Hi everyone, first post here. Glad I found it to help with my new adventure. I've been reading alot trying to learn as much as I can.
I live in the Bahamas, always wanted to try marine upholstery and finally decided to go for it. I've been doing as much research as I can online for a few months. Since I don't have sewing experience, I chose to go with a Sailrite Ultrafeed. I know they might be overpriced but I decided their support was worth the extra cost to get started. (If I bought a cheap machine on ebay, who would I go to for help?) I will upgrade to a better machine later.
Sunbrella, while very popular and has brand recognition, doesn't seem to be the first choice for most of the posters here. Based on what I've read, I'm going to try out Weathermax 80, Sattler and Recacril along with Sunbrella to see what I like. For those of you who don't use Sunbrella, what do you use for binding? Do you use the Sunbrella binding with other brands or not use it at all, or make your own?
My first order, which I'm waiting for delivery on now is several yards of Weathermax. I'm going to make some covers for a tools that I have and a t-top for my boat to get some practice.
Acrylics (Sunbrella, Dickson, Sattler, Recacril) are all made of the same fibre, acrylic, which is solution dyed for color fastness. I personally don't find much difference between them, all are good quality with similar color offerings and warrantees. I made a lot of awnings and thought Sattler and Dickson had the nicest selection of stripes. Sattler had a much nicer selection of basic solid colors, too. Much more varied which matters when you're working with interior designers!
That said, I'll use any acrylic binding. My folder takes 3/4" single fold binding and that's what I use (although I like 1" for applications when driving over a lot of layers is required). Every brand makes their own binding, too, though usually only available in solid colors, so pay attention to color matching, esp. with blues. In marine and awning work the standard is to use the pre-folded binding (single fold) so the folder on your machine only has to fold the binding in half to render a finished application. In clothing work it's customary to feed raw edge bias through a double fold folder, which turns the raw edges under as it folds the bias in half.
Sunbrella always been the. Ustomer call although outdura and recacril and coastguard. And im sure a cew more all seem m lose to the same. For a good lasting product in. The tropical sun a ptfe thre like solarfix or tenara. Where can you get supplies. Im gueesing not on the islands. Try miami corp. in florida Keyston is also a local choise in fl.
Welcome aboard island,
Your on the right track trying out a few products to get a feel for what you like. As stated by bobbin these are all acrylic products and basicly the same. Some uses call for less stretch like awnings. But the main stay is Sunbrella and Outdura for cushion work. Always use an acrylic binding as the vinyl stuff just doesn't hold up long. Keep us posted and never be afraid to ask ???
Quote from: bobbin on September 11, 2013, 03:24:55 pm
Acrylics (Sunbrella, Dickson, Sattler, Recacril) are all made of the same fibre, acrylic, which is solution dyed for color fastness. I personally don't find much difference between them, all are good quality with similar color offerings and warrantees. I made a lot of awnings and thought Sattler and Dickson had the nicest selection of stripes. Sattler had a much nicer selection of basic solid colors, too. Much more varied which matters when you're working with interior designers!
That said, I'll use any acrylic binding. My folder takes 3/4" single fold binding and that's what I use (although I like 1" for applications when driving over a lot of layers is required). Every brand makes their own binding, too, though usually only available in solid colors, so pay attention to color matching, esp. with blues. In marine and awning work the standard is to use the pre-folded binding (single fold) so the folder on your machine only has to fold the binding in half to render a finished application. In clothing work it's customary to feed raw edge bias through a double fold folder, which turns the raw edges under as it folds the bias in half.
I have to say that one of the main factors in choosing Weathermax 80 to start is price :) No need to use the best just starting out. I've looked at some of the 2nds at Rochford supply that's really cheap. I'll probably get some of that too and offer to make little covers or whatever for family to get more practice patterning and sewing. Does anyone else sell 2nds?
As far as the different brand bindings, I'm talking about the prefolded bindings that just fold once. In looking around, I haven't seen any companies offering these for anything other than Sunbrella. (maybe I just haven't looked in the right places) I wouldn't mind mixing brands, just worried about colour match.
