I don't know why I keep bringing this up.
Many of you have stated that you've practically given up even trying to sell fabric.
The wholesale ::) prices are so ridiculous now, it's difficult to mark them up.
There are so many websites that sell the fabric super cheap, and free shipping.
Plus, in order to sell material, it often requires spending an inordinate amount of time coddling the customer. Maybe even hauling a butt load of sample books to their home, and killing a couple of hours. Or hold their hand in your shop for half a day...........and in the end, they either run to JoAnn's or order some under $10 crap online.
Many of you have taken the attitude of "Why waste my time? Just let the customer go from store to store or site to site. I'll just work for labor". "No sense in me tying up my time and money in something that I can't mark up (and still be competitive, pricewise)"
Suppliers are highly reluctant to give a bunch of sample books to a new start-up.
Then they expect a high minimum order per year.
Many of you work almost exclusively for decorators. And selling the fabric is their gig.
And then, there are those of you that work from home, and really don't have a place to showcase a line of samples.
All these reasons, I understand.
I still sell fabric on about half the jobs I do. But it becomes increasingly frustrating when I lose a big sale because my retail prices are through the roof.
I lost a huge job this week. Just because I couldn't offer the customer the fabric she chose for less than $60 yd. (and that price represented 20% off MSRP).
How many of you have given up on selling fabric? And if so, any reasons that I failed to mention above?
What about you auto/marine guys? Do you do much COM work? And more importantly, do you mark up what you do sell?
I've never used a customer's fabric on any boat. They've never asked me to. But I don't mark it up either - they have no idea how much I use or don't or what it costs. The upholstery jobs are simply priced and the materials and labor are never separated on an invoice. They pay the price I set or they go to one of my competitors.
June
June:
I also don't separate labor and material costs on my invoice/estimate.
BUT, the "bottom line" is what it is. And often, that bottom line reflects a retail markup that prices the customer right out of the job.
I could just sell fabric at cost. But then I would technically just be an unpaid intern for the fabric suppliers. Why should I help them sell their fabric for nothing?
I realize that it's a different world in auto/marine. For you guys, the material that goes into a job is looked at more like a supply item, or part. Customers aren't as apt to want to furnish some cheap junk on an expensive boat job.
I guess that I could adjust (drastically raise) my labor prices, and just treat the fabric as a commodity.
I think that overall, you auto/marine guys might have a better business model.
When I do marine work I have to itemize everything. Maybe it's reflective of the overall economy, dunno, but my customers want it spelled right out in black and white. I envy you, June!
I submitted a quote for an interior on a boat last week... the guy was just brutal about prices, one question after another... questioned my labor rate and grumbled about having to pay a "cut" to the marina. I explained, as politely as I could that I'd rather not bill through the marina but that it was really only fair to do so since they've gone out of their way to recommend me several times. I would love to do the job and was highly recommended by the marina but I'll be surprised if he accepts my proposal. The killer for me was the price of foam and I explained that I quoted very nice quality foam because cheap foam is no bargain. I told him I had sample books for several very suitable and good looking fabric lines of fabric and that prices were all over the place but I would do my best to work with him on pricing. I also said I would be willing to work on COM.
We'll see.
Fabric sales are icing on the cake. I allow most people to take their time and call me with questions. They generally take a few books home as I tell them please take some home and look at them in your room. I try to start them off and go back to work. If we sell the fabric it's because they want to do the one stop thing. Most say I will supply the fabric up front and don't waist our time. But the sale is always welcomed. At a discount of course.
like june I don't and never heard of a marine shop breaking it down I price the job figuring my cost on materials and labor.
i guess I could mark the fabic up or just raise the labor either way it all the same
loh ya com for the first time I hve used it a young lady got a prive from me to do some boat seats it was like $675 I didn't hear back then a couple weeks later she called asked how much for the labor as she had some vinyl I said well $600 I figured $75 on material.
turns out she found some lady who started but then decided not to do it too hard
A recent experience, correlating with this discussion in a sense, went like this. Customer wants a nice chair reupholstered, said she would provide materials and wanted a price. The response to that was, buyer be careful for most discount retailers (their clerks) usually know little about upholstery and what fabrics work easier and the buyer may end up with a price but junk to work with. Therefore, ultimately you could end up with fabric that I will not work with.
With that the customer got to thinking that outcome isn't good. I got a call back a week later indicating that they wanted to buy the fabric from me.
So, there are a couple of points made in this experience which are; low information consumers think they are doing the right thing to go COM. They think it is dumb not to, until they learn there are differences in fabrics instead of price.
The other thing they learn is upholsterers know a bit more about suitability of fabrics. This idea that price is the best guide in fabric selection can lead to a big mistake.
Our culture is so price driven and in many cases it is because of lack of knowledge of what they are doing. Some call it the "Walmart Effect". Part of it anyway.
