the Catholic Church. Of subject but Catholic Health Initiatives has taken the reigns of our local Hospital, the Heart Institute, Imaging Clinic and things I don't even know about. Their prices are substantially higher than those same services that are not run by CHI (or any other Church for that matter). We pay for BCBS each month and starting Monday, if we need to be hospitalized we will have to drive 60 miles to a facility not affiliated with CHI as the contract between all CHI facilities in Nebraska and BCBS has been severed. They are still negotiating but neither seems to want to blink and we who are paying premiums are the ones affected because CHI has gotten greedy. So please, keep Churches out of running programs to help addicts, the sick and the needy.
Virginia
Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on August 30, 2014, 09:39:43 am
So please, keep Churches out of running programs to help addicts, the sick and the needy.
Virginia
The Catholic church isn't the only church in America, many others have programs run by individual churches (non=denominational) and they help those in need as a response to Jesus' command to do that.
In place of churches, who would do a better job? Please don't say the government because ever since the government took over what used to be the domain of churches and private individuals, it has become something done for political leverage and has a poor track record of getting anything meaningful accomplished. Just look at all the social programs that have mainly kept politicians in office in return for an endless promise of enabling to many who should be using it as a leg up to independence but unfortunately have little incentive to get off of them.
Any other ideas?
Rich
Quote from: Rich on August 30, 2014, 06:07:52 pm
Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on August 30, 2014, 09:39:43 am
So please, keep Churches out of running programs to help addicts, the sick and the needy.
Virginia
The Catholic church isn't the only church in America, many others have programs run by individual churches (non=denominational) and they help those in need as a response to Jesus' command to do that.
In place of churches, who would do a better job? Please don't say the government because ever since the government took over what used to be the domain of churches and private individuals, it has become something done for political leverage and has a poor track record of getting anything meaningful accomplished. Just look at all the social programs that have mainly kept politicians in office in return for an endless promise of enabling to many who should be using it as a leg up to independence but unfortunately have little incentive to get off of them.
Any other ideas?
Rich
IF the church's were doing what Jesus wanted and kept greed out if it, I'd have no problems. Greed has entered the equation. That's what is going on with CHI and BCBS right now. You see it in many Church's with their opulent buildings, jinormous salaries, etc. I don't pretend to know all the answers, I just know that the churches that I see are all about money, money, money and NOT about following Jesus' teachings.
Virginia
Rich, I need to comment further on the government and social programs.
40+ years ago, through no fault of my own, I wound up as a ward of the State of Nebraska and eventually was placed in foster care. I ultimately wound up in a fabulous foster home where, I'm told, I flourished and graduated from high school and have become a respected member of society. Our wonderful Governor decided that this same foster care system was "in need of serious reform". He restructured the system, privatized it and almost ran it into the ground. Foster parents were not being paid, children in some cases had little more than the clothing on their backs. Basically, the entire State revolted against this fabulous new system and the foster care system is now under the State's control again. Kids once again are getting the necessary clothing allowances they need, foster parents are being paid (though not nearly enough in my humble opinion) and the State's foster care system is rebounding again.
So, yes I believe that the Government can run social programs successfully. Social Security flourished until its funds were transferred to the general budget by a former republican president as it gave him more money to spend on a war. SS would not be in danger of running dry if all workers paid the same rate but that's another subject for discussion.
Perhaps the reason that I have faith in the Government running programs successfully is that I worked for 20 years for the Government and I've seen how much Government workers can accomplish.
Virginia
IF the church's were doing what Jesus wanted and kept greed out if it, I'd have no problems. Greed has entered the equation. That's what is going on with CHI and BCBS right now. You see it in many Church's with their opulent buildings, jinormous salaries, etc. I don't pretend to know all the answers, I just know that the churches that I see are all about money, money, money and NOT about following Jesus' teachings.
Virginia, you'll get no argument from me concerning rampant greed in our society today and yes, many churches have adopted the ways of the culture. My wife and just recently left a church after many years for reasons related to that very thing, but there are churches, as we are finding, that have stayed true to the Biblical message.
I am glad you had that good experience in the foster care system, lives are changed for the better when people do the right things. My main beef s with the Federal government's handling of social issues. They should be protecting us and removing obstacles to make it easier for entrepreneurs to succeed, not enabling people who won't take personal responsibility like you did.
