Im sure ive made mistakes but im voing to try to improve after an experience i had this week.
Last month i bought a junk boat on a trailer after i took the boat to the landfill i saw there was rot i missed in the trailer crossbeams. So i removed the bunke and was going to repair it myself but my metal supplier i cound doesnt sell galvanized steele. So i called welded to replace 2 3"x3" crossbeams 150. Ok so i said ill get the triler over asap. The next day i got it over and againg crom a guy in the the dest again he said $150 Not for v shaped beams that lower the boat on the trailer 150 for straight I said ok he said a out 10 days and wrote the job on a piece of paper i got no proposal in writing. I always give in writing.
The. They call to say its done i get there this week and the bill is now $392 with tax ! More them twice i said i was told twice 150 before tax
Now if it was myself and my brother even grossly underwuoted the job even if it was only verbal it eat it myself and keep a customer. So for a out $200 this place has lost all my future bisnedd and referals.
Mike:
We have a firm policy. If we quote a job that is what the customer is billed for. If the job entails more labor or I made a mistake with fabric needs, tough crap. We eat the overages. I will never, ever go back on my word once I give a quote.
I rarely make a mistake and am always spot on with my costing but when those times have arrived where I had a brain fart then I ate the job and delivered to the customer exactly what he ordered and for what I quoted.
Obviously this guy was a hack and he wont stay in business long zinging customers like that.
I now days get everything in writing so there is no mis-communication when dealing with other businesses. I trust no one these days because of the high level of greed out there. A painful lesson for you to learn I guess. :(
Chris
Yup, same here. I stand by my quotes. If I underestimated, that's my bad. That's how I was always taught that business worked. Like you said, they have lost all future business and I would make sure they understand that you will be MORE than happy to explain to people exactly how your deal went down.
Virginia
Add me to the "stand by the estimate" club.
I'm pretty good at spinning a basic labor quote off the top of my head, but I make the effort to sit down and "crunch the numbers" for materials. I have witnessed too many unhappy scenes over the years when a poorly estimated job "went over" and the customer was irritated. Why even go there? doing the "homework" is a lot easier!
I'd have been majorly cheesed off at that one, Mike.
chris I think the young guy that gave the estimate was just a employee but the bow should stick with the price and teach the guy if hes going to price jobs better. a few times when I go to a boat to price it the customer thinks ill have to get back to him with a price, I say if you have a few minutes ill have a cost right now if you like it ill write a contract and well schedule it in so I can goof on things but ill stick to it not flip fop
my biggest mistake it ill measure a job like my last cover I figured 33 yards then when I cut it I saved material overlapping bow point ect and saved about 5 yards for the next job
hooray for in my favor like making a small bimini using 60" width with a front to back center seam and it is only 7 feet wide usualy the storage boot can be made using the width of the top material cut off to make it rather then off the roll
I also stick to my estimates and have eaten many jobs over the years. But for some reason most trades people I have had to deal with do not. From mechanics to plumbers they all seam to have the attitude that an estimate is an estimate only and does not reflect the actual cost of the job. Most people I deal with have such a fairy tail vision of what upholstery should cost if I did not have a reputation of sticking to my estimates I would not get the business.
I also stick by my estimate. If something unexpectitly comes up, I will call the customer and discuss diffrent options they will have.
You might go on the web and leave a review for the business and let other people know how they played games with the pricing.
I've never reneged on an estimate. I've lost money a few times. BUT I've also made more profit than I originally anticipated as well.
So how many of you give back some of the money when a job went a lot easier than you expected? I'm guessing none. ;)
You win some, y0u lose some, eh Sofa.?
I try to be fair. You can't gouge people for too long before the word gets out and people call you less. I have a job on my bench today that has proven more time-consuming that I thought it would be. Simple, stapled on backs, not very large, but the staples are rusted through and the rip-down has sucked. I do my level best to remove the "nubs" and pound in those that I can't remove, but it eats up time.
Note to self: when assessing staple on items make the time test the "rustiness" and give a spread in labor to accommodate extra time that may be required. I'll make out fine on the job, but I've been "chasing my schedule" for over a month now and every precious hour counts.
In this business an estimate is as good as a work order and the invoice that follows is the same. Win some Loose some. The trick is to win more than you loose. But in the end you must be ahead. I've always estimated mid range. In case the job may need this or that and some need both while others need neither. Win some Loose some.
