It would be very interesting to learn about state of the art patterning capabilities, at the manufacturing level.
This question stems from a lazy boy swivel rocker that I worked on today. This chair is so intricate and the pattern components fit with perfection. I would have been professionally challenged to pattern this chair had the original not been so perfect.
Of course, please understand the outside arm and/or back are not the components that are being referenced. But, the inside back, attached type that is filled by foam with a solid formed foam with complicated shape that is far more sophisticated than a cube of foam.
It would have taken me considerable time and many redo efforts to ever arrived at a professional pattern required for the reuphostery prcess.
In review of this, there must be software supported by higher mathematics pattern engineers use to come up with patterns so perfect for upholsterning.
I suppose I should be awed by this, after all auto design, another example, does reveal some pretty sophisticated designing graphics capability.
That given, it would be very informative to hear someone talk who has worked in this sophisticated environment as aluded. The way industries use sub contract support it would not surprise me to learn that what I am asking about is at that level, some high tech subcontract that actually does the theoretical work for a manufacturer such as LA-Z-Boy.
I carefully recaptured their pattern, sewed the components with exact registrations and seam allowances and it came out as nice as La-Z-Boy had executed. Without their pattern, like I emphasize, it would take a while and a long while before accomplishing the same fit. I don't think the job would be worth accepting.
Hence to hear from someone with experience at this technical level of patterning would be very interesting. I highly desire to learn more about the technique and equipments, etc. involved, perhaps searching the internet would give clues as a starter.
Any input on how to become informed about this subject?
Thanks for any input,
Doyle
If you're just curious to learn how it's done Doyle, (I would be too) I can see the benefit of getting some info, but as for actually using it to make a profit, maybe not. I would think that level of sophistication would benefit only a volume manufacturer, not a small shop that may see that design only once.
Rich
This business of small shops is changing fast, much of the furniture work on newer funiture can't be duplicated near as efficiently as manufacturing.
Small shops will disappear as mainstream bread and butter operations in the direction we are going. So, the encouragement is learn more and perhaps get bigger or work for something bigger. This technology has to be a relative to what is used in most manufacturing of upholstery or type of furnishings, i.e. auto, marine, etc.
Like stated above it is probably in the higher tech contractors to all these industries, would like to learn more about it. Probably filled with higher mathematics and CAD capabilities, just for starters.
Doyle.
There was an interesting story on 60 minutes last night about robotic technology.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50138922n
In summary, routine task jobs are going away.
I saw this on youtube recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tewf0qafTu8
I've also seen stacks of fabric where the pieces are cookie punched with a steel rule die. Notches are included in the cut out and the sewer lines up the notches and sews away.
I'm currently redoing the backs of some picture frame chairs where there were 3 notches at the bottom of the outside back and inside back panels. Line up the middle notch dead center and away you go. Unfortunately, the worker lined up the left or right notch and there wasn't enough fabric on one side to effectively hold the fabric onto the frame.
I've also seen auto upholstery videos where the fabric is heated to shrink onto the seats. This would certainly give a tight fit. I wonder how well it would be to use this same fabric as a pattern? It would certainly be more difficult to get reupholstered fabric back onto the seat.
gene
Thanks for passing along that link Hammer, it looks like everyone's first fear of robots (they'll take over!) wasn't really that far off in some sense. It makes me wonder, is it possible to actually doom ourselves by putting so many people out of work? I mean, sure the early adopters are making a killing right now and will continue to do so, but taken to it's absurd extreme, who would be able to buy anything w/o a job? Then again, would continued efficiencies reduce the prices of so many products and services that it would benefit more people than it hurts? Is it the government's job to limit it's growth? That would be a huge turnaround in the American idea of entrepreneurship. I do like the idea of bringing the work back to the US.
Well, at any rate, robot development seem like a good direction for the young person looking for employment opportunities. It may be one of the few areas of employment left!
Rich
I worked in factories nearly 30 years ago. Back then each manufacturer had one or two guys who's sole job was to make the patterns for new styles of furniture and to tweak the patterns for existing furniture. This was a much sought after job because there was no production presser like there was on the manufacturing floor. Unlike reupholstering, where its a one shot deal because we only have enough fabric to make one pattern. These guy's could work up a pattern and upholster a chair and if it didn't come out quite right they had the luxury of redoing it till they got it perfect.
