I have a customer with a 25' tri-toon that wants a custom cover, bimini top, and boot, and she wants it in yellow. I typically use Aqualon or Harbor Time and niether come in yellow anymore. Was hoping to find something besides Sunbrella. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Tim
Just curious, what have you got against Sunbrella? I think it makes a darn fine cover. And they have a cheaper line, too...Sunbrella Surlast.
I did wwnt gellow sunbrellamdue to cleaning
Yellow is as baskd as white to i used yellow weathermax on my larson. Ive used surlast. But this is alot stonger it feels then surlast and was redily avsilavle at miami. I used to use surlast for icheap dealer costs.
The customer does not want to pay for Sunbrella and Surlast is either 6 or 7.5 oz. I would like at least a 9oz fabric.
Tim:
Contact MiamiMike and ask him whats available in Recacril. Tell him your looking at R-554 - 60 " which is yellow. Recacril is much cheaper then Sunbrella and is a much better product. The weave ( and yarns ) are superior to Sunbrella. It wont stretch or shrink and has a better finish I think. I love the hand and how it machines too.
Sunbrella used to be the cats meow in marine fabric. It is now a has been. Old technology, cheaper yarns and a weave process that sucks by allowing stretch and shrinkage. They really cheapened it up. I see this stuff constantly and the Sunbrella from the late 90's and early 2000's was awesome. But it is nothing like todays stuff.
Recacril has the same warranty - 5 years. If you want to use a premium fabric check out Sattler. That is what I use on my toppers. That stuff is awesome. Talkoing about an awesome hand and machine capabilities. It sews and creases like a dream. Never had an issue with it. It is manufactured in Sweden using the best yarns available in the world and their weave process is dynamite - no shrinkage or stretching. It is about a dollar more then Recacril but still less then Sunbrella. Sattler and recacril is what is being used in Europe. Recacril BTW is manufactured in Spain using the same weave process as Sattler.
Three of the top commercial awning manufacturers in the USA have dropped Sunbrella from their lines. They now use Recacril or Sattler. People base their opinions of Sunbrella on their reputation from years past. It is NOT the same fabric it used to be which is the reason why so many are dropping their use of it.
Miami Corp is a direct importer of Rec and Sat which means no brokers or middle men to worry about nor counterfeit issues. It goes right from Recacril or Sattler factories to their warehouse. Read my story in the business section of the forum about whats going on in the fabric world. It is a frigging mess.
Chris
o use a lot of recacril also and outdura also u believe satler make outdura buti really like the weathermax 80 from Miami also heres some good info http://www.weathermaxfabric.com/FAQ.php but don't buy it here ;
they don't want to pay for good fabric 9 estimate your probably going to need 34 35 yards and cheap vs good material is about $140 savings is it really worth it to them the material is the minor cost..
id ne around $1700 and I never tell the customer the cost of the fabric vs labor
I've been using Recacril for cockpit and mooring covers. Handles better and holds up better than Sunbrella. Even though the weight is virtually the same between the two, the Recacril feels stronger than Sunbrella.
Also starting to use Recacril for bimini and enclosure tops. But, it has to be sewn a little different since it does not stretch like Sunbrella.
Thanks folks! I am getting my account set up with Miam Corp and will look into the Racacril.
Quote from: regalman190 on February 28, 2013, 04:44:08 am
I've been using Recacril for cockpit and mooring covers. Handles better and holds up better than Sunbrella. Even though the weight is virtually the same between the two, the Recacril feels stronger than Sunbrella.
Also starting to use Recacril for bimini and enclosure tops. But, it has to be sewn a little different since it does not stretch like Sunbrella.
More and more marine / canvas people are dropping Sunbrella and going to Recacril or Sattler. So your not alone. But you need to educate your customers as to the reasons why. I had some customers demand Sunbrella and after discussions they wanted the Recacril.
I think Rec and sat is a win/win. I increase my margins and give the customer a superior fabric.
Chris
I get customers asking for sunbrella sometimes because of the 10 year warranty and sometimes because sunbrella offers a color closer to what they want than any of the others. Then there is the customers who want it just because its the only name they have heard of when it comes to fabric. I havent tried recacril yet but have been wanting to.
QuoteThen there is the customers who want it just because its the only name they have heard of when it comes to fabric.