Quote from: Mike on September 11, 2013, 03:39:30 pm
Sunbrella always been the. Ustomer call although outdura and recacril and coastguard. And im sure a cew more all seem m lose to the same. For a good lasting product in. The tropical sun a ptfe thre like solarfix or tenara. Where can you get supplies. Im gueesing not on the islands. Try miami corp. in florida Keyston is also a local choise in fl.
I plan to use ptfe thread when I starting doing jobs for paying customers. I see way too much canvas around with rotting thread. Yes, it costs more, but it's not like you're using a full spool of thread for a bimini or dodger. I think the overall cost will be very low compared to the benefits.
For supplies, obviously nothing locallly. I will have to order and have shipped to a freight forwarder in Florida. I've ordered some stuff from Sailrite, and Outdoor Textiles in Florida so far. I've talked to someone at Miami Corp about purchasing from them as well.
Quote from: MinUph on September 11, 2013, 04:07:41 pm
Welcome aboard island,
Your on the right track trying out a few products to get a feel for what you like. As stated by bobbin these are all acrylic products and basicly the same. Some uses call for less stretch like awnings. But the main stay is Sunbrella and Outdura for cushion work. Always use an acrylic binding as the vinyl stuff just doesn't hold up long. Keep us posted and never be afraid to ask ???
Ideally, I would like to stick with one brand unless a customer asks for something specifically. Having to order and wait about a week for supplies, I will over time try to have a good inventory for basic things. Do most of you guys/gals doing marine stuff still use alot of Sunbrella? I know there will be some customers that ask for it because that's the only brand they've heard of.
I plan to keep reading, asking question and posting picture of my work so you guys can have a good laugh every now and then ;D
yes ive used a lot of sunbrella yes also a lot of outdura the two on your table you couldn't tell the difference for sure many people thart have shrunken sunbrella covers Ill sell on recacril that claims no streach ot shrink well see on that but I have seen it streach, also ive used a lot of seamark replacing searay oem canvas as is . where your a week to get supplies that got to suk as its a day away for many. contact Miami mike member here hes a Miami corp rep
visit when you up and running :) rite mike ? :) company trip
oh ya sunbrella has binding you want and outdura has there from Miami recacrill does also from Miami for sunbrella keyston bros in Miami florida is probably closest
Welcome Aboard.
I rolls and rolls of acrylic fabric a year. I have standardized on Recacril and Sattler.
Their weave process is different from Sunbrella which helps to prevent stretching and shrinking. I do know their fibers, finishes and formulas are a bit different then Sunbrella. Glen raven changed their formula in ( I believe ) 2004 and went with their " next generation " Sunbrella. It is not the same as it was prior to 2004. I also really appreciate the cost savings on using Rec and Sattler versus Sunbrella. I cannot comment on Outdura but if Big Mike and the others say they like it then it must be good. They use it all the time and I have never sewn it.
In regards to thread I use Solarfix PTFE exclusively. Tenara is the PTFE thread that has given fit's to stitchers and caused tension issues. There is something about the twist in the thread that has caused this. I believe I used over 5 lbs of Solarfix last year and am past that mark already this year and have never had an issue. It is priced similar to Tenara. I also have to give props to Solarfix as they have backed me 100 % with factory support on marketing endeavors. being in the Bahama's your going to want a PTFE thread to turn out a good product. The Poly wont hold up well as your climate ( UV Rays ) are very similar to us here in Florida. You have already seen this yourself. :)
I use Recacril acrylic binding 2 et in 1 inch. For me it is must easier to sew. I have used 3/4 inch but found the 1 inch to be easier for me to catch the edges with. Others use the 3/4 " and have no problems. I use the Sailrite binder made by Sussei ( Japanese quality ). It has been an excellent binder and will screw right onto your Sailrite machine bed. It swings out of the way when not in use. Very high quality and has been a great performer for me.
I started my business using the same machine you did except it was called a Tuffsew. The parts and attachments are identical to the Sailrite machine. They are also made under other names as well. Only difference is Sailrite has their badge and color on it. The machine was made for occasional use and not production use and I wore mine out in two years time. It will easily handle acrylics and binding. It now sits in the shed and needs an overhaul. I wore that poor thing out. :)
It will handle Solarfix thread well but I would probably not try Tenara as the tension settings on these machines can be a real headache and Tenara needs an exact tension setting. Your machine will handle the Solarfix without any problems ans well as bonded Poly up to 138. Someday's my machine sewed 138 great. Other days it hated it. They can be real finicky sometimes. It handled V90 great. The 138 was pushing it to its max though.
