This past week was very busy, I upholstered furniture, repaired furniture frames, plus duplicated the original upholstery on a CAT seat, very sophisticated and expensive, then installed numerous parts in a vehicle,
In review, the conclusion is Americans have a problem, every thing I touched and wore was made in another country. You know, it is hard to ignore this hearing of the need for jobs.
No wonder employment is what it is, even all my clothes are foreign made. The TV I watch, same story.
Remember when the Hundi auto was not important? That too has changed.
How can this change with our labor rates? What is the shorter answer on the outcome of all this?
Doyle
I'd say the say the short answer (although hardest to implement) would be for the conscious person who notices these thing to go out of their way to shop for American made goods. When an item isn't available, contact a supplier, sales rep, company executive and make your requests known. Just like writing your government representatives, the more and more people who do this the more they will listen and provide what is asked for.
Kyle
Simple. Get rid of corporate tax and at the same time get rid of corporate welfare. If a corporation cant make it without government assistance than let them die. Get rid of unions who raise wages and benefits so high corporations cant afford to make a profit aka auto makers.
Get rid of lobbyist who own senators and congressmen. Were all living on a budget these days and the government needs to do the same thing. Governors and the President have term limits, why not senators, congressmen and representatives. In fact why not have a strictly volunteer congress, that would give some of those good old boys a heart attack.
Get rid of the the current tax code. How about a fair tax or a consumption tax. A lot of my customers are so worried about higher taxes and squeezing there dollar bills so hard there afraid to spend any of it.
Reform Social Security. There was a time when SS was needed, to help elder people get by in their latter years. I don't under stand why someone who makes $100,000 a year in retirement needs SS. And don't give me that BS how they "invested" into it so they deserve it. Most retired people far outlive the "investment" they made.
If we could free up the money people earn then they would have more money to spend and the economy would start rolling again.
Radical ideas? Hay I'm a radical guy.
Tough question to answer without getting "politcal", something we're not supposed to do on this forum. But, in the spirit of discussion I'll give my two cents worth and it will dip into the realm of political, because it really has to.
I don't disagree with the opinions expressed so far. But rather than getting rid of corporate taxes I think we should raise them! Here's how I see it: huge, multi-national corporations (they're now considered individuals by the Court) are able to outsource work that used to be considered skilled and provided generations with the ability to provide good incomes and sound, middle class lives for themselves. Lobbyists that prowl the halls of Congress are paid by those very corporations who have outsourced with impunity... outsourcing that added to their profits and profits on which they paid no taxes all the while adding to the roles of the unemployed (which costs taxpayers) or the underemployed. As those jobs were outsourced so were pension plans and corporate benefits for the hard working, blue collar retirees. But not for the executives with their private elevators and cafeterias.
I am all for "means testing" Social Security and Medicare. I'm also a proponent of raising the age at which those benefits can be collected. At its inception, SS was collected at 65, 3 yrs. beyond the average age of death in the USA! It was started as an insurance program to make sure people didn't starve in old age (think the Depression years), it was never intended to be the sole means of reitrement income! Nor was it intended to absolve workers from saving for themselves. The wealthy citizens of this country don't need either but by golly they're the first to howl about "fairness" and how much they paid into the system. It's important to consider that the rates paid into the system by those now collecting were considerably lower than the rates those still paying into it are at present. The Concord Coalition used to maintain that the average worker collects all the monies he paid into SS within 18 mos. of drawing his first benefit check. Moreover, SS is paid on the first 108-9K you earn, after that you don't pay that tax. I'm all for reworking the tax code in this country. But I'm no fool, the way things are now, everyone needs to have some skin in the fight, even those at poverty level! Consider also that the pool of workers paying into the syste is shrinking, so taxes will have to go up to maintain the status quo.
I would love to be able to buy American, but not if the quality is crummy. I loathe enriching multinationals that have fled our shores and abandonned our workers in favor of ever greater profits. leaving social chaos in their wakes. They need to pay up and consider it a cost of doing business and moving production to third world under regulated countries.
There are so many manufacturing jobs that have been outsourced to other countries simply because WE don't want them. Factories can't find competent workers for the meager wage they are willing to pay.
I firmly believe that if we brought ALL those jobs back to America, there wouldn't be enough takers to fill the positions.
Sure, we could lure workers if we raised wages, but then a $5 item would cost $20.
We can't have it both ways. We can't earn top wages, while paying bottom dollar prices at the register. I'm sure there's a happy medium. But in order to reach that middle ground, we as a society would have to eliminate a little thing called GREED.
Is Capitalism finally biting us in the butt?
I ask myself would I go and build a car factory, pay all the union benefits and be able to compete with a factory somewhere else that gets the work done cheaper and just as good?
