I was recently tasked with quoting a complete re-upholstery job on a 26' deck boat and it probably took me 3 hours to come up with the numbers as it was a model I hadn't done before. Just wondering how you guys come up with numbers for these things. If I were to just look it over and pull a number out of my head, it would have been probably a grand less than what I came up with by looking at each piece and estimating what was required.
There are 27 individual pieces of upholstery on this boat, not unusual for a deck boat, and the complexity goes from stupid simple (one color rectangle) to crazy complex (3 color, odd shapes, 3 or more listings). I ended up building a spreadsheet and cataloging each piece along with hours and materials to arrive at a quote. Do you guys just come up with a number and hope for the best? That's what I've typically done and it's bit me in the a$$ on more than one occasion.
June
I would walk through look at each piece and estimate each individualy. Right each down and have an estimate when finished. Only time I would take it off line would be working from drawings like blueprints. Treat each piece as a seperate one. If you tend to estimate on the low side add an additional % to you figures.
I know you don't get the job unless you bid it however it would make me crazy if I put that kind of time into an estimate that required a survey, spreadsheet, cataloging - and I didn't get the job only to find out that my work product was handed over to another firm who got the job because they offered to do it for less.
I hope this is a loyal customer who genuinely plans to use your company - and not totally price orientated.
SA
I talk occasionally to a guy near me who owns a musical repair shop. We talk about this issue all the time. Some jobs that we do so infrequently, or that we haven't done before, or are very big, can be very difficult to estimate.
How do you provide an accurate price that is not too low that will cause you to loose your profit margins, and not too high that will cause you to loose the job?
I've used time frames before in my estimate to help break up the project. This goes along with what Paul is saying. For example, I'll do this first, then this, then this. I have found that this seems to be of comfort to the customer by seeing a big job broken down into manageable parts. It also helps me to see it in more manageable terms.
I also look at my current work load when considering big jobs, or jobs that I haven't done before. If my work load is slow I may be more conservative. If I'm busy, I may add a larger percentage to my guesstimate.
I look at past projects that are close to the current project and compare.
I also try to keep notes in the hopes that I can refer to them in the future.
Also, are you putting the 3 hours of time spent in putting together your estimate into the project?
SteveA: I look at estimates as "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." With repeat customers you can have a heart to heart talk about how I am the one putting my time, energy, and money into making sure the estimate is correct. I'm the one who is spending my time, money, and energy into helping YOU save money by shopping my hard work around for the cheapest price, etc., etc.
With 'one time' folks I sell the sizzle, not the steak. Yes, you can always get a cheaper price, but what will it cost you in cheaper materials, cheaper workmanship, cheaper or non existent guarantees on labor if something does go wrong???
I've only had one Interior Designer who was actively shopping my estimates. We had a heart to heart talk, and I basically asked her to let other upholsterers spend their time, money, and energy on putting together her estimates and then give me a chance to compete on price. I then pointed out that I don't compete on price so there was no need for her to show me other upholsterer's estimates. That was the last time I saw her.
gene
I do a "go see". I snap some pictures of the work and take some basic measurements and some notes on particular details. I sit down in the quiet of my shop and crunch the numbers to come up the required materials and fabric yardages. And then I figure my labor.
I find the materials aspect of the estimate the harder of the two, personally. I have a pretty good handle on the amount of time something will require, but it's harder for me to look at something and spin a yardage estimate off the top of my head. I'd rather sit down and think about the layout rather than "guessing".
I appreciate the "risk" in putting a lot of time into an estimate... time lost if you don't get the work! But, if you do you can order with confidence and not wind up "short" or way "over" (Boss was famous for that). It's my hope that more experience in estimating will make the process easier (faster) in the future.
It is a problem, we may science it but if bidding against less informed could be for nothing, sad to say. A wrong estimate by a competitor can cancel a perfect estimate toward getting the job. One of the pits of the business.
Paul/Bobbin approach will get you in a ball park. If you get the labor part fairly accurate on a large job, that will be the most important thing (should be a bigger number than supplies). For example, I figured general requirement and bought a roll of vinyl, on a larger job, and had three yards left;
the cost of vinyl vs my time - best to spend the time producing instead of figuring (wasn't short!!). Smile
Expensive materials, smaller yardage, (like expensive material to match auto original), best to give it time to merit a good estimate.)