I will caution you to keep your machine oiled real well, especially the hook. If you start getting real busy then your going to want to consider a good industrial machine. A good source for parts is either Sailrite or Bob Kovar. He is familiar with this machine under a different name " Thompson Mini Walker " and is one of the few parts dealers I found who carries items for this machine.
In regards to sourcing my materials, I use Miami exclusively. MiamiMike has gone above and beyond the call of duty to help build my business. They carry everything I need from fabric to binding to thread and are great to work with. I gave up on sourcing materials from different companies a long time ago. It was a headache dealing with different people and the shipping charges were killing me.
I wish you the best in your new business. If you encounter a problem be sure to ask for help here. The members on here are some of the very best in the business and have seen and done it all. You will no doubt find your answers here.
Chris
Thanks Chris for the detailed reply. I will be looking for an industrial machine in the future. I like the sailrite machine so far using v92 thread. I will try some v138 next time I order.
Can I get by with only 1-inch binding and a swing away binder for now or will there be instances where I will need 3/4"?
If you're still in the "setting up" phase Island. I'd say go for the 1" folder over the 3/4". 1" pre-fold binding will make it a lot easier to ride up over the places where multiple layers get bulky. (learn to cut out bulk, more later). I have worked in 2 shops; the first had folders for both 3/4 and 1". Both folders were right angle and both were mounted on slide plates that covered the bobbin case (vertical axis bobbin). The second shop had the poorest binding set ups I've ever seen, lol. One was on a slide plate but was a straight on alignment and made curves needlessly frustrating and difficult. The "dedicated" binder (a Consew zig-zag) had a folder that was duct taped to the machine bed and again, wasn't a right angle folder even thought its main purpose was to bind curves on awning valences. Go figure! both sucked. When I first started working there we had to actually HOLD the folder and AIM the binding under the needle... no kidding, lol. Binding application is important and it ought to be a fast operation. The stitching needs to be uniform along the folded edge of the binding; stitching that "wanders" because the binding was "aimed" is not remotely OK, IMO. Instead, it bespeaks a lack of understanding of proper binding technique and worse, parsimony on the part of the business owner. Remember that.
I bought an after market swingaway folder and it SUCKED; my machine is a horizontal bobbin (you load the bobbin from below the bed of the machine). I had it retrofitted by the company that made the one I bought, and I still don't really like it (it made 3 round trips to get it right). I will never buy a swingaway again since it was a frustrating and expensive endeavor. All my machines are horizontal axis machines and for that configuration it's wisest to buy the permanent binding set-up. When you are hunting for an industrial machine make sure it's a vertical axis bobbin if you want a swingaway folder. I have several industrial machines and I plan to make my latest purchase a "dedicated binder", a machine that is set up for the sole purpose of binding.
Cutting "bulk"... . Every time you have an accumulation of fabric layers (on a corner) it's important to cut out the stuff that is buried and not seen. A diagonal cut will reduce the height of the junction that the binding must ride over. Make sense? Great thing to know and very important to practice if you want your binding to look professionally "polished".
2 things i have 2 top load binder a singer 111 and a juki 563 bolth i denticke have a remo a ble top plate over the bobbin. That the sussi binder attaches too and can be removed and eeplace with a second top plate. So there is no swingaway binder in your way at all. Ive tried the swing away. And i like this set up much better. nd as far as 3/4" and 1" binding oem alway had 1". And many customers have a forward stock bimini. And windows. That is sunbrella with 3/4" binfi t and they want a rear top and camper enclosure so i make it to match the oem with 3/4" binding. So i just have alway prefered the 3/4" and am used to the look.
Mike, wasn't really clear on the last part of your post. I understand that you have a slide in binder rather than a swingaway. Not clear on whether or not you prefer 3/4 or 1" binding.
Bobbin yes I prefer the cleaner less bulky look of 3/4" binding as I said I started having to match existing canvas making a camper rear to look the same, all oem canvas I seen always used 3/4" so ive gotton used to it yes it can miss sometimes and need more care in making curves
Like Mike, I like the Singer 111W for marine work, though I'm pretty much out of the canvas business, concentrating solely on upholstery. The Singer works really well for upholstery as well. I also have a Highlead with reverse that I use exclusively for upholstery. For some reason I don't like the way it handles canvas. Every stitcher has their favorite, I guess.
