Hello all,
Had a customer call me about sewing 2 cushions for her. The dimensions are 25x21x4 and 21x21x4. They have welt on both sides and are both zippered. She is supplying the material (big surprise now days), and we have to supply the welt cord and zipper. How much time would you take to cut and sew these cushions (I was figuring around 50 minutes a cushion), and what would you charge the customer? She ended up calling around and another upholstery shop in the area told her $45 each. Is it just me, or with cutting fees, material (zipper and welt cord) and labor time does this seem like a discount rate. I will admit I don't do much residential stuff, but this seems kind of inexpensive. I am curious to hear your opinions. Thanks.
I think you have the time close for a box cush with no T and no stripe. Including the time you already spent and more time you'll be spending interfacing with the customer.
As for price that can very greatly from region to region. Also a shop that's been around for 30 years and has a good reputation can charge more then a start-up that's struggling to find work.
You know what your shop fees are and should stick to it. Sometimes the customer will play the price game even though they already know which shop their going to use. Let them use the other shop and if the job comes out good then good for her. But if it doesn't you'll be hearing from her again.
Me I'd figure a hour per cusion at $75 an hour at least
What do you charge? ..........I have learned that $ can be one of those taboo subjects on this site but lets talk about it anyway.
When I had an active shop and I would answer the phone, the first thing I would ask is "Are you letting your fingers do the walking....are you calling around the area shops asking for prices?", If they answer "Yes", I would say "Great, I shop the very same way", "Let me ask you a few questions first......is price or quality more important to you?" "How quickly do you need to have the project completed?" As I am listening to the answers, I am formulating a "battle plan". In this plan, I am considering things like: is this cushion going to keep me from a real money maker, can I work it into the flow of my shop, can I make money from future work from this customer.
I would give them a price that I knew would make me money and then I would listen....if they say "Well Acme Upholstery can do it for $15 less" I would always say that "If Acme can do the job in the same time table I can and if their quality is is good as mine....then you need to take it to Acme but if you bring it to my shop you will have the benefit of having over 60 years of experience cutting and sewing your cushions"
I know that everyone has their own phone personalities but I hope there were a few nuggets in what I used for 30 years. Steve
Thanks for the responses so far. I was curious what others would charge without giving out to much information on the other upholstery shop. The other shop has been in business roughly 60 years. I am familiar with their work and it is quality. I priced the job out at $160 for both. Between the shop rate ($60/hour), cutting fee on the customer supplied material ($15/yard), a modest amount on my supplies, and the fact that she needs it done in under a weeks time, that this was fair. I was told that the other shop included a cutting fee in the $90 for both price.
Now I will admit I don't do a lot of residential upholstering, most of my work is medical and dental offices, but $45 each seems a bit on the cheap side. I was curious if anyone else would do these cushions with customer supplied material a that kind of price. That is short of someone needing work to keep their sewer busy.
We charge $50 for small cushions. $75 for large. Be they square, T, COM, instock fabric, or whatever. The motto being- what you loose on the apples you make up for on the oranges. Money making plane-jane square one's make up for the money loosing plaid doughnut one's. Bear in mind we don't get requested to do a lot of 'only make the skin' jobs. More often than not we'll stuff it too. And so what we 'lost' on the sewing we make up for on the foam and zippers and fabric (more often than not).
Seems the people who do bring their own fabric in to get only the skin never knew about us before, and we end up getting more work from them. So it makes good business not to sting them
too hard.
The first time ;)
I don't think it would be stinging.
Guy brought me a flop flop seat back rest and a backrest off the front of a center console
About 2 yards one smooth and one quilted I supplied the material $180 i
my times with money too
.
We tend to focus solely on what another shop would charge, while our main competitor is the manufacturers. My point is, we ordered two complete five inch thick cushions. new covers, new foam with wrap for $120.00. The materials would or could cost a small shop that much.
Manufacturers actually establish mind set of the customers with respect to pricing. It seems that much of what we do is compared to new replacement.