I've Googled job searches for upholsterers. There are still a lot of manufactures looking for upholsterers including pattern makers. None of these job descriptions call for knowledge in any type software, higher mathematics, engineering, or CAD operation. This leads me to believe they still do it the same way they did 30 years ago. Trial and error working off designers sketches.
I know what your saying Doyle. I'm often astonished at the complex patterns found on recliners. And I sometimes wonder why they make them so difficult. My wife swears they do it to discourage us from reupholstering them.
Years ago I was a salesman for a paper plant. We made corrugated boxes. Over the years that plant went from 100 people to around 30 and more than tripled the production.
It got to where the paper was never touched by human hands. The rolls of paper came in one door and the boxes went out another door - everything was automated.
Today that plant is closed, as are many such plants because most of our manufacturing of other products that used boxes for shipping, went over seas.
Doyle, with Obama, Democrats, and Republicans, it is the governments' job to limit growth. Conservatives think the free enterprise system should do the limiting. There's not much power and control in being a Conservative, which is why all Democrats and most Republicans are not conservatives. This is not necessarily a criticism, just an observation.
gene
Good sense of humor Gene, the outcome of all this you talk about will be the truth. So, your are right, not the time to start an opinion debate.
We lost the election and to lose due to demographics (primarily) doesn't make a loser wrong. ;)
Like I say, time will tell. After four years, well my question is; isn't it four years too late on developing a budget within limits? That is imperative at my house and done regularly.
Doyle
Some in office can do nothing right, while others in office can do nothing wrong. Depending on who's talking anyway.
Rich
No matter the outcome of robots in your economy, but if they exist in a foreign economy, to compete will require them also.
So, if a business can't compete with those with robots, they will usually go out of business.
In our economy, why can't we compete with imports? Is the primary reason we don't have robots in that sector of manufacturing and the competition has cheaper labor or both (they have cheaper labor plus robots)?
Recently two CAT equipment seats came into the shop for reupholstery, analysis of the items verified they were high tech and put together very effectively. Then I saw a label "made in China". That discovery raised the question, why can't we compete in building these seats, it was apparent they were high tech producted with modern technology - Robots?
Interesting situation, an American company (CAT) outsourcing for seats which are well made, not the usual situation "cheap imports". Robots in any country should work for about the same cost, one tends to think, so what is the difference between the two international economies - that drives the item to be outsourced?
Money has to be a major factor, so what is the contributing factor to cost between the US and China? Government? Capitalization?
Puzzling, especially when the seat had to be imported, that in itself is an additive cost. This type of issue runs deeper than I thought.
Doyle
It's not just automation. Labor costs are a primary factor. $100 per month in China to our $2000 per month in USA for example.
Environmental costs are another factor: EPA, OSHA, Federal/State/local laws and regulations. These are non existent in most other countries.
Government employee errors cost companies 10's of millions of dollars a year just here in Ohio.
Liability issues: billions of dollars a year. 2/3 of all lawyers in the world live in the USA.
Our giant welfare system: welfare, disability, workers comp, unemployment, Obama phones, etc., etc., etc.
How many workers who get a pay check believe they only pay 1/2 of the 15% social security and medicare 'tax'?
Our cost of living is higher than China and other 3rd world countries.
I find it amazing that anything is being produced here in the USA.
gene
Some manufacturing is coming back to the States. Two reasons why is because it places production facilities and employees closer to the design engineers of the product. You will always have widgets made in other countries but I suspect more companies will revert back to the States with some of their production.
The second reason ( big reason ) is that these countries are losing their competitive advantage due to wage pressures within their own countries as well fuel prices. Workers are demanding better wages ( and getting them ). The overseas makers are finding their margins are also shrinking because shippers are demanding higher prices due to increased fuel costs while operating their ships and planes.
In regards to quality, remember when Japan was the junk producer of the world back in the 40's and 50's ? They got their act together and became known as a quality producer. I suspect the same will happen with China.
Chris
QuoteIt's not just automation. Labor costs are a primary factor. $100 per month in China to our $2000 per month in USA for example.
Environmental costs are another factor: EPA, OSHA, Federal/State/local laws and regulations. These are non existent in most other countries.