Which island are you on? I'm from 'Lutra (but been in Florida for lotsa years). Ya no da vey, eh?
June
Hi, I bought the SR as well.
I wanted a machine that I could move about if necessary. For holidays ( yes I am that sad ) visiting friends who always have that 'little' thing that needs fixing. ( dinghy covers / jeep back ) Rest of the time it's set up as my dedicated binder, so it's really earning it's keep. It's also the only heavy weight zig zag I have which has been right handy on occasion.
If you are thinking of trying v138, remember that means less on the bobbin & more changes, doesn't bother me to much as I am a pretty slow sewer anyway, but could be really annoying if you are a bit speedy.
I have also gotten through a few binders & currently I am using the 1" swing away sold by SR, it's been the best so far.
Happy stitching.
Suzi
Quote from: JuneC on September 12, 2013, 05:15:33 pm
Like Mike, I like the Singer 111W for marine work, though I'm pretty much out of the canvas business, concentrating solely on upholstery. The Singer works really well for upholstery as well. I also have a Highlead with reverse that I use exclusively for upholstery. For some reason I don't like the way it handles canvas. Every stitcher has their favorite, I guess.
Which island are you on? I'm from 'Lutra (but been in Florida for lotsa years). Ya no da vey, eh?
June
I'm on Abaco. Most of my travels take me to Florida. Never been to 'Lutra but want to some day.
Quote from: Grebo on September 13, 2013, 02:24:56 am
Hi, I bought the SR as well.
I wanted a machine that I could move about if necessary. For holidays ( yes I am that sad ) visiting friends who always have that 'little' thing that needs fixing. ( dinghy covers / jeep back ) Rest of the time it's set up as my dedicated binder, so it's really earning it's keep. It's also the only heavy weight zig zag I have which has been right handy on occasion.
If you are thinking of trying v138, remember that means less on the bobbin & more changes, doesn't bother me to much as I am a pretty slow sewer anyway, but could be really annoying if you are a bit speedy.
I have also gotten through a few binders & currently I am using the 1" swing away sold by SR, it's been the best so far.
Happy stitching.
Suzi
I was thinking the same thing when I decided to go with the sailrite. It's portable, can handle most if not all canvas work, and can be a great dedicated binder later on.
I never had any luck with binders. The straight binder just couldn't handle an inside curve and the right-angle binder would jam up with Sunbrella binding because it's so stiff off the reel. I suppose if I opened up the "wings" more the binding would have fed better, but I got so frustrated trying to get it all to work it just sits in a box with odd sewing machine parts I've bought over the years. I've also seen my share of replacement canvas where the previous sewer didn't catch the edge of the fabric in close enough and there are large sections here and there where the binding has shredded the edge of the fabric and come off. I just sew binding with a regular foot and no binder.
And Island, if you know a Sawyer, Russell, Albury or Lowe, you've met one of my cousins ;-)
June
This I hope isn't breaking the subject matter, but it relates possibly in that I had a problem sewing what appeared to me to be acrylic. The problems were at random the seam would knot up, leaving a nasty seam. Plus, the tension settings on the machine were way off for the material, bottom was too loose (for vinyls the ajustments looked good).
Like I said it looked like arylic material. I was shortening a relatively large barbeque cover a few inches.
Oh well, I got it done and examined the seam, it was unaccetable. Now, I have to figure out if it is the machine adjustments (take up spring or?) or simply the needle was (is) dull. All happened at the end of the day. Now, it back to checking the machine out. The thread used was # 92 poly and needle is #20. Frustrating! Oh, my stitch length was about 4 per inch.
The only clue to start with is I need to check take up spring adjustment. I had been working with that (but it checked out on vinyls - some three layers).
I am not experienced enough with sewing these outdoor acrylics, It can't be the thickness, it is just a grill cover (not boat cover weight IMHO). The factory used a double needle to turn a 3/4 inch hem which looked fine.
What do you guys think? Keep it simple for a dummy.
BTW, wouldn't it be a coincidence if you two were remotely related ( Islanding sewing and June)!