That's exactly it ; It's the original synthetic "canvas" and was well marketed. The same way that everyone rides their "skidoo" even if it says Yamaha on the side.
ya Darren and its a waverunner >)
ive had a number of people specifically complain how there sunbrella cover shrunk 3 " on a 24' boats cockpit cover and wgeb they see they look almost the same as the old ive had to no trouble switching them
outdura is a great canvas also I think its made by Satler also Mojo
Lotta sunbrella hate going on in this thread. I think sunbrella's gone for a poop recently myself, but thats only my opinion. I have no actual facts to back it up. We still sell quite a lot of sunbrella and are slow to change horses to be honest. It's worked for a number of years and customers have (almost always) been more than happy with it.
Quote from: Mojo on February 28, 2013, 10:09:04 am
I had some customers demand Sunbrella and after discussions they wanted the Recacril.
I could make a customer want denim backed vinyl. That doesn't mean they'll be happy with it. I know nothing about Recacril (including how to pronounce it) Anybody know what it's marketed under in Canada?
We've been trying out Tempotest. Only black so far, we want to see how it goes over a few years before we do anything rash. I'm putting it on my boat. It seems thicker/stronger than sunbrella but that's pretty easy to achieve really. Put it through an extra chemical bath and voila! I have stood under a new tempotest top in a driving rain and saw mist coming through the weave. I've stood under a new sunbrella top in the same instance and seen similar things.
I have no site-able facts to back up my statements. Sunbrella phoned me at the shop after a sunbrella bashing thread on here. That gives me hope that they care about the problems. Unless it's in my mind black sunbrella has gotten thicker in the last year. We could switch horses and start selling tempotest or stamoid or denim backed vinyl but it's nice to not have to change their minds when they come in wanting sunbrella.
Mojo- I looked through the Business section and didn't notice any fabric threads in a brief look. How about a link? Or a link to any other resources backing up your claims? To be honest your posts read to me as pretty spammy without any documentation.
o think any breathable fabric in a heavy rain will see mist under it ive seen this here also and we get some good soakers here in the summer. even my new weathermax 80 breathable canvas I saw this last summer
That's what I was trying to say mike. It's likely impossible to have a fabric that has every attribute you want with none of the draw backs you don't like. Nothing's perfect, you have to find what works for you and what you like using.
I wonder about your customers complaining about shrinking Sunbrella are right in blaming the fabric. I've seen many tops we've made that appear to have shrunk but its actually the reinforcement that's shrunk. We use rubber waterstop and when you nip it every few inches it fits again. I've seen webbing shrink similarly. And it makes me wonder if they put their top in the washer and dryer.
Wow. I havent been on here in a while and I just read this thread. Just got an education on 2 products. I will be looking into them myself. Thanks for the education on Recacril and sattler. Sorry if I hijacked the thread.
I've only made one boat cover from Recacril (my own boat) and I wasn't impressed, but that's not to say it's worse than Sunbrella. For sure, it ravels much worse than Sunbrella. You really need to cut it with a hot knife or bind the seams immediately. Any handling leaves loose threads everywhere. It didn't retain it's water repellancy for long, but I'm not sure it's not from environmental chemicals - it was in a boat yard. Sunbrella might have been just as bad or worse. As for Sattler, I can't deal with 45" or 48" or whatever fabric. Until they start weaving 60" I'll leave it be.
June
I like Recacril June you need tio try outdura http://www.sattler-ag.com/outdura/en/
ive used yards of it its great to work with ive got it in my t top testing over time myself
it is 60" I plan to make a mooring cover soon.
We bought a whack of outdura at an auction a year or so ago. Pretty much gone now. It worked fine. Seemed to be real stretchy on the bias and the binding went wonky. Seemed to stretch quite a bit on install. Which was good really because it was easy to stretch out any wrinkles. Frayed more than Sunbrella even when heat cut. Overall though it was okay. Seemed like you could see more light through it than sb? I read its a thicker yarn which would account for that. No complaints from customers and really that's the only important measurement.
QuoteI've seen many tops we've made that appear to have shrunk but its actually the reinforcement that's shrunk
I've seen the same thing. I use 1" poly web and centre fold binding.