Government employee errors cost companies 10's of millions of dollars a year just here in Ohio.
Liability issues: billions of dollars a year. 2/3 of all lawyers in the world live in the USA.
Our giant welfare system: welfare, disability, workers comp, unemployment, Obama phones, etc., etc., etc.
How many workers who get a pay check believe they only pay 1/2 of the 15% social security and medicare 'tax'?
Our cost of living is higher than China and other 3rd world countries.
I find it amazing that anything is being produced here in the USA.
gene
Good list Gene, I'd add unions to that.
One other thought, with so many Americans voting in politicians who favor bigger government, (just look at the last elections) won't we be handicaping ourselves even more in the future?
Rich
Obama had those kids with him when he came out with his 23 executive orders concerning gun control.
49% of those kids, when they grow up, will be working to pay for the other 51% who will not be working, AND, AND, AND, those 49% will be working to pay off the debt that Obama and the democrates incurred during his first 2 years in office.
No one asked those kids what they thought of that?
gene
An interesting PBS show last November just before the election returns started. The premise was something like this. The largest segment of the population retiring are Caucasian baby boomers. But the biggest segment of the population getting into the taxable workforce are minorities. In particular Hispanics. The question arises how are minorities going to feel when they become the majority and see half their paycheck going to taxes to support those who created the mess. If it were me I would be enraged. But of course I'm one of the baby boomers.
I see a large political shift coming in the next 20 years.
Demographic shift? Yes, the landscape is certainly changing and one thing constant about change is; it is always changing.
Doyle
QuoteAn interesting PBS show last November just before the election returns started. The premise was something like this. The largest segment of the population retiring are Caucasian baby boomers. But the biggest segment of the population getting into the taxable workforce are minorities. In particular Hispanics. The question arises how are minorities going to feel when they become the majority and see half their paycheck going to taxes to support those who created the mess. If it were me I would be enraged. But of course I'm one of the baby boomers.
I see a large political shift coming in the next 20 years.
Take heart young caucasion business owners, maybe you'll be able to apply for minority status one day!
Rich
Well, back to patterning, anyone making analog patterns, if so what is the medium?
What products do you have patterns of? That isn't exactly high tech but they have worked for years.
What is used to cut the registration marks, on your patterns or actual mediums? I am referencing the V- Cuts we align during sewing. There is probably something faster than scissors? Analog capabilities have been around quite a while, there might be something to cut the V's.
Analogs work,
Doyle
After 20 years of upholstering I took a job as a pattern maker , your furniture experience does come in handy. How it works your given drawing or blue prints make your foam patterns and usually start with clear plastic to make your patterns . There's a lot of trial and error along with a lot of changes as the parts start to take shape. When you achieve the look and fit you want its digitized and loaded on an electric cutter for production. The hardest part is remembering most production workers are not skilled upholsters so you have to keep that in mind when your making a pattern , the sewers and upholsters have to be able to duplicate this piece . I have found this challenging and usual quite rewarding and I believe its help me in my cutting and sewing skills.
Bobslost, where did you work, in a furniture factory or for an activity making furniture patterns that a factory would use?
You could be interesting, but we need to get you talking with considerable detail.
First question to clarify, are you saying, from the drawings; a model product was made in foam and your patterning job started fitting clear plastic to it? I didn't catch on what the clear was attached to as it was marked to become a pattern piece.
To pattern means something already exist and a pattern is made from that something.
Step us through in such a way that we can understand how you took a drawing and producted a pattern, for example a pattern for a small part of the furniture.
Thanks, by the way, welcome to you as a new comer,
Doyle
I think it's ironic that the young people who voted for Obama will be the ones who will be hurt by his policies in the years to come.
Rich
I worked with designers for years building custom furnishing ,so I was some what familiar with new pieces. I took a job with Four Winns developing cockpits and cabins for boats. Working with a graphic designer who comes up with the designs and the drawing. first you help develop the substrate or the frame. From there you create the foam in the shape and style you want . after that is achieved we use patterning plastic ( just a clear plastic you can pin on pieces ) to start marking out patterns . We use 3/8 seams on every thing and you have to take extra care to walk the pieces together and but notches in as you do for the sewers . When the parts are done we digitize and load them in program to be cut and checked for errors . (we use gerber cutter ) the foam patterns are either sent to production or to a foam supplier depending on the complicity.