Doyle
In a metro market of the size here, there are numbers of discount fabric houses that have trained consumers to expect fabrics a certain low prices.
Yesterday, a customer came in driving a late model Lincoln with 4 yards of thin material, about 45 inches wide in quest of getting a glider rocker cushions and deck redone.
It was not stated what the fabric cost but her 4 yards had to be low, perhaps $5 a yard?
Never the less, when she heard the price of fabricating and installing, she couldn't believe it.
Her response was ..........why! Isn't all you do is "just"!
It never ceases to amaze me how some who know maybe a little about home sewing think all sewing is the same.
The best experience or lesson for these type is try to make a boat cover on their domestic machine. That "I sew" attitude would learn quickly all sewing isn't the same.
She got in her Lincoln and drove on down the road.
Yes, lot's of reasons shops have lost retail sales, competition, retailers miss representing inferior/wrong fabrics as standard furniture upholstery fabrics.
Some, probably could say many, will shop on the internet for fabric.
Yes, again we furniture reupholster's have our challenges in marketing fabrics, especially in big marketing areas and even on the internet.
Doyle
This thread flashed across my mind as I answered yet another e-mail from a "quote". All about price, "what can you do for me?". "I can buy that on-line for a lot less". sigh...
Yeah, you probably can "buy it for less on-line". But have you thought about why upholstery shops and workrooms tack on a "cut fee" for yardage they don't sell? Have you even thought about the ecological havoc and long-term effects your pursuit of the "cheapest price" has set in motion?
I understand the "sticker shock" of customers. But I live in the USA, I have to pay taxes (local, state, Federal) and I don't have the clout of multi-national corporations. I also understand that the textile industry is a very heavy polluter and requiring mills to adhere to EPA requirements has made "off shore" milling ever more attractive. Closer scrutiny of the real damage wrought by mills in China, India, Pakistan, etc. reveals pollution on a mega scale. And that doesn't even begin to take into consideration the wages workers are paid. "Norma Rae" should be a clickable link on any of my estimates... sheesh.
When I have customers come into my shop and look at the books in my show room, I would say I sell about 80% of the time the fabric from my books. I know that these customers are serous about getting the work done. I encourage them to take the books home with them to see what the fabrics they have chosen, look like in there home. As I tell them, it is hard to visualize the colors you have in your home and that the fabric will look different in their home compared to my show room. About 70% of the time they pick out a different fabric.
I break down the cost for labor, material and foam. That way it is easier for me to keep track of what gets taxed.
Quote from: scott_san_diego on November 15, 2013, 12:28:51 pm
I encourage them to take the books home with them to see what the fabrics they have chosen, look like in there home.
If they leave my store with sample books, odds are........I just lost a fabric sale. They go home and start pokin' around on the internet, and find fabric for a fraction of my retail prices.
It's funny......they always say that they just can't tell by looking at a little sample in my store. But then, they go home and buy fabric off a computer screen.
Labor and materials are taxed at the same rate in Texas, so I have no reason to break it down.
In the 90's we played around with the idea of "our fabric only". And we even tried it for 6 months. Wouldn't even consider it now. In the 90's we shied away from decorators because they always supplied their own fabric. Now I would consider becoming a "work room only" for decorators.
Quote from: kodydog on November 17, 2013, 04:57:59 pm
In the 90's we played around with the idea of "our fabric only".
Many shops used to operate that way. Now, it's almost the opposite. Nowadays, many shops are COM only. As long as I can continue to sell an average of 100 yards per month at full MSRP, I'll keep doing both.
Quote from: kodydog on November 17, 2013, 04:57:59 pm
In the 90's we shied away from decorators because they always supplied their own fabric. Now I would consider becoming a "work room only" for decorators.
I've always had plenty of "off the street" business, so I never really had any incentive to give decorators the preferential treatment that they tend to expect. They pay the same price as everyone else, and their work doesn't get pushed to the front of the line.
Decorators come and go fast around here. I'm not going to forsake my regular customers for someone who will be "Here today.....gone tomorrow".
I could see where a home-based upholstery business might prefer to work exclusively for decorators. It takes away the need to have any type of storefront presence, or market yourself to the general public.
So you don't buy the line, "If you give me a good deal on this, I can send a whole lot more business your way?"
Quote from: sofadoc on November 18, 2013, 08:45:46 am
I've always had plenty of "off the street" business, so I never really had any incentive to give decorators the preferential treatment that they tend to expect. They pay the same price as everyone else, and their work doesn't get pushed to the front of the line.
Decorators come and go fast around here. I'm not going to forsake my regular customers for someone who will be "Here today.....gone tomorrow".
Quote from: byhammerandhand on November 18, 2013, 11:40:14 am
So you don't buy the line, "If you give me a good deal on this, I can send a whole lot more business your way?"
Wish I had a nickel for every time that line has been uttered to me.