I've only used outdura once and had a wierd problem. On the bow cover I cut one piece up the roll and one across the roll. they showed up as two completely different shades of blue when I sewed them together.I had to order in more fabric and redo the bow cover.
Ive had that mistake even with sunbrella darren. I think it the different shade from the sun on the different angled ciber ive. Got s pic on my laptop that shows it on a black cover.
Kinda like s ballfielg when they mow in a crisscross pattern
I did a bow cover in Burgundy and did half cut along the roll and half across. When I installed in the sun it looked like I used two different colors. It' s caused by the weave direction. Also found colors can vary between 46" and 60".
And I found that nylon webbing does shrink. So now I only use Poly webbing.
8) So it isn't just me. Kewl !!I thought maybe I just had a gotten a bad piece because I cut Sunbrella that way all the time.
QuoteI found that nylon webbing does shrink. So now I only use Poly webbing.
Even poly can shrink. I don't know why it's "hit and miss" though. One will/most won't ???
We once ran short of poly and used nylon on a few boats until we restocked. They all came back; they had shrunk that badly.
Ya the old colour change due to orientation effect. Sucks. We've been accused of using the wrong colour on parts. Nope, just trying to squeak out a top with too little fabric. Some colours are way worse than others. Happens to us most on convertible tops with the roll back front. The sides cut a different direction to save fabric and you don't really notice till its outside in the sun. OOPS!
QuoteI don't know why it's "hit and miss" though. One will/most won't ???
I think the customers aren't telling use the whole story. I was at the laundromat one day and saw a guy put a top in the washing machine. I tried to tell him it was a bad idea, but he knew everything so I walked away.
Its kind of like the guy who comes back with a new top and says the fabric is really cheap and it 'Just ripped'. Then you find out later from his neighbour on the dock he fell through it trying to get in all pissed up.
Hello all. Acrylics are nice but harder to keep clean to a point. I would use the weathermax 80. Light 8oz but stronger than acrylic. Price is 25% less as well. Well depends on what you pay for acrylics. Now we offer three acrylics Recacril, Outdura and Sattler. All will do the job for you. I might be late on this one but I spoke my 2 cents.
Okay reading the rest after the fact. Mike Outdura is Outdura, they make in in North Carolina. Sattler did buy them and they are updating the systems. They have hired people as well. Outdura is a little like the sun}#%^*a. But is is a true 9.25oz fabric. :o
Thanks
We once ran short of poly and used nylon on a few boats until we restocked. They all came back; they had shrunk that badly.
[/quote]
by poly do you mean polypropylene or polyester?
I use polypropeleene.
I love the weathermax 80 verry eary to clean even greese off info say you can use bleach
Used it on one of my boat
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy102/Mike8560/larson/F508C959-7E7A-4B34-A6C5-F1758B3C4AED-1985-0000026B572B54DE.jpg
Mike what is it made of. Not acrylid a polyester. Nylon??
Quoteby poly do you mean polypropylene
yes ---polypropylene.
1. WHAT EXACTLY IS SATURAMAX™ YARN?
SaturaMax™ is Unifi's family of solution dyed yarns, produced in a wide array of saturated colors.
Perfect for a variety of end-uses, SaturaMax™ has superior color consistency, light fastness characteristics and is bleach cleanable. The color process used to create SaturaMax™ saves several gallons of water per pound of yarn produced, making it environmentally friendly.
2. WHAT IS AN OTTOMAN WEAVE AND HOW DOES IT IMPROVE THE FABRIC DURABILITY?
An Ottoman weave is a combination of Plain weave and Basket weave, allowing WeatherMax™ to offer the best combination of strength, durability, and stability. It gives WeatherMax™ its firm feel and a very subtle ribbed texture, refined to the eye and luxurious to the hand.
3. WHY DO YOU HAVE A WEATHERMAX 80™ AND A WEATHERMAX LT™?
The 80 or LT following WeatherMax™ are indications of its weight. For example 80 is 8.0 oz/sqyd and LT is 6.5 oz/sqyd.
The reason for both weights is to provide our customers with the best product for their application. Typically, WeatherMax 80™ is recommended for applications where strength and durability are the main concern (Marine, Awning), while WeatherMax LT™ is used where protection from the environment is the main concern (Covers, cushions, Umbrellas).