Furniture retailers will run a special on a sofa at $395, for example, and a customer will call to see if they can get their old one recovered for less. We and what we do continue to be compared to new replacement. Those in business a while, have had this experience.
The main thing consumers understand is price and it is evident in market analysis. If it is new, they expect it to be quality and perfect, because of that.
With respect to running a custom small operation, it is a fact that we are not as efficient as mass production, we cannot buy as cheaply as they can, which leads to the understanding that we cannot compete with them.
Therefore, when the consumer comes to us wanting something like cushions made, sure they are looking for the cheapest price because regardless of which shop they called it exceeds the expection due to their mind set, referenced above. This is just an example to support the discussion of why we can't get more for our work.
At $45 per cushion cover and my overhead, it is not going to keep me in middle class. It takes me longer to do the work on a custom basis, whatever I buy is more than manufacturers pay and when the labor cost is factored in (usually foreign), I cannot compete with new. It is that simple.
These are the challenges of a small business, what we do and whether we make it or not depend on several factors, too many to discuss in a thread like this. Better done in the business section.
Bottom line, if you are doing something that pays better than sewing cushions, good management will do that but if the workbench is essentially empty, then $45 a cushion cover may at least keep the sign hanging on the door. So, we can take the jobs that pay less and work longer hours and compare it to our other opportunities are, if they exist.
I wish everyone the best, no one said it would be easy, did they?
Doyle
Well I would have to say $45 per cushion would not pay my overhead long term. I will work on the assumption that this price was given so that the sewer has something to do. There are a lot of upholsterers around here who have residential upholstering as their primary focus, and word is, business has been moderate to slow. If not, and this is the normal amount received for sewing a cushion, I will stay away from the residential, and keep doing what I specialize in. Thanks for all the input.
For a standard sized couch, or chair cushion, which falls into the dimensions you mentioned, I charge 75.00 each, for cushions larger than standard, I charge 3.00 pr. running inch, these are labor charges only and zippers and welting are additional charges. Shop charges pr hour vary depending on where the shop is located and the over head cost to stay in business and turn a profit. My overhead and shop rate is lower than many other posters on this board because my business is home based and that price per. cushion sounds low to me.
I stopped competing on price long ago, I figured out what my overhead cost were and how much I need to turn a profit and price on that information. If I cant get my hourly rate than what I do is just an expensive hobby and I can think of many other "hobbies" I would rather spend my time pursuing. We had a prospective customer call just the other day and ask what we would charge to reupholster dining seats. I have a standard charge list, so the person who took the call just had to look at the list and find "plywood dining seats 70.00 each for labor". The prospect responded with "do you realize all you have to due is staple fabric onto plywood?" I guess it's a good thing I didn't take the call. :D
I just did a seat and cushion back for a center console, the one that go in front of the console for 90.00 each.
What i have found is that it takes a fair amount of time even to do the "staple on" cushions. If they are more intricate and require more sewing i charge more. I can say, i wont charge less than 75.00 a cushion ever. Its not worth my time because after i pay shipping and taxes there is hardly any profit left.
The end all be all is we are in business to make money and not give our services away. We are good at what we do and should get paid accordingly.
/my 2 cents
Quote from: mike802 on June 14, 2011, 06:42:45 am
The prospect responded with "do you realize all you have to due is staple fabric onto plywood?" I guess it's a good thing I didn't take the call. :D
My response would have been, "If it's that easy then why are you calling me?"
I have some customers that can't understand why prices are they way they are
and some that are absolutely amazed how I can take straight pieces of tubing,
bend a frame then take flat material and turn it into a top.
I've hesitated commenting on this thread but for these cushions I would charge
around $200 each. Of course that's because we're primarily a canvas shop and
our labor rate in the DC area is higher due to higher overhead and the cost of
living here.
Something to consider is your labor rate is based in part on a profit margin on
materials. I hesitate using customer supplied fabric and if we do it voids any
warranty at all on the service. You don't take your steak to the restaurant or
your parts to the car mechanic do you?