I've done my share of covers and upholstery for 4 or 5 $ per hour. Some, even less. As said, the trick is to make those situations a rarity. And I don't change my prices either. The quote goes on the final invoice. However, I sometimes caution customers that I might find something unexpected (like rotten plywood) that will raise the price. Even then, when I do, it's very little and not fore-warned.
June
Yes June I did forget to mention when I do boat work I will explain that if wood replacement is needed I will give them a call and the price will go up accordingly. I let them know what it would be if required. Most wooden boat seats need to be replaced. Even when they "Look good" from the bottom.
The last fellow I worked for did his level best not to give an estimate. I kid you not. He would pick up a piece of furniture and the customer would be clueless about the cost. I don't know how he did it. My customers would never let me get away with that. He said this method came back to bite him a time or two when upon delivery the customer was shocked at the price and he lowered it to appease them.
Quote from: kodydog on June 26, 2014, 07:15:13 pm
The last fellow I worked for did his level best not to give an estimate. I kid you not. He would pick up a piece of furniture and the customer would be clueless about the cost. I don't know how he did it. My customers would never let me get away with that. He said this method came back to bite him a time or two when upon delivery the customer was shocked at the price and he lowered it to appease them.
I guess it's a good method if you can "pull it off".
It would never fly around here. Ain't no customer letting me step even one foot in their door without knowing what it's going to cost.
Growing up in the family upholstery shop, I can remember my mother being rather vague when it came to discussing price with customers. But unlike Kody's ex-boss, it didn't just bite her "a time or two".............it bit her squarely in the butt EVERY TIME!!
I swear, she dropped her price to appease the customer on every job that went out the door.
When I took the business over, I immediately stopped all that silliness. I was able to show my mother during the first 6 months just how much money she had been leaving on the table all those years.
I've had a few "oddball" jobs that were difficult to estimate. On those, I tell the customer that the job may end up costing more than it's worth.
Need You Guys Honest Professional Opinions.. A friend Posted these pics on a Forum I'm a member of. Took his Boat Seat to a "Pro" to have it recovered. This is what the "Pro" wanted him to accept for a $1,500 Bill!!!! My friend said it did not meet his expectations and the "Pro" said he did not care what his expectations were, he wanted his money or he was keeping the seat and in 30 days he would sell it.
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1018.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf303%2FWoodOnGlass%2F1500ProJob.jpg&hash=d1fb3b3b90e1671666a81e06c9fee6a3) (http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/WoodOnGlass/media/1500ProJob.jpg.html)
I told my friend not to accept it and seek legal advice. I've never done seats this complex but...I know I would NEVER attempt to have a customer pay for work that looked this BAD!!! If you're a Pro It MUST be better than this or you can't expect to charge like a pro!!!
Am I wrong???
Quote from: BlueFlamingo on June 27, 2014, 11:43:02 am
........and the "Pro" said he did not care what his expectations were, he wanted his money or he was keeping the seat and in 30 days he would sell it.
I say call his bluff. Tell him to go ahead and try to find someone that will give him $1500 for that crap.
In this day and age. With all the online reviews available at the click of a mouse, I don't see how a professional can get away with stuff like that.
he better have buily the whole base for that money also even then id never get that much and I suspect part of his problem involved the sewfoam and glue . if the upholstered had removed the seat from the boat himself and did a lousey job like that m, im no legal expert but id feel it was my responsibility to delivery and accepted product and return the boat l but if your friend delivered the seat to be redone that's different I gueese. nut still it has to be acceptable
Angie's List would be a good place to start. You don't have to be a member to submit a review.
Also Yelp!
Quote from: scott_san_diego on June 25, 2014, 11:11:14 am
I also stick by my estimate. If something unexpectitly comes up, I will call the customer and discuss diffrent options they will have.
You might go on the web and leave a review for the business and let other people know how they played games with the pricing.
Holy cow, that's amateurish, at best. I'd be too embarrassed to deliver that piece. There are at least half a dozen mistakes made on that from a technical viewpoint. It's a challenging design for a newbie, but the crooked seams, mis-matched top/bottom alignment making the inserts pull on a diagonal, apparent incorrect use of sew foam and other issues abound on that. It appears the seam allowances weren't clipped or trimmed short on the inside curves - or maybe it's the sew foam. For a so-called pro, it's unforgivable. Wouldn't go on my boat. $1500 is top dollar for that work (if it came out good). I'd have quoted around $1200 for both seat bottom and back in the SE Florida area which is pretty high-priced.
