I delivered some chairs today. When I arrived at the customer's house, her decorator was there. Turns out the decorator and me used to do business together many years ago.
As we talked, neither of us could remember why we parted ways. She asked if I would be interested in doing her work again. I said "Sure".
As she began talking about some new jobs, it slowly dawned on me why we went our seperate ways.
The furniture jobs always went off without a hitch. No problems. No complaints.
The kicker was that she always wanted a dozen or so pillows with the job. All sizes. Different fabrics, different trims. She always expected at least 6 of them to come free with the job, and the rest for "next to nothing".
She would scour the bargain bins at the local fabric stores, and buy the least, least least, least possible amount of fabric (usually NOT enough).
Gradually, the furniture work grew less, and less significant, and the "low budget" throw pillow work became overwhelming. I began to suspect that she was getting someone else to do the furniture, and sending me their "culls".
I think it was kodydog who said he likes to do pillows as an extra source of revenue.
I do too.
Do you guys get a good price for throw pillows? I like doing them, as long as they're profitable.
I passed on hooking back up with that decorator.
I charge by the hour. I have a pretty good formula for getting them done, but I'm not an assembly line worker and refuse to work as though I am. Time and materials... too little fabric that requires piecing takes more time... I'll do the work, but I'm going to get paid for it.
I had a great talk today with a lady, yes, I said a lady, Mr. Mojo, who is working now as an interior designer for a store but is an accomplished upholsterer and window treatment maker.
We were talking about the 'custom work' nature of our business and she emphasized that everything has a price. If you want a tufted button that has a price. If you want to add a bow, that has a price. If you want a pillow, that has a price. There is nothing that she would do that she would not charge something for. I really appreciated her sharing this.
Pillows: I started doing pillows because designers would have me reupholster a piece of furniture, then they would come to my shop and pick up the left over fabric to take to their window treatment shop to have them make one or two pillows. I saw that I could say 'thank you' by making the pillows for them myself. I charge a decent price for my pillows. I do not give them away at all. I have gotten very fast without any less quality, so I am comfortable with my pillow prices. I also have gotten very good at bolster pillows, but only because I do a lot of them also.
Self welt knife edge pillows have one price. Contrast welt cord is the same. Decorative or fringe welt I add to that. Odd shaped or round I add to that again.
Bolster pillows are another price.
Boxed cushions are yet another price. I don't see any difference between making a boxed cushion cover and a self welt knife pillow cover in terms of getting paid for my work.
I do all hidden zippers unless asked to hand sew them shut. I do not want to do velcro, ever, but I will if you promise not to tell anyone that I made them.
gene
Quote from: sofadoc on May 12, 2011, 03:20:21 pm
I began to suspect that she was getting someone else to do the furniture, and sending me their "culls".
We do work for a designer who does the same deal. Gives us the jobs her other upholster wont do. We just charge her a little more and she never complains.
Many moons ago I delivered a sofa to an elder wealthy customer, huge house in a resort, on the bay, across from the yacht club. After i set it up and handed her the bill she asked were the toss pillows and arm covers were. I said we hadn't discussed that. She said those are supposed to be included in the price. Knowing she had more work I went ahead and did them. That was the only time I've come across this situation.
QuoteSelf welt knife edge pillows have one price
Self welt knife edge? Ever do those on triangular cushions?
Are you doing your self welt with a folder or manually folding the face plate to form a cord?
Doyle
Quote from: DB on May 13, 2011, 06:15:45 am
QuoteSelf welt knife edge pillows have one price
Self welt knife edge? Ever do those on triangular cushions?
Are you doing your self welt with a folder or manually folding the face plate to form a cord?
I think Gene is just talking about using the same fabric instead of a different trim. I don't think he's referring to actual self-welt. Right Gene?
Quote from: kodydog on May 12, 2011, 08:12:42 pm
Quote from: sofadoc on May 12, 2011, 03:20:21 pm
I began to suspect that she was getting someone else to do the furniture, and sending me their "culls".
We do work for a designer who dose the same deal. Gives us the jobs her other upholster wont do. We just charge her a little more and she never complains.