On social security, I found this:http://www.snopes.com/politics/socialsecurity/changes.asp
Here's a portion of it:
Prior to 1984, income derived from Social Security benefits was exempt from taxation. Amendments to the Social Security Act passed by Congress in 1983 allowed for 50% of Social Security benefits to be considered taxable income for taxpayers whose total income exceeded specified thresholds.
Responsibility for this change cannot fairly be assigned to either political party. The idea originated with a proposal issued by the bipartisan Greenspan Commission, which had been created by President Ronald Reagan, a Republican. The amendments were passed by a House of Representatives in which the Democrats held a clear majority of the seats (296-166), but the proposed amendments received "Yea" votes from members of both parties, and they were signed into law by President Reagan.
snopes.com
Of course, as we all know, what one hears about any of these issues largely depends on where the information is coming from. I try to always consider the sources, but it is hard to always know how much truth is mixed in with the blather.
I just don't think the U.S, government has a good track record for fixing social problems.
Rich
Nor do all churches have good track records for fixing social issues. There are churches who will deny services if they do not agree with the person's life style, ie a homosexual who needs drug rehab just for starters. You will never be able to get a church's philosophical views out of their social programs (some yes, some partially and some not at all). I don't want people falling through the cracks because the only help they can get is contingent with a church's "moral compass". My mother had an old saying: Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" -- it is our Government and we the People need to step up to the plate and get the programs that need changes fixed.
Re Social Security. I'm familiar with the taxation of SS bene's as I do my MIL's taxes and their formula for determining taxable level caused lots of my hair to turn gray the first year I did her taxes. Ugh. I'm was referring to taking the SS funds out of their "lockbox" and adding them into the mix which kept the deficit down. That was done under a Republican administration. Also as I stated previously, not all wage earners pay the same % into SS. Only the first $110,000 has ss taxes paid on it. I guess I'll never understand why top earners stop paying ss after $110,000.
At any rate, I'm sure that we're never going to agree under whose purvue social programs should be. We just need to make sure that all people who need help get it. That's all. Also, we need to make sure that those who don't are not sucking the system dry such as the Lottery winner (Ohio?) who was arrested for food stamp fraud -- she claimed she still needed food stamps because she was now making two house payments. :slaps hand against forehead in total disbelief:
Virginia
I can see we're both firmly entrenched in our positions on this subject.
Basically, mine is that I don't like the Government deciding for me who should be the recipient of my hard earned money. I think the gov't. should provide the means for it's citizens to succeed or fail on it's their own merits while providing help for those who, through no fault of their own, have fallen on hard times. This, with the understanding that in a reasonable amount of time, that help will no longer be provided if and when the person becomes able to make it on their own.
I see this country more and more, following the lead of Europe, requiring more working people to support more non-working people. At some point, it no longer works.
America's a great country because of the liberty it provides for one to succeed (and to provide employment for others in the process). It's never been done like this before, it has worked and I hope it doesn't fade into the history books forever.
So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree,
Rich
Quote from: Rich on September 01, 2014, 04:59:11 pm
I see this country more and more, following the lead of Europe, requiring more working people to support more non-working people. At some point, it no longer works.
ive always wonder kinda the same I have seen so many people who don't produce anything at there job. my dad called some of them" paper pushers" somebody has to make something to be sold to support the rest of the non producers . like a bug one insurance lol there's a big nothing you cant touch. like a friend of mine a truck driver for a union lumber yard. he will retire soon and get a really nice check each month somebody making all that money going to all the retired teamsters . my ups driver is retiring this month also .
there another subject the social security system they say it will run dry. I know theres a dollar amount that one can make each month ant still collect but I don't think its $3500 a month pension and his monthly SS check
We definitely are not going to agree.
Myself, I would like to see us a little more like Europe. I know they pay more in taxes but their medical is included so they don't have stupid fights with insurance companies, get set amounts of time for both fathers and mothers when new babies arrive, retirement that is hands above our social security, etc. Bob & I agree that if we knew what we know now when we retired, we would have gone across the Big Pond.
As far as Government deciding how to spend our $$$'s, that is part of living in a "civilized society". I have a severe dislike, more like disdain, for war (even though I'm a veteran and worked for the Defense Department for many years) but I understand that it is the Government's responsibility to decide when we go to war. Part of the overall process. Going to the State/Local level, I want children in need to have a stable foster care system so they don't fall through the cracks -- I ever so grateful that such a system was in place when I needed it. I want to drive on good roads and part of gas tax goes to refurbish our highways. I want firemen to respond should my house or garage catch on fire and I absolutely want the police to respond when the drunks across the street get out of control yet again.