Another thing to consider is whether you're pushing a job in progress to the
side to complete this small job in the customer's time frame. Will that have an
impact on future work from that other customer?
One thing that never fails. You get a customer that wants to nickel and dime
the cost of the job and needs it quick. So you do it for their price and push to
get it done. No matter how nice you think the job is they will have some complaint
and completely forget you went out of your way to make them happy. In the end
you kick yourself because you know you should have held your ground.
If the customer gave you the quote whose to say they were honest ? I have seen that game played before in other industries where the customer says " I got quoted XXX number of dollars " when it fact is was more. They were simply trying to low ball the company they wanted to have do the work.
If the customers quote was factual then it very well could be that they are slow and are trying to get something in the door to keep employees busy.
To be honest, I could careless what others quote. I give them my best shot and if they take it fine if not then let another stitcher deal with it. If it is a big job and I have alot of margin to play with then I may step up to bat.
Chris
Dearest upholstery friends:
thanking you for the quality and content of this particular thread which is really especially helpful, indeed rather so, for one lucky newbie starting out.
I reckon it's pretty crap to undersell yourself and the bs factor isn't worth it. But sometimes the coyote is at the door huh? When you became a tradie nobody really teaches you how to deal with the cockroaches.
Current competitor's prices as listed below -
[Fabric from samples shown to client usually marked up, marked up at about 80% - 100%.
Customer can supply fabric if required.
Pickup and delivery charge on the sofa or the seat/s to do job $150-, but charged more if miles away.]
seat cushions 55cm x 55cm $45- per cushion and add $5- for every 50 cm added
scatter cushions 1.2 mts makes three 45cm x 45cm cushion = $20- per cushion
and 50cm x 50cm cushion = $25- per cushion
dining chairs only one seat cushion, fabric costs and $35- per cushion
dining chair full cover to the floor , 1.4 mts per chair + $85- per chair for 4 chairs, $80- for 6 chairs, $75- for 8 chairs
arm chairs with seat and back cushions, and 6.5mts fabric cost, $300-
arm chair with only seat cushions, and 6 mts cost, $250-
arm chair without cushions, 5.5 mts, $200-
wingback chair, 6 mts, $250-
rocker / recliner, 6.5 mts, $300-
2 seater lounge / sofa with back and seat cushions, 11.5 mts, $350-
" " only seat cushions, 10 mts, $300-
" " without cushions, 8.5 mts, $250-
3 seater sofa with back and seat cushions, 13 mts, $450-
" " with only seat cushions, 11.5 mts, $400-
" " without cushions, 10 mts, $350-
* note that my sailmaker mate from Fremantle (that's where we lost the auld mug back to ya) says the above prices are cheap.
Finally, thanking you, good buddies, for your constancy and virtue and in sharing your wisdom and prudence.
Like they used to say in Rome of old, "let not the cobbler venture above his last".
Yours ever, best regards, cheerio, catch ya later, take it easy, tra la la
:-X
Mike 802. Me tionded overhead.
Even if you work from home and your overhead is low so what
I've got a friend who ended up a teamsters truckdriver he gets a good check ( isn't the boss soh has no headache) and when he retires soon will get a goood pension not to mention the heth INS he's had
My point is he and how many of our customers make good money and have no o erhead except a car to go to work and gas So why should one who works from home have the same ?
I'm not going to get a union pension here myself but if one saves some money working from home should still make the same proffit
I'm done ;)
Excellent points. I've been reading "The Art of Pricing" as recommended by a few members here on another thread in another sub section.
If you think my prices are now going to go up from one to now two dollars for an item after reading the book, your not paying attention, and obviously have not read to book!
A lot of what I'm focusing on and trying to improve on is trying to convey to the customer the quality services that we provide. Or, better yet, the VALUE of what we do. Some people will match our price, but few will match our quality, espeically in certain areas. But, NOBODY will know this unless I'm prepared to educate them, or present my case. For this, I have to be ready. A lot can go into being aware of what you yourself do, and what your competitors are doing, but this need not be the case every time. In many cases, your customer will tell you.