Many moons ago I delivered a sofa to an elder wealthy customer, huge house in a resort, on the bay, across from the yacht club. After i set it up and handed her the bill she asked were the toss pillows and arm covers were. I said we hadn't discussed that. She said those are supposed to be included in the price. Knowing she had more work I went ahead and did them. That was the only time I've come across this situation.
So out of curiosity, did you get anymore work from her?
Doyle and Sofadoc,
Yes, Self welt cord = making the welt cord using the same fabric as the pillow cover. The self welt cord is sewn onto the pillow fabric.
I will sometimes manually fold the face plate (I call it a panel), when I am making a boxed cushion and I want the front to match up perfectly, such as with pin stripes. I have never done this with a knife edge pillow cover.
I do not have a folder, but I know that factories that do volume use them.
Sofadoc: Go to Walmart, buy a grill, a fishing rod, a hat, a pair of shorts, then tell the teller that because you are paying for these other things you are going to take 6 pairs of socks for free. Do you think that teller will remember you a few years from now? LOL
The best definition of chutzpah that I have ever heard: A man kills his parents, and then at his trial he asks the judge for leniency because he is an orphan.
gene
♫ It's been said many times , many ways---♫ Stick to your guns! Why would I work for a loss so that you will bring more work to loose money on? I can't believe that people are even that stupid as to try to use that argument to panhandle.
QuoteI passed on hooking back up with that decorator.
The above said; don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Where she has forgotten that this had been an issue in the past ;you're starting with a fresh set of downs. Take on her work ,but be very clear and upfront that everything has a price and that you aren't going to give her any freebies to buy her loyalty.
Quote from: Darren Henry on May 13, 2011, 04:13:21 pm
Where she has forgotten that this had been an issue in the past ;you're starting with a fresh set of downs.
She may have forgotten, but I don't think the leopard has changed her spots. She was already talking about umpteen different throw pillows. I'm guessing that she's wore out her welcome with the other nearby shops.
Quote from: scottymc on May 13, 2011, 03:20:14 pm
So out of curiosity, did you get anymore work from her?
Yes and you can bet, by God, I charged her for the freebees. Got some work from her daughter too.
I am struck by the number of us who have been in the uncomfortable position of having a designer with whom we'd like to establish a business relationship attempt to wheedle "free" work for us as a "guarantee" that more of the paying work with be forthcoming!
It leads me to this question: do you think that's done intentionally, or do you think they simply don't really understand that for a tradesman "time is money" and that the time required to crank out a toss pillow is not inconsequential when viewed in the greater context of our work day? Ditto the price of the notions (welting/thread/zipper chain and pull).
Quote from: bobbin on May 14, 2011, 03:49:52 am
I am struck by the number of us who have been in the uncomfortable position of having a designer with whom we'd like to establish a business relationship attempt to wheedle "free" work for us as a "guarantee" that more of the paying work with be forthcoming!
It leads me to this question: do you think that's done intentionally, or do you think they simply don't really understand that for a tradesman "time is money" and that the time required to crank out a toss pillow is not inconsequential when viewed in the greater context of our work day? Ditto the price of the notions (welting/thread/zipper chain and pull).
I like working for designers. They handle a lot of the headaches I would otherwise have to. Their clients are usually upscale and personable.
The one thing that rubs me the wrong way more than anything is sometimes you get inside a piece and find more work than you anticipated. No mater how much you inspect it before you pick it up sometimes you find frame work, springs, padding etc., that needs extra attention.
Some designers want it done right no matter the cost. But others will tell me their estimate has already been submitted and it can not be changed. That puts me in a hard spot. Should I not do the repair and cover over it , or (what I usually do) should I fix it and eat it. Maybe make it up in future jobs.
What do you say?
Most likely any of the above Bobbin.
The short comment is; whatever the cost of the decorator/designer and upholsterer, plus any other that may be involved, ultimately falls on the consumer. Consumers want things but they are still sensitive to price, decorators percieve this and to consumate a sale, will put a bit of spice on the agreement, pillows, etc. at the expense of the subs involved in the transaction.