So, I look at all the pluses that I get from my tax dollars and I'm overall happy. Yes, I would like some of the systems improved but that will only happen when we the taxpayers flex our collective muscles and make our voices heard.
Virginia
"I want to drive on good roads and part of gas tax goes to refurbish our highways. I want firemen to respond should my house or garage catch on fire and I absolutely want the police to respond when the drunks across the street get out of control yet again."
Just one point for clarity, Those are services that gov't should provide so that people can be fee to live successful lives. We can't build our own roads, put out our fires etc, but expecting the gov't to provide a nice retirement or pay people not to work is not.
That's my understanding of what was intended back when this country was formed.
Rich
QuoteYes, I would like some of the systems improved but that will only happen when we the taxpayers flex our collective muscles and make our voices heard.
Dang straight!!! But how do we end the apathy of the electorate? And how do you force an individual who will retire at huge $$$ at the end of his/her term (s) to P/O the puppet masters that got him his job when only 4? % (Cdn stats) turn out to vote let alone actually hold their MP/MLA to task as a collective group with a workable proposal?
QuoteI would like to see us a little more like Europe.
I have never had the opportunity to go to Europe. Many of my friends back in Kenora are German immigrants though, and as proud as I am to be Canadian I think we could save the Canadian tax payer some serious cash ( or actually have some old age pension in the bank when I get there, etc...) if we took some notes from them. One short example: Canada--- right shade of skin/ know right answers---set for life; Berlin---no doctor's note---here's a pair of labelled coveralls and a shovel. We'll buy you lunch, but you don't get your welfare check until this snow is removed.
Just sayin'
America was founded on a principal of capitalism. This is what made our country unique. This is what made our country powerful.
Today capitalism is considered a bad word but most people on this forum, weather they like it or not are capitalists. Capitalism is an economic system where the means of production are owned by private individuals. Under a capitalist economy, the economy runs through individuals who own and operate private companies.
Social-ism is an economic system where the means of production, such as money and other forms of capital, are owned by the state or public. Under a social-ist system, everyone works for wealth that is, in turn, distributed to everyone. Under capitalism, you work for your own wealth. A social-ist economic system operates on the premise that what is good for one is good for all. Everyone works for their own good and the good of everyone else. The government decides how wealth is distributed among the people.
By definition Social-ism and capitalism cannot work together.
Some people believe the Constitution is a living, breathing document. One that is always changing through the ages. But the framers wrote the law of the land in such a way that it could withstand the test of time. It is a pretty incredible piece of paper written by some incredible people.
So what is the constitutional role of the federal government. The preamble says, "form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for common defense. Quite simply;
1 Defense, war prosecution, peace, foreign relations, foreign commerce, and interstate commerce.
2 The protection of citizens' constitutional rights (e.g the right to vote) and ensuring that slavery remains illegal.
3 Establishing federal courts inferior to the SCOTUS;
4 Copyright protection.
5 Coining money.
6 Establishing post offices and post roads.
7 Establishing a national set of universal weights and measures.
8 Taxation needed to raise revenue to perform these essential functions.
As we can see the founding fathers wanted a very limited federal government. And if one were to read further, states rights are most important. The growth of the federal government is completely out of control.
I could never understand why if a person has $1mil or even $1bil this means other people must stay in poverty. There really is no correlation between the two. The ability to succeed is available to everyone, in every country under every form of government, especially in America. No man is poor because opportunity has been taken away from him; because other people have monopolized the wealth and have put a fence around it. Anyone can follow the tide of opportunity to riches. No one is kept in poverty by a shortness in the supply of riches; there is more than enough for everyone. If an individual is poor it is because they do not follow the certain way of doing things which makes the individual man rich. You are not kept poor by the lack in the supply of riches. This is a fact. Any man or women can become rich if they will act in a certain way. You don't have to be greedy, you don't have to cheat, you don't have to take advantage of other people, You don't even have to be thrifty. In fact you can become rich by giving more than you receive. You can become rich in any business, in any environment. Including re-upholstering furniture. How do I know? I've seen people do it.