Quote from: sterry56 on June 13, 2011, 03:53:10 pm
What do you charge? ..........I have learned that $ can be one of those taboo subjects on this site but lets talk about it anyway.
When I had an active shop and I would answer the phone, the first thing I would ask is "Are you letting your fingers do the walking....are you calling around the area shops asking for prices?", If they answer "Yes", I would say "Great, I shop the very same way", "Let me ask you a few questions first......is price or quality more important to you?" "How quickly do you need to have the project completed?" As I am listening to the answers, I am formulating a "battle plan". In this plan, I am considering things like: is this cushion going to keep me from a real money maker, can I work it into the flow of my shop, can I make money from future work from this customer.
I would give them a price that I knew would make me money and then I would listen....if they say "Well Acme Upholstery can do it for $15 less" I would always say that "If Acme can do the job in the same time table I can and if their quality is is good as mine....then you need to take it to Acme but if you bring it to my shop you will have the benefit of having over 60 years of experience cutting and sewing your cushions"
I know that everyone has their own phone personalities but I hope there were a few nuggets in what I used for 30 years. Steve
Quote from: Mike8560 on June 14, 2011, 11:20:20 am
Even if you work from home and your overhead is low so what
Amen!! It should give you a profit advantage, and not give a price advantage to a potential customer.
Gregg, I have been reading the book too. It's good!
Quote from: Saddleman on June 14, 2011, 03:03:48 pm
Quote from: Mike8560 on June 14, 2011, 11:20:20 am
Even if you work from home and your overhead is low so what
Amen!! It should give you a profit advantage, and not give a price advantage to a potential customer.
Gregg, I have been reading the book too. It's good!
Commercial location vrs. work from home. There's a "trade-off".
I have a commercial location that sells itself. I don't have to hustle for work. It just comes into me right off the street. So no advertising expense. But the trade-off is the added expense of a commercial property.
But the customer is naturally going to have the perception that a "work from home" upholsterer should be cheaper. And they think you're open 24 hours.
Labor in the $150-175 range, matching of fiddly materials being more to the high end.
Materials would be about $9 (I always make money on notions and supplies!).
Sales tax.
When faced with an incredulous customer I simply say that I have 30+ yrs. of experience and stand behind my work. I also "work from home", but over the years I've spent a lot of money on accumulating nice equipment and my set up is clean, neat, professional, and I charge accordingly.
"Cast not thine pearls before swine", my friends!
I had a guy call tonight asking about chair repair. I told him my price. He said they were only $39 chairs to begin with. I'm thinking I should have countered with a higher price as the cheap chairs are always lacking in workmanship and materials and take more time.
I think he really believed I would lower my price if he kept talking long enough and told me the price he paid for them.
Next, please!
Quote from: byhammerandhand on June 14, 2011, 06:41:50 pm
I told him my price. He said they were only $39 chairs to begin with.
I get those a lot.
My response is "Then you'll probably be better off just replacing it".
I even tell them "Hey, if it were MINE, I wouldn't even fix it for myself"
Do people really think you're gonna' fix something for a fraction of $39?
Quote from: sofadoc on June 14, 2011, 08:43:25 pm
Quote from: byhammerandhand on June 14, 2011, 06:41:50 pm
I told him my price. He said they were only $39 chairs to begin with.
I get those a lot.
My response is "Then you'll probably be better off just replacing it".
I even tell them "Hey, if it were MINE, I wouldn't even fix it for myself"
Do people really think you're gonna' fix something for a fraction of $39?
I doubt they would work so cheap at what they do.
Same with boat I'd tell them to buy a new seat from a catalouge them match the unbuyable lieces to them for a less expensive solution
Quote from: byhammerandhand on June 14, 2011, 06:41:50 pm
I had a guy call tonight asking about chair repair. I told him my price. He said they were only $39 chairs to begin with.
Next, please!