Like I said before one of the hardest parts is creating apart that can be reproduced in a production setting. It has been quite Interesting always something different.
Sounds interesting Bobslost, there is some technical stuff there to get your teeth in for sure.
Those foam carvers must have some special skills. Sounds like it would be quite an art.
Then, now I understand how your sewing background plays into the patten making. You have appreciation for good patterns with your background.
Thanks,
Unusual to get input from a persn with your total experience.
Doyle
http://www.lectra.com/en/industries/automotive/index.html (http://www.lectra.com/en/industries/automotive/index.html)
Bobslot your background is more pragmatic, does the link and all its superlatives add theoretical, analytical exist, or add practical understanding to pattern making at your level?
The adjectives and adverbs represented quite an effort however.
Lear seating, one of the more understood companies involved in seating in a high performance way, might be a worth while study. They are pretty big, an international company.
Doyle
Lectra technology is quite advance I have seen video before ,we use gerber software for are cutters, and our designers use pro- e . However they are limited to what can produce ,we do not have any 3d software or flatting software . Mostly what our designer do is use the software to make computer models to give you an idea of placement fit and function. We do have graphic designers that actually come up with the designs seat heights ,depth pitch firms are still all decided .by the pattern maker or the designer . And the complexity of the foam determine if we can cut in house or have a foam supplier cut it and sometimes it requires a molded piece.
The Automotive Industries use lectra tech. which is a more precise science. But they are billion dollar industry . Most of there soft goods are designed on a computer . They do employ pattern maker but they do require a college degree.
Good insights and understanding you have Bobslost, you are right about the cost of some of the systems used today. The software alone must be a fortune.
By the way, do you have a link that would give insight to some of the gerber drawing and cutting equipment. I would enjoy some understanding of any of it, most basic level and to the level that is driven by higher tech software would be interesting for me.
Yes, I can understand what you say about the more technical capabilites and how the work requires college. There is higher mathmatics and even statistical analysis involved in taking a 3-dimensional model and transforming the coordinates into a 2 dimensional system. That type of work is best done on computer software, lots of number crunching which is suitable to do on computers. Statistical analysis comes into play becauses it gives an understanding (a value) for the amount of error in the transformation process. As long as the transformation process is within an acceptable error envelope, the pattern output will support the process of cutting and sewing in 2-D. Wow! Such automation and efficiency, the work would pump out!
The statistical analysis is very valuable because it minimizes going through the drawing, cutting, and sewing to realize the output doesn't fit the model intended.
There is so much to get your teeth into, small shops like mine could save a lot of time given the capability, but (there is always a condition), One just needs the work volume to justify the expense of getting into that level of sophistication.
I would definitely get into some of what you are describing, be nice if one could do it in little steps because I have to make a living each day, can't do it all by myself and perform the research, developing, and debuging. If one had the money, for example., they could automate the process of making boat covers a lot easier than after market does it today. But, due to the cost of getting set up and time to set up is mind boggling. Higher tech, would involve 3-dimensional imaginery to support the measurement process and transform those coordinates to a pattern and have the materials cut ready for sewing in an air conditioned office.
The statistical control analysis would insure every product would fit within an acceptable error range or not.
Again, justifying all that capability would require working a staff of a large number around the clock just about all the time. Production levels this high would require a marketing staff to sell the products. To say the least, the business would not look little any longer.
Personally, I think when the market is there to support such developments, it will happen. The feasibility of going much higher tech in any of our work could be worked out easier if more higher volume products could be generated through the initial investments. Amortise the investment is all I am saying.
Big companies like you mentioned, including Lear, that produce in sufficient volumes are already on that path. You mentioned college and to my above comments, really how much is a key to that point. They have Phd's at every desk, to get into the field of mensuration, extraction, and transforming all the measurements in 3 D to 2 D is started at the best technical colleges, the degrees are not something accomplished in a general liberal arts degree. Just make note of what GPS does, the foundation for that capability is the prime support of what is used in pattern making, just to name one application. In a word with that type of background, opportunities are without boundary.