The upholsterer or any of the subs are entitled to be paid for their work but ultimately all cost becomes consumer cost. There are limits to anything, decorators know this therefore, the squeeze is passed down.
Selling like this, by a decorator, and someone else doing the work, is less efficient than a consumer visiting a retail outlet for a new item and picking something out.
My comments are assuming the decorator goes to the home with samples and spends considerable time making a transaction, if successful. Time is money and we all know the rest.
If this isn't the routine sales procedure, then I am partly off base. In my business, in the long past, we spent considerable time showing samples in a home and didn't get all takers. That practice was something we could not sustain. Customers of new furniture have to go to a store to buy, so why can't reupholstery customers do the same? Time is money.
There are exceptions to everything, a designer/decorator is essential in some markets, those that have deeper pockets as their following. There are a lot fewer of these type of decorators than those with a lot less affluent market. The decorator with the affluent following should be the target for those upholsterers doing this type of support. That one will be easy to reach agreement on, I am sure.
My thoughts, it will be interesting to read other comments.
Doyle
Quotedo you think that's done intentionally, or do you think they simply don't really understand that for a tradesman "time is money" and that the time required to crank out a toss pillow is not inconsequential
My personal experience has been ignorance. They just don't have a hot clue what is involved in our trade. In their world a toss cushion only takes 5 minutes and wouldn't tassels look pretty on that?
The last place I worked ; the "designer" was the upholsterer's wife, and we installed window dressings. He had been 20 years trying to explain things to her, I spent 5 asking obvious questions to get her to think and their daughter spent 2 or 3 summers yelling at her but little things like "it's on a concrete wall 17 feet above the swimming pool" didn't matter. A mauve swag over that rake head window would be just ducky and we'd show up with a 5 foot ladder,15 minutes to do the job and no life jackets.
Just like in our government nothing is free, everything should stand on its own. If you want a sofa done it's one price, if you want a sofa and 6 pillows it's a corresponding higher price.
A friend that was an estimator at a local lumber yard once was giving a customer a price on materials for a house The customer when asking for the quote stated that he was planning to build 10 houses, so keep that in mind while pricing it out. When given the price the customer was upset that he didn't feel he had been given a 10-house discount, my friend told him that if he bought 9 houses the 10th was free. He left and bought materials from another supplier, never paid for them and never finished the 1st house before the bank took it back! Just what would he have benefited by giving the customer a big discount based on what he claimed, dreamed, or boasted he was going to do?
There has been talk over on the business side about maximizing profits. All good advice. But all too often people, such as decorators will attempt to maximize their profit by squeezing every last dollar out of their customer, while at the same time twisting the knife a little deeper on the suppliers, and vendors.
I don't know how many times a decorator, or antique dealer has said to me "If you could do it for less, I could send you a LOT of business".
Yeah, a lot of UNPROFITABLE business! If I wanted to work for minimum wage, I'd probably have to install one of those "Take a number" dispensers at my front door.
I certainly get what Darren is saying, too. Many decorators know how to coordinate colors. They know what is stylish, and pretty. But they don't always know what is practical. And they really don't want that to be their problem (It's YOUR problem).
I think it was Tapissier (Bruno) who resented the fact that, In France, he had to go through years of apprenticeship, and training in order to be certified as an upholsterer, while in America, the ONLY qualification to open an upholstery shop, is be able to pay rent. I kinda feel the same way about decorators sometimes. There are a lot of them with no formal degree in decorating.
There is a big difference between "designers" and decorators! Designers are required to take classes, know specific requirements in things like bathrooms, kitchens, staircases, hallways, etc.. I've seen the course work and the exam was no fat lady's dream, either. It's along the line of what's required of an architect, very specific. A "decorator" can be anyone with a "good eye", no knowledge of architecture or safety regulations with respect to space is required. I know some fabulous designers and some crummy ones. And I know some decorators who have forgotten more about "design" than many "qualified" designers know. So, there is a certified difference, but that doesn't make one easier to work for if you're a "sub." on a job!