I love it when you go through all this and they ask, can you just come out and look at it. Like when I see it the price will go down, Like I don't have anything better to do.
Next please, indeed.
Mike 8560: I totally agree, because someone chooses to run their business with as little overhead as possible does not mean they have to settle for a smaller paycheck. I was just trying to make the point that overhead is a variable that changes from location to location and even though my business in run from my home, with little overhead the cushion cost still sounded low.
I haven't been sewing much lately - too many boats in the yard getting refit and I have to keep up with the paperwork - so I've been telling my regulars that I'm taking a break from sewing till all the boats get shipped. Got a call yesterday from one of my long-time regulars begging me to "come out retirement" and make a set of coaming bolsters for him. He got a couple quotes of over $700 for 3 pieces - 2 at 6' x 10" x 2" and 1 at 18" x 10" x 2" with marine vinyl on front, mesh on the back, and soft cushions - they hang from a welt strip on the top. For your furniture guys, basically a boxed cushion with those dimensions. One guy wanted $750 :o and apparently some other work he had in the shop was, according to my regular, sub-par with baggy vinyl. Yikes! I want to make a profit too, but that's ridiculous!
June
Wow June: Wish I could get away with that.
I was thinking about my last post and all the hidden cost of working from home, some not necessarily monetary. I no longer have personal use of my barn, garage, or studio, what ever you like to call it. I could rent it out, or the business should be paying rent on it. I still have business insurance, I need a phone, I still have to pay the business's share of the lights, garbage, snow removal, building maintenance, tools machinery, etc. A home based business still has all the same cost of an off home based business, although maybe those cost are not charged at a commercial rate. The only difference is the cost the home owner is willing to cover.
Signage is very important and now your home has sign's in front of it, not to mention having customers wandering around your property 24/7, because after all you do live there. You have to listen to the phone ring after hours and put up with family members and customers who for the life of them cant understand why you do not just answer it, after all you do live there. And yes I have a private line for family, but some refuse to use it. The cost of a hide-a-way could also be factored in, so you have some place to get away from it all, for us it's a spot at the lake, or the garden at my mothers house, you would be surprised how important it is to have a place you can go to be able to "leave work" for your mental health. Maybe in the long run it's actually cheaper to have your business at a separate location, if you own the building you might even gain on increasing property value, and I would think it would be easier to sell the business and retire if it is not home based.
My 5 year goal is to get the business out of my home, but with the economy the way it is that might have to be extended to a 10 year goal. >:(
Great discusion here about price... So many factors to consider... Some things just take time... measuring and cutting and sewing take time. The customer is buying your time...So what are you worth?? I have asked myself that question over and over, what is my time worth. I know some jobs are harder than others and will take me longer than say Mike or a factory. So again, what am I worth...?? I know my final product is good quality though or I won't deliver it... So on a job like this I would might allow 2 hours for each cushion and charge $35 an hour. So $70 a cushion. Now if I can beat 2 hours, good for me...but I'm not getting burned.
I have a dedicated space for my business, having outgrown the first floor room in our home that once contained it. Space requirements for tailoring/alterations are very different than those for drapery/slipcovers/soft home furnishings. My new space has its own electric meter and oil tank, as well. But this space was a long time coming, too.
I have always worked by appointment only and have only had to deal with a handful of "drop ins" over the years. I greeted them pleasantly, asking, "I hope I've not overlooked an appointment!". "Well, no, I knew you'd be home so I figured I'd just drop by." "Wait right here, I'll get my appointment book and we'll schedule something convenient for both of us.". I left them standing on the doorstep while I got my book. And we made the appointment on the doorstep. There was no doubt that "dropping by" was not the way things work around here.
As I work more from home I will set more regular hours but see that maintaining a firm line between "work" and "being home" will be crucial. I plan to work 4-5 days/wk., including Saturday and Sunday, as I see a "hole" in my area with respect to competent marine canvas repair on the weekends.