My point is people stay in poverty by their own beliefs. By thinking because one man is rich another must remain poor. By thinking their environment is keeping them down, your environment can only keep you down as long as you stay in it. By thinking they're not good enough or smart enough. I've seen plenty of uneducated and untalented individuals become wealthy. Madonna comes to mind.
KD - seems accurate up until the last sentence. Uneducated + untalented ? I sort of like some of her songs not a big fan but she is amazing in what she accomplished and I would not call her untalented. Education isn't always academics - it can be the need to survive and use your inherent skills to prosper -
SA
I keep thinking I'm the smartest person on this forum but folks keep proving me wrong. This time it's kodydog. :)
Here's a link to a blog that I enjoy reading. This guy is an historical scholar. Not everyone on the forum will appreciate what he has to say. His last post is along the lines of what we are talking about here: what are the factors that keep poor people poor.
His post is a bit wordy.
My reply is the 6th reply. It's signed "Gene the upholsterer."
Nietzsche versus the Nanny State
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/zblog/
gene
Please remember that the Interstate Road System that we know today began under President Eisenhower's tenure and was his baby, thus the reason that you see markers on some of the Interstate system that has Eisenhower's name on it. Forget exactly what it says as it has been close to 10 years since I've been on the Interstate. The roads are maintained through tax dollars which is as it should be. God forbid that they become privatized and we have to start paying for the privilege of driving on these roads. My last boss is a real anti big government type of guy. Funny thing is that he owns a fire sprinkler business. Government regulations caused his business to explode and thrive as it is today. Without government regulations, NFS would have folded years ago. His trucks go pretty much all over the State of Nebraska and would be in terrible shape if government tax dollars didn't contribute to the upkeep of those roads. He busts his @ss to keep his ss contributions as little as possible. One year he spent close to 10K on lowering his tax burden and probably only lowered it by $500.00 or less. He was all over getting his ss & medicare card as soon as he was eligible. Hypocrisy at its finest.
I have no problem with b. owners making profit. It was their "baby" and their blood, sweat & tears that built it but they also need to realize that their workers are helping to sustain it. You can continue to make lots of money and pay your workers a decent wage. What I see are billionaires that are milking every penny they can out of their business and workers who need food stamps to survive. That is just crazy, IMO. The same boss I referenced earlier took 1/4 M out of the Company each quarter (more if profits allowed it). The last year I worked for the cheap bastages we did not get annual raises as "we couldn't afford it". However, all three owners got brand spanking new pick-ups. First of the year, they gave us a cola. Office people got a whopping $0.25 per hour and the senior installers got $0.48 an hour and junior installers got $0.35. Then the General Manager changed his salary from $900 a week to $1800 a week. Construction Manager went from $900 a week to $1375 a week. Obviously they could have given decent raises and were just too cheap too. I took a permanent vacation from that place several weeks later.
Darren, how do we the people take control back. People need to stop being apathetic and realize that their vote does count. Vote the bums out. I honestly think that there should be term limits -- like one term and you're gone. Also, all the payoffs and money in the back pockets of our elected representatives have to stop. If you look at net worth before and after terms, it wobbles the minds. Big oil pads their pockets, insurance companies pad their pockets, the list goes on and on. That should be illegal. No elected representative should be allowed to take any money other than their salary ... period. That would be a good start. Perhaps then our elected representatives would do what the people that elected them want done not what big donors want done.
Virginia
Ditto. +1 X2 :thumbsup: or whatever the sign of agreement is here.
Quote from: gene on September 03, 2014, 07:11:03 am
I keep thinking I'm the smartest person on this forum but folks keep proving me wrong. This time it's kodydog. :)
I started this thread selfishly enough, worried that some knucklehead might throw a brick through my window.
But it has turned into a really thoughtful discussion. These are normally the kind of discussions where someone goes a little too far and things turn ugly.
Everyone has expressed some well thought-out opinions. And they've done it in a way that is respectful of one another.
KD says that we live in a country where everyone has the opportunity to rise from poverty. And I agree, they do. But I would say that for those who were born into 3rd, 4th, 5th generations of poverty, the odds are certainly stacked higher against them.
As for Madonna, I'm reminded of what Peter Jennings said when reporting about the death of Sonny Bono:
"He couldn't sing........he wasn't very funny.......and he didn't know much about politics. But somehow Sonny Bono succeeded at all three."