4. WHY DOES WEATHERMAX LT™ HAVE A DIFFERENT WEAVE?
WeatherMax LT™ has a different weave to make it lighter for applications where protection from the environment is the main concern.
5. WHAT DOES SOLUTION DYED YARN MEAN AND HOW DOES IT MAKE AN OUTDOOR FABRIC BETTER?
A solution dyed yarn is a yarn where the color has been added into the polymer before it is extruded into a yarn form.
Because the color is part of the polymer, the fade resistance of a solution dyed yarn is superior to the fade resistance of package dyed yarn and piece dyed fabric. The solution dyed polymers in WeatherMax™ have been especially chosen for their ability to resist fading and retain fabric strength.
6. WHAT IS THE HYDROMAX™ FINISH?
The HydroMax™ finish is a highly water repellent finish that gives WeatherMax™ the ability to protect against heavy rain while keeping its breatheability and dimensional stability.
An anti-microbial component is added to the finish to prevent mildew growth on the fabric. The HydroMax™ finish is extremely durable, providing many positive benefits, such as breatheability, resistance to mildew and dirt, and its ability to maintain a cooler temperature.
7. WHY DOESN'T WEATHERMAX™ HAVE A BACK COATING?
WeatherMax™ does not have a coating to allow the fabric to breathe, so heat and water vapor can evacuate, which is essential in preventing mildew growth.
8. WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT IS GUARANTEED TO 1500 HOURS UV? HOW LONG WILL THIS LAST?
WeatherMax 80™ comes with a limited warranty of 5 years (1500 hours).
WeatherMax LT™ comes with a limited warranty of 3 years (1000 hours).
9. HOW DO YOU TEST TO 1500 HOURS?
The fabric is exposed to UV rays for 1500 hours and the resulting color is compared to the initial color and rated.
10. WHAT IS THE COLOR RATING AFTER 1500 HOURS AND HOW DOES THIS COMPARE TO ACRYLIC FABRICS?
After 1500 hours, on a scale from 1 to 5, the color rating is 4.5, the same as Acrylic fabrics.
Well Trivantage had some discontinued yellow Aqualon, so I went with what I'm used to working with.
(https://forum.upholster.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kloppenberg.us%2Flavy5.jpg&hash=d064a8459b484ffa8c0745164319923b)
http://www.kloppenberg.us/lavy5.jpg
By gosh thats Yeller feller. )
Chris
Tim,
That looks real nice. Has a real nice fit to it.
If you don't mind me asking, what did you charge for the cover? Take about 30 yards of 60" canvas?
Thanks Scott
Yeah, the boat has an extra long bimini top too, took every bit of 36 yards for the whole job. I was good and tired of yellow by the time this one was done!
Quote from: scott_san_diego on March 20, 2013, 06:46:42 am
Tim,
That looks real nice. Has a real nice fit to it.
If you don't mind me asking, what did you charge for the cover? Take about 30 yards of 60" canvas?
Thanks Scott
Well, when I bid the job I did not realize that the bimini was a six bow top and I thought I was ordering extra material at 36 yards. As it turned out, I had to use a few scraps to make the boot. The bill came to just under 1200. Not sure how that compares, but with the amount of time I had in this, I didn't come out that great.
Great looking cover! I like working with Aqualon, even though it's not a premium product, I haven't had any complaints about it wearing out too soon. For a large cover like that at least it doesn't weigh as much as a woven acrylic.
Oh, and you're not the only one who underprices covers. I've been at this for a long time now and I still do it regularly. I just keep overestimating my ability to produce a great looking cover in record time.
June
looks good tim nice shop too !
fyi here id get 1200 for the cover and 500 for a 4 bow and boot ive had that happen not realizing it a larger frame and just assumed
that reminds me ive got a similar cover less the forward deck to do soon
Quote from: Mike on March 20, 2013, 05:41:45 pm
looks good tim nice shop too !
fyi here id get 1200 for the cover and 500 for a 4 bow and boot ive had that happen not realizing it a larger frame and just assumed
that reminds me ive got a similar cover less the forward deck to do soon
Thanks Mike,
The shop is divided up so that boat would not fit inside and get the door down but I don't pay much rent so working out in the cold is a must.
my first shop in NH ii had to work on the boats outside so I ended up with a big tent to get out of the rain and a space heater for the winter