I finished off a large project last week for a customer who ordered 6 awnings. he just contacted me this morning and said he had a problem on his big awning. He took some photos and sent them to me and I haven't a clue as to what the hell is going on with this Recacril. I have never seen or heard of anything like this.
Can you guys and gals look at this and let me know whats going on or if you have ever seen this ? I thought maybe it was the way it rolled on to the roller but you can see a definite cross hatch pattern all through the material.
Miami Mike is going to contact the factory once I get the awning back and find out what is going on. But I was hoping I could get some more information before I meet with the customer on Thursday. The material was fine when I handed it to him and it went straight to the dealer and was installed by them. Even if it was installed improperly I cannot see how this cross hatch pattern would come out. Typically you get big long creases not cross hatch patterns when installed improperly.
Thankfully Miami Corp stands behind their products and will back me on this job. This is where you are grateful for good customer service from your supplier.
I am dumbfounded.
Here are the pics:
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x200/throgmartin/Upholstery%20Projects/?action=view¤t=BadReacril-1.jpg (http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x200/throgmartin/Upholstery%20Projects/?action=view¤t=BadReacril-1.jpg)
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x200/throgmartin/Upholstery%20Projects/?action=view¤t=BadReacril3.jpg (http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x200/throgmartin/Upholstery%20Projects/?action=view¤t=BadReacril3.jpg)
Chris
W I've nit used recacril much but I've never seen that with anything sunbrella. Outdura ect
I've seen lighter marks o. Crease li e o. Cadet grey aquamarine sunbrella. That looks like bumps must be in thebweave. Did open thebpackave and it was like that or was it smoothe. He installed it. And then it happened ?
I'm certainly not an expert but just an observation here: The thing I noticed in the pictures is that the puckering continues right thru the seam and matches up, this gives me the idea that it's caused by an outside influence since it would be almost impossible to sew two pieces together and have imperfections line up!
It was perfect when I handed it to him. No puckers, bubbles, etc.
He said he went back and stretched it and installed awnings tension flaps but the cross hatch is till there.
He is wetting it down and allowing it to dry to see what happens.
By the looks of it it seems to be a weave problem. If the pucker in the seam was causing it there would be straight lines and creases I would think.
Chris
I use Recacril a lot. I've never seen that before. I agree with Big John. Had to be something else after it was installed.
Is there another fabric or protection under or over it when rolled up?
Quote from: regalman190 on August 29, 2011, 09:42:42 am
I use Recacril a lot. I've never seen that before. I agree with Big John. Had to be something else after it was installed.
Is there another fabric or protection under or over it when rolled up?
Not that I am aware of.
I will be inspecting it later this week to see up close what the deal is. It all is just to dang weird.
Chris
he didn't see a problem before he installed it ?
Are you going to inspect in on thenmotorhosme
perhaps regal onto somthing cashing it when rolled
QuoteI haven't a clue as to what the hell is going on with this Recacril.
I've never seen recacil , but if the other 5 are fine and I assume they were cut from the same lot,I'd wonder if they have put something on it while/after installing it that had a chemical reaction to it.
Is there a paint/body shop at the dealer by chance? I just wonder if some solvent based material was in the air that settled on the awning the rolled up to bake it in?
I let some thinner get on some Top Gun before and it distorted the fabric, just not in that type of pattern before. If it was really hot and some thinner over spray got on it then was immediately rolled up where it couldn't evaporate properly, I could see it doing that to that type of material.
Of course I don't know for sure. Just a suggestion????
Hope it all works out well.
Kyle
If you look at the cross weave impression it is heavy then lighter in a
repeating pattern going from the header to the roller. It also looks like
the impressions are finer near the roller which is the first to go on the
roller. My guess is the roller is cross-hatch grooved or raised to grab the
fabric and help it roll up evenly.
To my observation, Recacril has a soft hand. This might allow it to crease
into the grooves of the roller under tension.
If the awnings originally were made of vinyl I'm sure the Recacril is thicker.
If the roller is in an enclosed tube it could be there isn't enough space in
the tube for the thicker Recacril and it's getting compressed.
Could also be the old "warp v. weft". If you had run the seams from the
roller to the header The problem may not have presented itself.