I am presently trying to establish professional, working relationships with local designers. It's pretty slow going, mostly because a lot of people in our trade work out of the "spare bedroom" and their low hourly rates make them stiff competition for a start up like me. But I'm properly equipped, have a dedicated work space, and a ton of experience, too. But it takes time to build a body of work and a reputation for quality results, esp. in a tough economy. I am finding that I'm doing a lot of work that is basically a "bail out", saving the designer's ass because the cheaper place did a crummy job. And I charge full boat for it, making it clear that the price includes the "PITA surcharge"; cleaning up other people's messes/mistakes carries a high cost. "Repeat" business is picking up and there hasn't been a lot of grousing about pricing. Who knows how long that will last?
I have taken pains to explain that estimates are just ... basically well educated guesses, based on years of work and experience, and a knowledge of what the basic materials cost to render the work as discussed. I sympathize with you, Kody., because none of us have X-ray eyes and we simply cannot see inside an old piece to accurately determine precisely how many hours it will require. I have taken to giving a "worst case scenario" and a "best case" estimate; this is particularly important in marine work where rotten wood and seized or corroded bolts are commonplace. I always tell a customer that the wild card is what I cannot see and they must be prepared for that. Take it or leave it. But it's really, really hard to convey that to people in a way that assures them that you aren't just leaving the door open to "take advantage". I struggle with it, frankly. But have come to the determination that I'd rather not work for "cheap" just to get the job. I can take an hour's worth of "hit", but more than that? I'd rather work in my gardens, play with the dog, or do some project for my own home that has been put off for months/years.
"This is wonderful, Mr./Ms. Customer!!! If I take this money losing job from you today, you will promise me even MORE money losing jobs in the future? Awesome! Let's shake on it!!!"
Designers who want freebies want it from everyone.
-Since the carpet guy is laying the carpet in one room, he and his tools are already there, so just go ahead and re-stretch the carpet in that other room.
Since the painter is already painting that room, I'm sure you have white trim paint, so just go ahead and touch up all the trim in that room also.
I love it when the designer looks shocked, aghast, nay, be-stricken, when the worker wants to be paid for their work. "WELL, all the other carpet layers, painters, window treatment folks, upholsterers, proctologists, and home builders don't mind doing me a favor now and then. After all, I am giving you the job."
I have only refused to work with one person, and this was a big part of why I felt I needed to burn a bridge.
Kodydog, this is what my ESTIMATE says: I got this language from Stephen Winters' Estimate. I do think it is my job to educate my customers on this.
"All prices quoted are for labor only, unless otherwise stated. We will discuss with you first any additional charges due to unforeseen damage/repairs/supplies that may be necessary with furniture upholstery. All work is to be delivered or picked up at the time of completion, unless other terms have been mutually agreed upon."
Check out Stephen's web site. He has spent a lot of time on this forum sharing a lot of his knowledge with us. I first learned about Quickbooks from reading his site.
http://www.winterssewing.com/
gene
Quote from: bobbin on May 14, 2011, 02:39:50 pm
There is a big difference between "designers" and decorators! Designers are required to take classes, know specific requirements in things like bathrooms, kitchens, staircases, hallways, etc..
I guess that's the difference. I'll bet that only a few of the decorators I deal with could produce any document certifying that they've had any formal training. But I know several that throw that word "Designer" around loosely.
:'( :'( :'(
No matter what business you are in there will always be ppl who want discounts based on promises of future work. In a past life and unrelated business I ran into that mentality daily. My usual response was that I was the best at what I did, however I would be prepared to entertain discounts; but only based on proven volume, at the end of a six month term or 1 year, then discounts would be carried back over a period of time based on continuing business. That could be in writing if they so chose. On the serious ones it worked great; on the chincers and lowballers it weeded them out quickly. Just my .02 cts.
Rene
Rene:
I agree ten times over with what you've said, if they are for real about the volume they will do then it shouldn't bother them to wait until they have proven it to you.
Here's another way of looking at it. When a designer try's to "squeeze" an extra dollar out of their subs aren't they shooting them self in the foot. As for me, next time I do work for them, Ill remember and add a little more to the estimate. Sure they might go some place else as in sofa docs case but like he said maybe it's best to pass on this type customer.