Peter Jennings - nice man - was working in his apt one day on 5th ave - sent there by a decorator. He smoked a lot while I was there and I was thinking why would a guy with all he had hurt his own health. Human nature or the cause of others actions ? Why won't people try harder or do they not care about themselves and need to on lean on someone like Sonny did with Cher. Could Sonny make it alone ? My Grandfather did. Came here with nothing - is that not similar to already being here with nothing. Didn't stop your grandparents or mine - I'm just saying. Please don't break my window.
SA
DON'T TASER ME BRO!!!
I can't remember the last time the KKK rioted - burned other people's cars, broke store front windows, looted anything that they could steal? Maybe they do it differently down in the Lone Star state.
The skin heads have been involved in robbing banks and such to finance their activities. Is there any difference between shaving your head and wearing a sheet?
QuoteThese are normally the kind of discussions where someone goes a little too far and things turn ugly.
Sometimes I miss the good old ugly days when I was right and everyone else was wrong. I heard the phrase "I'd rather be happy than right." Turned my life around. I even get caught smiling on occasion.
gene
PS: Ignorance if not just when you don't know something. Ignorance is also when you choose to not know something. With the internet it is so easy to look up any facts that someone is purporting to be true. If someone's facts are not true, I tend to take that as a sign that they have made a choice.
Quote from: sofadoc on September 03, 2014, 02:42:58 pm
These are normally the kind of discussions where someone goes a little too far and things turn ugly.
BTW When I said that, I wasn't referring to anything that has ever been said by anyone on this forum. I was just talking about discussions of religion, race, and politics in general.
Another BTW Peter Jennings was always my favorite news anchor. He had a soothing, reassuring voice that made you feel like everything would be OK (no matter how bad the news he was reporting was). And I never felt like he was forcing his own views down my throat.
Quote from: SteveA on September 03, 2014, 03:35:52 pm
He smoked a lot while I was there and I was thinking why would a guy with all he had hurt his own health...
We live at a time when we have access to more information than anyone in the history of the world and yet people still start smoking, eat high fat foods and run up their credit card debt. I've come to believe that we do what we want to do regardless of what we know to be true. That, incidentally probably explains another thing that was brought up here, that people raised poor generally don't improve their lot by much if at all. We tend to default to what feels most comfortable to us.
Rich
Quote from: Virgs Sew n Sew on September 01, 2014, 12:28:00 pm
At any rate, I'm sure that we're never going to agree under whose purvue social programs should be. We just need to make sure that all people who need help get it.
Virginia
I couldn't agree more. SS is slowly going broke. It is a huge drain on society. It needs to be reformed. There are too many people sucking off the government tit who truly don't need it. Their argument is, I paid into it and by god I'm going to get what I deserve. Unfortunately the lock box is gone. SS is nothing more than another tax. The current generation is paying for the last generation. The retired generation is the wealthiest group of people in our country. And they are also the largest voting block. Let any politician suggest SS needs to be reformed and watch how fast he is booted out of office.
SS is a terrible investment. By the time I retire the return will only be .5%. The next generation will be 0 or negative investment.
Today's society only wants to know, what is the government going to do for me. A far cry from when JFK was president. I've heard many SS recipients state they use their SS benefits to take their next cruse or to buy their grand-kids handsome x-mas presents. They want what they can get with no regard to future generations.
I say vet those on SS. Only those who truly need it should receive it. This will probably exclude myself. But it has to start somewhere. As you all know self employed SS tax is double that of someone who is employed. I can't see paying SS taxes for the wealthy like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Dr Dre, Oprah, and, god forbid, my own mother who worked hard all her life and gets a sweet pension from the government.
And don't even get me started on emigrants or the tens of thousands of people on medical disability who are working "off the books" and receiving benefits. I can name a dozen acquaintances in this category.
Once again, a thoughtful, tell it like it is post on the wrong direction our country has taken in recent decades. We used to do what was right, now we do what feels good. Time to speak up and be heard.
You go Kody!
Rich
KD
I don't think it is worth the trouble denying those their SS if they paid into it. They worked for it - let them have it whether they need it or not. Not our business how they spend their money - they worked for it.
Yes I pay both sides and it's a killer every quarter. How the gang in Washington manages our money is the problem not a payment to someone who worked for it.
SA
A must watch Robin Williams tribute to the flag,
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=336124543210366