I don't do awnings but I remember doing cockpit covers on boats with the
seams running across the width of the boat. After a while the covers would
look like big top tents becuase the fabric would stretch. Change the method
to running the seams from front to back and the problem was solved
SntISn't thebroller at the outside of thebawning and it roll up with the csnvas to the camper ?
Recacril has a hard hand. It is a stiff material, fairly thin and a lot like Sunbrella except because of its weave wont stretch like Sunbrella. I had the old awning that came off this roller and it showed no distortions.
The roller is a hollow piece of aluminum with a couple grooves in it to slide the polyrod into. Other then those two grooves it is all smooth.
If the seam I was sewing was causing this then it seems it would leave one horizontal imprint from one side to the other. I cannot sew the seam horizontaly because when it was rolled up ( 9 ft ) it would roll on top of itself and cause a bulge the size of a cantaloupe. It would never fit inside the awning roller tube cover.
I am just at a loss until I see it. Miami Mike is at a loss as well and has never seen this either. I may take some scrap pieces of this material and sprinkle some thinner on it to see how it reacts.
Chris
Chris
Must be that flat felled seam you used (only joking)
It looks like it has been hit with overspray as Kyle suggests or did the owner treatit with sealer or something?
I have seen this on synthetic materials before and it looks similar
I am surprised it has happened on canvas but it must be attacking the synthetic side of the canvas
Allan
Yea, I was only offering possibilities. The Recacril I've felt had a softer hand than Sunbrella.
Maybe I was thinking about an existing top I was looking at and it had softened from use.
I did a search on awning rollers and all I came up with was what you said. Smooth tubes
with some grooves.
Well, I tried.
I appreciate all your help.
I will be looking at it this Thursday to see if I can tell what happened. In the meantime I am going to take some scrap pieces and do my own little test with different solvents to see if I can get it to do the same thing.
He is being real nice about it thankfully. Some customers can be a real PITA and climb down your throat. He has been pleasant and easy going and agreeable to everything I have suggested so far.
Chris
Quote from: Mojo on August 29, 2011, 09:26:54 am
He said he went back and stretched it and installed awnings tension flaps but the cross hatch is till there.
Chris
from this statement it sounds like the pucker were present before he installed it
Treied to streach them out.
This would point to it not being a problem from when it was rolled althought the pattern was more prononce then got lighter
No idea Mike. I am completely lost on this issue. Like I said before I have seen puckers and wrinkles before on awnings and they normally will present long creases. This is a pattern that seems like it came right out of the fabric itself. It is to symmetrical to be caused by a pucker or wrinkle. And that cross hatch pattern repeats itself throughout the fabric.
This is one strange occurrence for sure.
Chris
Strange for sure. Have you taken some scrap and set it in the blazing Fl sun for a couple of days and see what happens. If nothing happens at your house it must be something going on there.
You know this is going to sound real stupid, but some of those awning rollers and tracks have a sheet metal screw that goes into the area with the spline in it to hold the fabric in place. Could the fabric caught up just a little on a not completely removed screw causing the damage you see?
No idea John. I will find out more when I can see it and feel it with my own eyes and hands. :)
Chris
QuoteYou know this is going to sound real stupid,
That's not outside the realm of possibility at all. Has anyone got a scrap of recacril they can try to pull the weave on before poor old Chris pulls his other tow hairs out? :P
I met with my customer and inspected the awning. It was just like the picture and looked like it was quilted. It is for sure the fabric. It did it on all of the awnings I made except two which were cut from a different roll.
Recassens and Miami are standing behind it and making it right. The customer was real nice and understanding about it. I thought maybe it was an installation deal or environmental deal ( overspray from a paint booth at the dealer ). Turns out the patio awning was installed at the dealer. The coach was then taken back to his storage facility and the rest installed there by the customer. 2 different installers and 2 different locations.
It is NOT a roll up problem or adjustment issue. The pattern is to symetrical. So back to the machine to make some more awnings. :( I cannot believe the guy actually ordered solar screens from me today after all the problems with his awnings. :)
I am sending some of the fabric to Miami Mike for Miami to inspect and then I believe it is getting shipped back to the mill in Spain for testing. Thank God I have an awesome supplier and manufacturer to work with. This could have ended up costing me a lot of money.