Well, maybe not because the domestic consumers, on a scale, just aren't that loyal. "Price Sells"!
I have researched the subject of depression, recession, and business cycles and what is happening here and around the world is natural for capitalism. Prosperity cannot continue to go up infinitely. It has check points and may even crumble before dusting yourself off and going forward again.
We are seeking bottom at this point and the smarter we are about it the easier it will be to climb back on and enjoy the ride of a new cycle.
All points have merit,
Thanks,
Doyle
Quote from: bobbin on January 09, 2012, 01:08:03 pm
I would love to be able to buy American, but not if the quality is crummy. I loathe enriching multinationals that have fled our shores and abandonned our workers in favor of ever greater profits. leaving social chaos in their wakes. They need to pay up and consider it a cost of doing business and moving production to third world under regulated countries.
Bobbin I can feel the passion in the words you write. But I can not understand how raising taxes on mega corporations helps to keep them in this country. Or how it enriches the lives of people in this country. Especially when the government takes that money and squanders it on worthless projects like bridges to nowhere.
Lowering corporate taxes will force them to lower their prices through competition and in turn lower the price the consumer pays. The corporation sells more products and in the end pays more taxes than if we raise their taxes and they sold less product. Not to mention putting more people to work. Think cigarettes. The government keeps raising taxes to fund their pet projects but more and more people quit smoking and in the end the tax revenue is no higher than when they started. The biggest segment of the smoking population are lower income so it ends up being a poor tax. I'm not a smoker and getting more people to stop is a good thing but that's not my point.
Perfect example is Big Oil. Every one screams about obscene profits. But if you look at their profit margins you would wonder why everyone thinks they are such a good investment. The truth be known the government makes a bigger profit on oil than the oil companies.
Jobs will return when manufacturing does and that is highly dependent on cheaper labor. It is international competion going forward, not local.
During he interim, when is government going to get smaller, as industries have? The leaders in that department have a lot of work to do.
Doyle
I listened to an interesting story on my way to my first job this morning:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/12/145038754/the-history-of-factory-jobs-in-america-in-one-town
American workers have the highest productivity rate (widgets per person hour) in the world.
A few days ago, there was another story about the "hand made products" from China. Their point was with wages near zero, hand labor was less expensive than investing in equipment.
Yeah Hammer, it seems the more technology is advanced the more jobs are created. The younger generation really need to keep up. The people graduating high school today have never known a world without personal computers or the internet.
This is a complex issue on meany levels, I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I know some of the problems.
Our gov. used to have these things called tariffs, they were meant to protect American workers from low cost imports, they also generated revenue for the gov. we no longer enforce tariffs like we used to.
Our gov. gives tax incentives for manufactures to move over seas.
The junk we buy from China cost a third what an American product would cost, but we have to buy three of them to get one that works.
Most multinational corporations don't pay any taxes, its not the tax rates that need changing, but the loop holes.
Inflation does not mean things are going up in value, it means our money is becoming worth less.
The federal reserve is a private bank, our gov. barrows it's money from it at interest, that interest is never created, so the dept can never be paid, that is why we keep going deeper and deeper into dept. That is what our "taxes" really go to, to make payments on an unpayable debt, not the stuff we have been told.
Our gov. has the constitutional authority to coin money from Silver and Gold and spend it into the economy, no debt needs to be created, just this one act alone would boost our economy tremendously. It was one of the main reasons for the Revolutionary War, England wanted the colenest to stop using their own money and use the Pound. The prosperous colenest soon became poor under this rule. There were three attempts to set up a central bank in the U.S, each was a disaster for the American people. President Jackson shut down the bankers and he survived an attempt on his life. Lincoln and Kennedy were not so lucky. There are powerful people who want to keep things as they are because it works for them. Amschel Rothschild "give me control over a countries money and I care not who makes its laws" or something similar to that.
Quote from: sofadoc on January 09, 2012, 03:34:02 pm
We can't have it both ways. We can't earn top wages, while paying bottom dollar prices at the register.
Made me think of what always bugged me driving to work all my life..
I Alys made some , produced with my own hands that i could look at and say i did that. there are so many people that dint make anything paper pushers that dint produce anything but paperwork.
out of all the hands that it takes yo bring a product to you, one Guy had to make it. How many middle men were there? and insurance ? cant tough it but you pay for it.
Quote from: kodydog on January 12, 2012, 10:28:14 am
Yeah Hammer, it seems the more technology is advanced the more jobs are created. The younger generation really need to keep up. The people graduating high school today have never known a world without personal computers or the internet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LkusicUL2s
Thanks for the pick me up Mike, that was funny.