Doyle
L
I'm always "between a rock and hard place" when it comes to bidding big jobs.
Any time I spend a great deal of time and effort working up a bid, someone else gets the job.
Any time I just "pull a number out of my ass", I always end up wishing I had bid higher.
I don't have an answer for you. Good Luck.
Take your best guess and multiply by pi. If you bid $1000, everyone thinks you just did a wild guess. If you bid $3141.59, they will believe that you put a lot of time and effort into the estimate.
Quote from: sofadoc on February 12, 2014, 07:10:06 am
I'm always "between a rock and hard place" when it comes to bidding big jobs.
Any time I spend a great deal of time and effort working up a bid, someone else gets the job.
Any time I just "pull a number out of my ass", I always end up wishing I had bid higher.
I don't have an answer for you. Good Luck.
My modus operandi! That's what I do then lose enthusiasm for the job because I'm making $5.24 an hour for a week or two. On the other hand, I've spent as long as 2 full days quoting huge amounts of work on megayachts - only to lose the job to a lower bidder (last one I did came out to something like $26 grand). I no-bid those rare jobs these days. I'd have to hire employees to complete them and the large shops get them anyway so it's just a waste of time.
I regret the time and effort spent looking at photos, measurements, etc. but next time I get a similar RFQ I'll be able to come up with a (realistic) price much more quickly.
June
A good rule of thumb is whatever all the materials cost you triple it and you wont get hurt. This is a general rule and not foolproof.
June, I like the idea of building spreadsheet labor/material cost analysis. The payoff is future business potential. The benefit is endless for a diversified type of operation, which my business is. Customers always ask a common question; "how much is....>).
Spreadsheet it, then do one or two and go back and refine spreadsheet.
Cleaver.
For example, I did job today that I believe the first took 12 to 13 hours. Now, I do them in 5 1/2 to around 6. The first one, I verified the requirements of what to do each one thereafter smaller savings are accumulating, ten minutes on a same project is worthy. So far, it is making me money, price is still a function of original time, so in reality return is about double compared to the beginnings. I would like to add that I am told, no one would bit on the job because they said they didn't know how to do it. So far so good, as they say.
Doyle
Quote from: DB on February 12, 2014, 05:15:03 pm
I would like to add that I am told, no one would bit on the job because they said they didn't know how to do it. So far so good, as they say.
Doyle
Don't ya just love those jobs? I do.
Yes Paul,
This involves working with integrated upholstery assemblies, quite unlike doing a component and tacking that one to the frame and then the same for subsequent components. It is apparent that - old school is or has become the past, because the new furniture is coming off the machine as an assembly and installed as a big unit, it speeds the frame installation phase, but servicing such well that was to my advantage to figure out.
Is isn't a Walmart item, something shoppers price around for.
Doyle
When I'm bidding on a restaurant I have a lineal foot cost same with valances, feet times my set cost. For the yachts I know a average seat is about two hours give or take to cut sew and fill so two hours shop rate per piece x shop rate. I don't care if it takes an hour and a half for one or two pieces it will even out it seems so no worries. Foam is cost plus markup thats easy to do just don't waste hours figuring this out its not billable so its waisted time. Once you figure out your per foot costs and foam costs its a breeze but write it down so you don't forget.
June below is a link to the Marine Fabricators Association Times Standard Manual. There is several pages of time estimates for cushion, seat and panel upholstering.
http://marinefabricatormag.com/repository/6/16594/0113mf_tsm.pdf
I've seen the time standards manuals but 95% of the upholstery that I get to quote is too unique for the standards to be of much help. In fact, given my own experience, it's really hard to gauge the time required until you start. For instance, pulling 5/8 leg staples from ABS plastic takes MUCH longer than 1/4" stapes from expanded PVC foam board. You know the ones... they squeal and get hot just from pulling them out. Also on their standards, they don't even differentiate between cushions stapled to boards versus soft-backed (mesh) cushions with snap tabs or Keder hangers. There's so much variability, it's next to impossible to standardize the hours.
June