Regarding binders, they can be machined or built to work, but those that do are usually tweeked by special machinist efforts. In the automotive world they accommodate buityful work. But, every folder engineer tells me the same, they have to be set up and calibrated, or literally built for the specific materials and machine. I guess I should qualify that I am referencing right angle binders not a folder. In past years they were not cheap, ranged from $300 to to something higher. Well worth it if because if they work, out put is perfect and at a much higher rate. Something else, to contact one of these type of services one will be advised to ask a current factory who sets up or builds their right angle binders.
All that is probably worth what you just paid for it! LOL, It is common sense that those who make and sell volumes of bound older car OEM type carpets do it with perfection and fast. So, there must be something to what I have experienced and been told.
Problem regarding precision attachments, is it is like new furniture, those who go to buy "price" drives everything. Apparently that can lead to disappointments in obtaining equipment, same as it does in procuring new furniture. It is for the most part a bit of "junk" but it is also cheap. Don't miss read me, new furniture is also produced from higher technology but other things they have to do to meet prices does take out quality. (different subject I know)
Doyle
Quote from: JuneC on September 13, 2013, 07:01:52 pmAnd Island, if you know a Sawyer, Russell, Albury or Lowe, you've met one of my cousins ;-)
June
I'd say there's a pretty good chance we're related. My family is full of Lowes, Sawyers, some Russells and possibly Alburys. I'm not really up to date on it. I meet people all the time who say, you look like so and so, are you related? Yes? I'm your cousin or great aunt, etc.
DB, thoughts on your stitching conundrum:
A 20 needle and 92 thread seams like major overkill on a suspected acrylic that isn't boat/awning weight, also way too long a stitch for a good result on a lighter weight fabric. Walking foot machines can "eat" lighter weight goods if the needle and thread aren't properly sized and the stitch length isn't shortened. For yuks, perhaps you could thread up with 69 and an 18 needle and play around with tension settings on a scrap of the fabric. I've also found that lighter thread prefers a looser tension... not sure, but suspect that it has to do with the "walk" of the feed mechanism which can force too much cloth under the needle too rapidly.
I'm working on "slipcovers" for dining room chairs and have taken my Juki walking foot from 138 and a 20 needle to a 16 needle and 46 thread. I've cut the stitch length considerably and backed the tension on the bobbin case and the top thread off, too. Results are very good!
Quote from: DB link=topic=12614.msg101977#msg10197But, every folder engineer tells me the same, they have to be set up and calibrated, or literally built for the specific materials and machine. I guess I should qualify that I am referencing right angle binders not a folder. In past years they were not cheap, ranged from $300 to to something higher. Well worth it if because if they work, out put is perfect and at a much higher rate. Something else, to contact one of these type of services one will be advised to ask a current factory who sets up or builds their right angle binders.
I have a right angle binder that I don't use isn't it just a folder also as it folds in a different way?
I think we need to specify the difference between a "folder" and a "binder".
To me, a "folder" is an attachment that neatly folds something in half over the raw edge of the fabric that is fed through it. Therefore, pre-fold binding is fed through a folder. I have a 3/4" right angle swingaway folder (it folds pre-fold acrylic binding over the raw edge of the work).
A "binder" is a specialized folder that is designed to take a bias run of goods (with 2 raw edges) and not only fold it in half but ALSO fold the raw edges under so the finished bound edge is neat, clean, and finished. I have a right angle binder that will take 1 1/2" raw bias and fold both raw edges under while at the same time fold the bias in half over the raw edge of the piece I wish to bind. This sort of set up is generally "dedicated"; to get a good result you usually have to have a feed dog that permits the binder to be set into the machine bed. And you generally have to have a presser foot that is cut away to allow the folder to be nestled in close to the needle.
I am fussy about terms (not news to any of you) but using the proper terminology makes it easier to describe what you have, what you wish to have, and it's easier for the rest of us the help when something isn't quite right.
Regarding the screw up on the large barbeque grill, I want to go back and insure the machine is set up properly.
I wish the material could be shown to you guys. It is not real thin and relatively stiff. Am I ok to call it acrylic? I am not the one to ask on some of these outside covers. Let me check some things on my machine and get back on what happens.