I AM NOT A NON CONTRIBUTING ZERO! I AM A HUMAN BEING!!!
lol
gene
Here's what I'm talking about corporate welfare. How can a company receive $500 million dollars in govern't loans, then claim bankruptcy and now they want to give out $500 k bonuses to remaining employes. How can you run a company into the ground then expect bonuses. Those loans were given with our money folks. Funny thing is a similar thing happened when we bailed out the banks.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/12/solyndra-reportedly-seeking-to-award-bonuses-to-remaining-employees/
I wonder if anyone besides Hammer. has listened to the week long series on business in the US that has been on Morning Edition on NPR? Additionally, there was a very interesting segment on The Diane Rehm Show yesterday, concerning the fracas in the Republican circle about Mitt Romney and Bain...
An interesting aside for Mike 802, I received the HBO series, "John Adams" for Christmas. In it is an interesting discussion of Alexander Hamiliton and the necessity, worth, and benefit of national debt. It is also interesting to note that following Andrew Jackson's elimination of the national debt our country was plunged into dreadful boom and bust fluctuations in our economy... the likes of which were only alleviated after the formation of the Federal Reserve nearly 100 yrs. later. I appreciate a good deal of things about Ron Paul, however his attachment to the gold standard is not one of them.
Bobbin: I have a little different prospective here than HBO http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/11thmarble.php He explains what I tried to above, only a little more eloquently.
As far as Ron Paul goes, I don't know if gold and silver is the best medium of exchange, but if you believe the constitution is the law of the land than any other currency is illegal, because it states that only gold and silver can be used. I would much rather have a value based currency over a faith based currency. Every nation that ever had a fiat currency collapsed and I think we are witnessing that right now in America. It is true that gold and silver value can be manipulated, but it is much easier to do it with a faith based currency. I was looking at a chart a while back that showed the value of the dollar has been reduced about 95% since the birth of the federal reserve.
You might get a kick out of this video. Caution some fowl language. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f09lw7FDWM
Mike, I hope you didn't think I was trying to insult you by recommending the "John Adams" series. I wasn't.
I found it interesting because it showed two of our "founding fathers" involved in a very basic discussion about how the nascent USA should proceed in its attempt to make its way in the greater world. What struck me was that they discussed it, something that no longer happens with any reqularity (let alone civility) in our faction-riven houses of Congress. I would urge you to read David McCullough's magnificent biography of John Adams. On my reading list is a biography of the brilliant Alexander Hamilton, truly a visionary and to whom our country owes more than the cursory mention he usually receives in the dumbed down history requirements taught in our public schools! There was far more to the man than his grisly, head-line death in a duel with Aaron Burr. As Andrew Jackson found after he eliminated the national debt!
I found the first link rather short sighted, thin on facts, and a bit too self-serving to be of much use, although I did get a chuckle out of the "dirty" link. However, it's important to note that the boom/bust cycles of the 19th. century were more frequent and oftentimes worse than any we suffered in the 20th. century, mostly because they were so frequent "recovery" was rarely possible. The fact that its greatest victims were usually immigrants or the poor is usually downplayed. And it's only fair to point out that the Great Depression had more to do with "trading on the margin" and lax capitalization requirements on banks; hence the bank closure put in place when the "bank runs" began to occur. That has been addressed, although I'm not sure the last go-round in '08 didn't underscore the need for a good deal more oversight. You should read David Wessel's "In Fed We Trust" for an excellent overview of the '08 meltdown.
As for the Constitution: it's a vascular document, as the amendments to it testify. You may not like all of them (neither do I or a lot of other people for that matter!), but the greater point is that nothing contained in it is carved in stone and that's why our country is so great and so interesting. If you feel so passionately about returning to a currency base in gold/silver/pinecones then you must vote in the person who'll be successful in ushering in an amendment to that fact. The rest of the world operates on a "faith based" currency; in fact, I think an argument could be made that any currency is basically "faith based". Do you envision a return to gold coins in lieu of paper currency? how would you handle the worldwide transfer of that gold/silver/pinecones? The logistics are monumental... you can't transfer gold/silver/pinecones that rapidly without a "faith based" system. I don't foresee that sort of change happening any time soon.
In point of fact, I think our troubles are less based in the creation of the Federal Reserve and the move away from the gold standard and more to do with uneven tax policy, too many "loopholes" (esp. for major corporations! and the wealthy/voters!), a military-industrial based economy, short-sighted foreign policy, and greed and laziness on too great a portion of our populace. There is plenty of blame to spread around, isn't there? We agree that our country is heading for a big "wake up call". You grow your own food, so do we. We don't carry debt here, either. And we daily wonder where we'll be on the day we die. Health care?? we have none... if we opt to purchase it we'll have to forefo retirement savings. We've opted to take our chances...