June
I wouldn't deliver that, either.
I'm curious, though, how would the sew foam be the issue? I've never worked with sew foam, so I'm not sure how you deal with it? do you glue it place (to minimize "creep")and then do the topstitching?
I do understand clipping, notching and grading seam allowances, though (one of the cornerstones of classic tailoring technique).
Wow. I would never show that to the customer. It's awful. I don't think this guy was a "Pro".
Some of those pieces may have been cut on a bias which really makes a mess as well. Who knows....
The knit sew foam backing can seriously inhibit your ability to get a good fit. It's manufactured with all manner of knit and from one vendor to the next, it changes constantly, it seems. I've only found one vendor who consistently has the same backing - and it's not my favorite, but I've learned to work with it so always order it.
The backing rarely, if ever, has the same stretch properties as the vinyl. And you have to be careful when patterning, to get the "give" in the same direction as the vinyl's maximum stretch. I never glue it to the vinyl as I feel like it doesn't give the same smoothness to the finish. Lots of folks do, and with a vinyl with a heavier face, you might not be able to tell. I cut the foam and stitch to the edges of the vinyl pieces in the margin before assembly. It's time consuming, but works really well. Most pieces are sewn with the backing away from the vinyl (foam facing up). But on inside corners, the lack of stretch of the sew foam backing will fight you and cause the vinyl to wrinkle so the knit backing has to be against the vinyl with the foam side facing your cushion.
This presents its own problems - especially with dri-fast foam. Dri-fast seems to be very large-pored and rough these days. I can't find any anymore with small pores and a smooth feel. So, if you put the sewfoam foam side against dri-fast, sitting and walking on the cushion will cause the dri-fast to abrade the foam. It needs silk film or a super-thin layer of dacron to permit the two layers of foam to slide without degrading one or the other.
Just my philosophy and methods. I'm sure others have their ways and some may be better.
June
A very interesting and in-depth reply, June. I thank you (and am in no way surprised, because your work is beautiful). I was particularly interested in your comments on using the sew foam with tricot up or tricot down; I hadn't thought about that but now I see how using it one way could be a bonus, but problematic in another application. Interesting!
I hadn't really thought of vinyls having a distinct bias, but I "took no chances" with my recent Ultra Leather job. It was very soft and very supple, and I treated it the way I treat any woven.
I know exactly what you mean with the larger "open cell" reticulated foam! it does have an abrasive quality that the smaller cell stuff never posed. I still find the smaller cell reticulated foam, but it's usually in 35#, not the 50#, and generally I only use 35# for topping closed cell when a customer complains that floatation foam is too "hard".
Thanks for a great reply!
Quote from: bobbin on June 28, 2014, 04:58:05 am
I'm curious, though, how would the sew foam be the issue? I've never worked with sew foam, so I'm not sure how you deal with it? do you glue it place
ill glue sewfoam but doing a inside corner say you have 1/2" foam and glue the foam to the vinyl now laying flat the vinyl foam f abric backing it fine but when you curve it the inside layer of material in a indoce curve the vinyl will wrinkle it a concept I learned along time ago woodworking laminating 1/8" layers of wood when curved the inside layer has to be shorter to make the same circle once the glue is dry it holds the shape
I kinda figured I'd get these kind of responses here. From the looks of all the wrinkles etc. From the looks of it I think he just sewed straight vinyl and tried to stretch it over the old foam. The wrinkles and the lumpiness of the foam showing thru makes me think there's no sewfoam glued or backing the vinyl. Like I said I'm no Pro but I've seen the work of PRO's enough to know what it takes to produce PRO Quality work...and this is NOT IT!!!
I think you may be rite flamingo ho sewfoam whats the point ?that would look like s%*#
Yep, And...That's exactly what it looks like!!!
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1018.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf303%2FWoodOnGlass%2FTurd.jpg&hash=3879e51b214754cddc9320aa49c8c9cb) (http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/WoodOnGlass/media/Turd.jpg.html)