What they really mean is "If you'll bend over, and take it in the shorts from ME.......I got lots of friends that you can bend over for".
Just wondering. Have any of you ever used that line on someone? Like to a plumber, electrician, or mechanic? Personally, I wouldn't have the nerve.
What makes people arrogant enough to think that they have enough clout to make or break your career?
I installed a slipcover for a sofa this morning. It fit great! I patterned it last week, came home and sewed it up, and installed it today. The decorator sells fabric and has a "workroom". She was stunned when I returned the extra fabric and told her it was finished. Couldn't believe it took 2 trips and no "fittings". It doesn't always work that way, but that's the goal!
Tell me where to go to pattern the piece. Leave me alone to do my work. Drop ship me the fabric and leave me alone to do my work. I'm good with that.
There can be positives of selling and not selling the fabrics: One negative for COM is the customer just bought most of the warranty on the job. Should the fabric fail, how can they expect the shop to make it good! Buying the fabric from a well established shop with a lot of knowledge and experience about fabrics can be the best way to go.
Think about it, while the selling upholster works on a job, extra effort will usually be made to get it all right. But, when the fabric might be the problem, the tendency might be to "get it done", I didn't buy the fabric.
There are pro and cons to it all: Some of my business is for the "in crowd" and what they want will not necessarily be in my fabric books. For example, this "French Accent" stuff they like, well a perfect example of what I speak about, no samples. So, you know the answer, COM!
There are other answers in dealing with colors too. These young chic's really go for the "hot colors", which also are not available in my traditional display books.
So, you work with it, ..............
Doyle
COM experiences this week:
1. One of my customers needs 4 more yards to do a project, she informed me that the vendor will not have any more of her fabric. She indicated that looking else where is a waste of time because this vendor/supplier has the pattern locked up, no one else can have the print milled and for now they are only going to have the pattern milled, but on a much different weave (background), which won't match the few yards already on hand.
2. To add, I didn't give any thought before - that some of these prints were copy- righted, Should have but didn't.
Bummer for the customer, I was asked the logical but there is not a logical way out. That is similar to buying a car that parts are not available to do repairs.
Doyle
There is a consumer mentality that if an item wasn't bought off the "net", consumer wasn't smart and paid too much.
That may or may not be true:
Experiences this weeK for some of my clients (COM type) are; Ordered materials that was supposed to come in within the week, it too six, plus color in reality didn't look the same as on the monitor and while the fabric content was "fine", the weight of the fabric was a disappointment.
Last and not least, another needed additional yardage to a previous purchase and was disappointed because background of the print wasn't the same fabric. The printed pattern was but wouldn't work.
As a shop owner, problems continue to arise from internet purchases and it sort of becomes rediculous how consumers are miss led by price. Given a small savings on fabrics, how can it be smart to continue those purchases and take on the odds and risk of being unhappy and backed in a corner on their fabric purchases?
The logic of these type of purchases just leave me speechless, see a certain degree of this type of disappointments.
WHEN will folks see the light? So many vendors are intermediates who probably don't even stock the fabrics, just sell stuff they don't even have control of at such low markups. These vendors exist for things like marine seats, off road vehicle seating, and some auto interior seating. Seemingly, they get the idea everything is easy, you "JUST" whack the material, sew it up and Voila' - get rich with a web site!!!
Ever witness any of this nonsense? Sometimes there can be a lot said for "old school practices". I know this is not representative of all internet practices, some vendors have their act together and do offer good service and the correct goods at savings, so perhaps the word for the wise is becareful of what you buy and from who to minimize problems as discussed. Seems upholstery related items can take on considerable risk.
Doyle
Doyle:
You bring up a good point - the " Drop Ship " way of our consumer world.
It is no where more apparent then in sewing machines. Look at the listings on E-Bay for new sewing machines and I can promise you that 75 % never see the machine you buy. It is all drop shipped from a central location. The importer could care less as all they want is sales. The consumer gets screwed though.
It is happening with all kinds of products. Electronics to parts to whatever. No one stocks anything. All they do is mark up the product a few bucks and make up their revenue off volume sales.
They are nothing more then glorified customer service rep's with a phone and computer.
Chris
Quote from: Mojo on December 16, 2013, 05:43:59 am
Doyle:
You bring up a good point - the " Drop Ship " way of our consumer world.
I'm convinced that many of these online 3rd party fabric sellers are comprised of nothing more than a guy with a laptop in his mom's basement. They make a quick 15% mark-up for doing little more than making a few clicks.
What fries me is, I'm pretty sure that our fabric suppliers not only allow it......they encourage it. It's their way of selling wholesale straight to the public without us retailers knowing about it.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many 3rd party sellers are just online spin-offs of the suppliers themselves.
i have outlasted a lot of decorators . been in business 50 years . if i don`t sell fabric i charge a cutting fee . i never give a labor price til i see the fabric com. or my fabric .