Bobbin, no I was not offended in anyway, I enjoy our talks and its nice to get a different prospective. The link I posted wasn't really meant to be a fact filled documentary, but rather a short simplified version of the bigger problem. Economist working for the powers that be, like to complicate the issue to the point everyone starts arguing over nit picky points and miss the fact that the whole system is a huge ponzi scheme. As I am sure you understand, the fed is run by a bunch of people, "owners" who may, or may not be American citizens, it is a private business which creates our money out of thin air. This money is lent to our government at interest, interest that was never created and can never be paid back.
This makes our currency backed by dept. The system works as long as there is a large enough amount of new money, or debt being created to pay on the old, but once the creation of new money slows down huge problems start to arise and the pyramid starts to collapse. To shore it up the fed prints more money, thus lowering the value of the money already in circulation, inflation. The real evil of this system is true wealth is transferred to those bankers at the top for next to nothing on their part, when a borrower cant pay the hard asset is acquired by the bank and for what, ink and paper. A lot of people have a child like trust in the gov. they think it is benevolent and is here to help us live good lives, unfortunately that trust is misplaced. The second evil of this system is explained in the quote I gave from Amschel Rothschild above, he meant that once he had control over a nations currency he controlled that nation, the nation was no longer sovereign. This is the real reason we have wars, the bankers want complete control, so they start a war, sell weapons to both sides, lend money to both sides to rebuild and both nations become indebted to the banks, thus controlled by the people who own the banks. In short the people of a nation indebted to the banks become slaves for the bankers. The nations greatest resource, its peoples ability to create and produce becomes indentured to the debt, debt that can not be paid. Yes most of the worlds economy's are based on fiat currency, the bankers have been busy, and this makes the mess we are in very troublesome, this also is the reason we are seeing signs of collapse all over the world, the euro is just handing on and if it goes, I think it might create a domino effect. It is true we cannot switch over to a value based currency overnight, I question if America even has the gold to do it, but regardless of what eventually becomes our medium of exchange, I think our nation should be responsible for it's creation, not a private entity, I think the gov. should spend the money in to circulation not barrow it into circulation. Obviously some kind of accounting and thus taxation would have to take place to keep the money supply from growing to the point that inflation takes over. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we have to have a monitory system based on precious metals, I think it is more important to have that system controlled by the people, for the benefit of the people, not a privet business with alliterative motives. Yes our constitution can be changed, but it takes a constitutional amendment to accomplish that, a very difficult undertaking.
I read somewhere that the boom and bust cycles of the 19th century were actually contrived by the bankers to sell the U.S into yet another central bank, which of course became the federal reserve. I wish I had that article at my finger tips, but unfortunately I do not at this time. The fed. actually came out and admitted that they caused the great depression of the 30's, unfortunately the safe guards put in place to assure it wouldn't happen again have been removed. The boom and bust cycles of the 20th century may not have been as frequent, but they have been just as damaging, if not more so. We have the S&L scandal, the dot com bubble, Barnie Maddoff, and the worst financial scandal in the history of the world, that makes all others pale in comparison, the mortgage backed securities fraud, unfortunately no one has gone to prison for that one, yet.
I agree that the rich and the big corporations do not carry their share of the tax burden, they are after all the ones who buy the congressmen who make the laws. But unfortunately it all comes back the the reality that the interest on the debt that was acquired when the money was borrowed into existence was never created, so it cant be paid, no matter how many taxes are levied.
My wife and I also grow as much of our food as possible, unfortunately I am a poor farmer. We try real hard, but end up having to tend to our business during times we should be weeding, or harvesting. To do it right it really has to take a front row seat in your life. I probably try to do to much and end up with less than if I scaled back and grew less. We continue to work at it and we are getting better, every year we have a larger harvest, but this means we have to spend more time canning and preserving, but it sure is nice this time of year to open up a can of organic produce right out of the garden. We do have health insurance, but it is about worthless, we are giving serious consideration about dropping it. We are learning how to be responsible for our own health. We have gone out on a limb and given some things a try that we were leery of at first, but they worked and now we use then religiously and feel we would only need a trip to the hospital if we suffered of some kind trauma. We also carry as little debt as we can get away with, but my wife and my son went through collage and my youngest son may return, so we are carrying that debt, still have a small mortgage on the house. I know what you mean about wondering what this will all come to. I can't even envision a retirement at this time, we save as much as we can and convert that into silver because I don't trust the dollar to hold it's value. If the system does collapse it is going to be bad, real bad, I don't know if anyone can really feel, or be prepared for that? I do support Ron Paul, but I don't know if they will let him win, or live if he does win. What ever happens, I think things are going to get very interesting.