Chris
Chris
It is good to see that it is working out in everyone's favour
It is good to have manufacturers and suppliers that stand by their products
Not a common event in this economic environment these days
Allan
Miami Mike and Recassens could have easily blamed me, thumbed their nose up at me and walked away. Instead they are standing behind me and supporting me and making things right for me on my end.
I would have never gotten this kind of service through Rochford or maybe another supplier. Miami has been in the loop from the beginning and offering help and advice. I have also learned a great deal about canvas with this project. Mike is an expert on this subject and has toured many mills watching it being made. He knows the entire process and knows canvas. he has been great in educating me and answering questions.
I do not want to just order fabric and stitch it and send it out the door. I want to know as much as I can about the materials I use so I can better educate my customers. The fibers, weaving technology, etc. I seem to not be able to get enough of this information.
Mike has a philosophy which is: " The better your reputation and the more successful you are the better it is for us ". Mike rocks and I cannot say enough good things about him. This project has been a real downer for me and I have beat myself up over it because I took it personal. I like my work to be of the highest quality and when something like this happens it kills you. I know it was nothing I did but it makes you doubt yourself. Worse yet this customer is a shaker and mover in the RV association I do work for so I had to go above and beyond the call of duty for him.
Thank God this is all going to come out good. Mike has really helped me keep myself together through this. Which brings me to my fathers old saying: " surround yourself with good people and good things happen to you ". :)
Chris
Just out of curiousity, are you getting compensated for your time to remake the awnings?
Not surprised the customer asked for additional work. The had a problem and you went
to lengths to find the cause. I'm sure they are appreciating your effort just as you appreciate
Mike and Recassens efforts.
EI'VE never heard of a fabris maker reembursing the labor to redosome bad canvas.
And I. My time I havnt heard of other shop till the net of fabfric going bad except for strataglass
Quote from: Mojo on September 02, 2011, 06:22:28 am
Miami Mike and Recassens could have easily blamed me, thumbed their nose up at me and walked away. Instead they are standing behind me and supporting me and making things right for me on my end.
With every difficulty comes the means to overcome it.
Quote from: DBR1957 on September 02, 2011, 10:53:13 am
Just out of curiousity, are you getting compensated for your time to remake the awnings?
Generally, warranty doesn't reimburse labor, but if there is a known problem with the product they will. No experience with Recasens, but Glen Raven reimbursed me for about $2 grand worth of labor on a LARGE cover I made about 5 years ago that went from Cadet Grey to Pea Soup Green in less than a year ... not in cash, but in free product. They knew of the problem, recalled all the defective Cadet Grey they could, but I just happened to get my hands on 30 yards of it from an authorized distributor and made and large, complex cover that cost me weeks of time and my customer a bunch of money. They honored their warranty, without question, and I expect Recasens will as well.
June
NeJune I've never had a problem like that.
Did you get the canvas from Tri v or MH ? And did you recieve the free fabric all from the same dist? Just wonedering how it worked?
The vast majority of manufacturers state in their warranty that labor is not covered, only materials. Mike is already in touch with Recassens and they are going to supply me with all new material. I have a month to turn the new awnings around since my customer is out in his coach on a trip out of State.
Having 30 days will allow me to work this into my schedule and I am just now heading into a slow time so it will work out good.
I do not expect any reimbursement for labor as I know the warranty policies of the manufacturers but I am sure Miami and Recassens will look after me. :)
Chris
At that time, I was buying from Lowell Distributing (SailRite). I worked with Glen Raven directly, providing all the info they asked for (photos, customer invoice) and they replaced the 30 yds of Cadet Grey immediately for me to remake the cover. Then they supplied me with free Sunbrella, directly from the factory, as I requested it, with the value coming off my warranty claim credit at the wholesale price. They also covered shipping to me from NC. I never ordered small cuts from them - just got them from Manart as I needed, but large cuts like 15 yds or more, I ordered from NC. For the popular colors like black and captain navy, I just ordered full rolls to keep in stock.
June