This thing about binders and folders. My experience is auto trim. You don't use a folder on carpet. A special engineered binder, the better the engineering better results or better capability.
Like Bobbin stated, a right angle binder, a very specialized setup, it includes several changes to the machine as well. Feed plate is unique to the special feed dogs, also feet themselves are of special design. Much difference between the two for a folder is mounted in front of the machine and folds whatever you want to fold, edge of a shirt for example. A folder would never do the job of binding automoive carpet. That job requires "right angle binder" and all the machine modifications being talked about.
If a task of folding a srip of something around an edge of something through a folder, then a folder is being used to apply binding. Binding usually has one or both edges pre folded.
I can see how there are small differences in understanding.
Doyle
Quote from: DB on September 14, 2013, 08:47:35 pm
Regarding the screw up on the large barbeque grill, I want to go back and insure the machine is set up properly.
I wish the material could be shown to you guys. It is not real thin and relatively stiff. Am I ok to call it acrylic? I am not the one to ask on some of these outside covers. Let me check some things on my machine and get back on what happens.
This thing about binders and folders. My experience is auto trim. You don't use a folder on carpet. A special engineered binder, the better the engineering better results or better capability.
Like Bobbin stated, a right angle binder, a very specialized setup, it includes several changes to the machine as well. Feed plate is unique to the special feed dogs, also feet themselves are of special design. Much difference between the two for a folder is mounted in front of the machine and folds whatever you want to fold, edge of a shirt for example. A folder would never do the job of binding automoive carpet. That job requires "right angle binder" and all the machine modifications being talked about.
If a task of folding a srip of something around an edge of something through a folder, then a folder is being used to apply binding. Binding usually has one or both edges pre folded.
I can see how there are small differences in understanding.
Doyle
my bad
I bought this call a right angle binder with swingaway not shown here it folds sunbrella 3/4" binding once that has no raw edges they are prefolded and glued. it fold it backwards first then ormal on the canvas easy for inside curve but too awkward for me
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRisqseifpi_sB7vAN5gR2k9pRL-ANE1jJfIvmgkGSJBma9_vLmQQ)
ive used for 20 years with easy my suisy style folders also sold as binders from the co it also folds the same pre folded raw edge 3/4" binding once
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT875lpt5kQv62VwTz-LmcwaEOR88uwQlj5rlHzLqf3lFe-j2HTZQ)
Understandable that using the equipment shown would be awkward. The equipment can be called just about anything, but to be effective more is required than a piece of folded metal, according to the task of binding old style auto carpets. Manufacturers who did that kind of work, did it with modifications to the machines plus a precision machined right angle binder. If you insist call it a right angle folder.
Mike will your equipment reproduce OEM style binded carpet, with 90 degree turns rapidly to perfection. That equipment is literally amazing. Understandable thought, manufacturers do things fast and consistant or they are out of business.
I recall a auto/boat upholstery shop a few miles away who spent the money to set up a dedicated binding station with the right angle equipment. The tech set up service did remove the standard feed dogs, feet, and feed plate on that job and replace it with right angle required equipment. It wasn't cheap but worth the price to save labor and do the job right on auto restoration and his marine work which included a lot of covers.
The shop owner showed it to me and it was hooked up to a 111W155 Mike. It was sweet, wish I had it. I understand he was getting up in age and had to become an employee in the airline restoration work to get health insurance coverage which he needed. Now, talking about it, his business closed and his brother who had a same type of business about an hour away also went out of business. I wonder what happened to that equipment, be great if one could track it down. Their father also spent a career in custom trim work and taught the two boys the trade.
Oh I just remembered, those specialty machine shop guys who were good at setting up a binding capability on a machine some years ago were located in California. Can't remember their business title. It wasn't something you could buy from a magazine. When they took work, it was much more profitable to service a big manufacturer needing a larger number of workstations set up.
Another name of the past of the same technical service capacity that may or may not be in business today was Tennessee Attachments.
Bottom line if the need is relatively large and must be consistent, they are the go to types, otherwise you aren't going to get there.
Since this has become a discussion, someone with heavy factory work sewing other items, clothing perhaps, might be able to shed more light on this issue.
I have a few folders and they don't help me much, they are more of one size fits all and have ended up in a drawer.
Doyle