Quote from: Highvelocity on June 15, 2011, 01:36:07 pm
Great discusion here about price... So many factors to consider... Some things just take time... measuring and cutting and sewing take time. The customer is buying your time...So what are you worth?? I have asked myself that question over and over, what is my time worth. I know some jobs are harder than others and will take me longer than say Mike or a factory. So again, what am I worth...?? I know my final product is good quality though or I won't deliver it... So on a job like this I would might allow 2 hours for each cushion and charge $35 an hour. So $70 a cushion. Now if I can beat 2 hours, good for me...but I'm not getting burned.
I find this to be very good practice. I just recently priced a job using this method. Its a relatively easy way to price jobs. I took the number of cushions(marine) and multiplied them by the number of hours i thought each cushion would take. Then multiply by shop rate.
QuoteI find this to be very good practice. I just recently priced a job using this method. Its a relatively easy way to price jobs. I took the number of cushions(marine) and multiplied them by the number of hours i thought each cushion would take. Then multiply by shop rate.
I think this is absolutely the best way to estimate, but I have taken it one step further. Over the years I have kept a log on how many hours different jobs have taken. I started out using one of those yardage charts that fabric suppliers hand out. After a while, I had done enough of each type of furniture pictured to get a good average for the amount of hours it took me to complete each one. I then numbered each picture and on a separate sheet of paper I listed the dollar amount for labor based on my average hours worked for each piece. This was an ongoing project and took several years, but now anyone in the shop can not only give on accurate estimate, but the estimates are consistent from customer to customer. Before I did this it bothered me that my estimates were not consistent between customers and in a small community people talk and noses get bent out of joint. The list is not perfect and still is a work in progress because even after 27 years, I still get pieces that I have never done before.
Quote from: mike802 on June 15, 2011, 07:41:46 am
My 5 year goal is to get the business out of my home, but with the economy the way it is that might have to be extended to a 10 year goal. >:(
you must be a youg man my 10 year goal is to semi retire and just to what I feel like and make some boat gas I'm working at slowing down and taking it easy latly
I wish there was some easy method with boats, but unfortunately there isn't. For some cushions - forward of console, for instance, you probably can. But most are a mystery till you've done at least one of that make/model/year. I bet you car guys run into this all the time as well. Until you get "under the covers", you don't have a clue what to bid.
Did a Formula 280SS recently - the helm seat alone, a single seat, took me 2 solid days to take apart and pattern. A full week was spent on a single seat. There were probably 40 pattern pieces. It took 8 yards of vinyl. Looking at it, you'd say - ah.... 4 yards tops, 2 days. NOT!!!. I have a pic around somewhere. I'll post it. Ya just never know. Sure wish customers would agree to time and materials contracts...
June
I'd lime to see that seat June it wasn't tours was it ?
You need to startet sewing more I e noticed you've need off a bit
Sounds like tour getting worked behind the deck again ;)
I use the "notebook method" which is similar to Mike 802's. I use a smallish spiral bound notebook and in it I make notes on the jobs I do. I list the customer's name and phone number, the date of the app't. and directions for the project to be done. I make my own notes as I do the work, noting the start time and the finish time. I have been using this method for many years now and have several of those notebooks in my shop's book case. I put the date I start the notebook on the front cover and when I've used all the pages I put the finish date on the front, too. Several of those notebooks include specs. for jobs I've done "at work".
It's not too difficult to go back and find good information on projects; and it's also fun to take a stroll down "Memory Lane" every so often. It's really amazing to see the variety of work I've done over the years. I would like to begin doing the same thing using the computer, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
I find my own personal notes on work to be an invaluable resource. Even my co-workers have adopted the technique. I have saved myself some major hassles by simply taking the time to go back and look up a job because I also note what worked well and what proved to be a time waster.
Quote
My 5 year goal is to get the business out of my home, but with the economy the way it is that might have to be extended to a 10 year goal. Angry
you must be a youg man my 10 year goal is to semi retire and just to what I feel like and make some boat gas I'm working at slowing down and taking it easy latly
LOL not quit as young as I used to be Mike. But I figure I still have a good 20 years left in me.