If I keep talking, might talk myself in looking them up for a job. LOL.
Doyle
Bobslost, your people should look into it deeper, as my understanding is pro E will flatten geometry. It is of course a full blown 3d design software, depending on module you pay for. So will-and-are others.
Just a comment, since this thread was initiated and due to the feedback, I seem to automatically analyze manufacturers products more and try to understand how the pattern making effort was executed. I do this in auto and furniture work primarily.
It really reminds an upholsterer of the technology mass production really does
Are models are drawn in pro-e which works well for placing cabinetry and even windshields how ever its not practical for upholstery patterns . I'm sure that there is a version that would be suitable, but unfortunately we don't have access . Also all the patterns that are created in pro -e have to be converted to a dxf program so our CNC router can read them . We also use pro- e to develop carpet patterns, counter tops and various other parts . Which also have to be converted to a dxf file for our gerber soft ware can read it. I know the technology exist but software is very expense especially if you have to buy more than 1 seat.
Key word their Bobslost - cost of software. The more technical it becomes, cost usually goes up, I suppose cost of software is similar to anything, depends on how many copies are sold. Cost almost as much to develop one copy and distribute as it does numerous cost. So, cost is understandable in that perspective.
A question along with all this interesting stuff: Not intended to break the thought flow if the thread, but it has to do with cutting multiple layers of vinyl, after a pattern is developed? More specifically, what I wonder about is how many layers of vinyl should one expect to be able to cut at a time? What cutting equipment would be suggested to cut about 10 layers at a time?
I assume the cutter would be a rotary disc cutter, either driven by hand or digitally by a Gerber cutter?
I suppose to do 10 layers, one would use something around a 6 or 8 inch diameter blade?
Or from your or anyone's exerience, is it better to cut fewer layers at a time, using the above example, 5 layers at a time and run the operation in two passes? I would think it would keep the cutter blade cooler and maybe accuracy is easier to maintain. Or if cutting fewer layers at a time, yields benefit, I suppose it best to do - maybe two or three?
Given some familiarity with the hand driven rotary cutters, I recall getting more than 5 cut at a pass was something not done. This was when working with medium weight vinyls.
There is considerable to understand isn't there?
Doyle
We use a 2100c cutter( which has a drill style blade ) and cut 8 to 10 layers of vinyl at a time . Usually with out a problem , occasionally depending on the size or complexity they may have to cut less or slow the speed down. On fabric we cut less 5 to 6 layers . In engineering we use and older model cutting edge with a wheel cutter(the blade is about 1" dia. but we only cut 1 layer at a time) The wheel cutter gives us a cleaner line for patterning purposes ,it also has a pen option so we can draw out patterns . A couple years back we had a software upgrade for it and it was over $10,000 . I was at a trade show in Texas they had a small wheel cutter for around $50,000 complete . I believe there is a you tube video on gerber cutters.
Special thanks to all contributing to this over view of the technology being used in our upholstery industry, and some of it for somewhile. Bobslost, your contributions were very interesting and provided great insights - big thanks to you.
Just during the past few days, I have noted so many artifacts that provide indications of what you and others are aluding to regarding to how patterns with markings are used in the higher efficiency manufacturing activites. Give a person with a similar background and it soon paints a much bigger and clearer picture of an activity - ie. pattern making and how to use them.
During the last traditional upholstery work projects in my business, these markings were incorporated with good understanding and effectivity. Pleasant outcomes!
The one technique, one that is easier to understand than execute, is gathering. This one gets challenging fast, it is a technique often noted in upscale leather auto interiors, not as simple as shirring some thin cloth, particular auto owners love to see their expensive leather interiors repaired back to like OEM . Computers preprogramed and interfaced with differential feed equipment has the message written all over it. There is so much a mere auto interior OEM type worker or upholsterer can wrap themselves around.
Something enjoyable and never a dull moment.
Doyle
How about this, Doyle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdHTarjtDw
gene
High tech cutter for sure, I like a method that takes the work out of it. All we need is $$
and the marketing expertise to support the technology.
Doyle
Maybe it is just me showing my age but........the technology of today simply blows my mind.
Amazing....:)
Chris
I hear ya Chris, technology has been moving on. Largely, that is why that as we know the business today, we are a dying breed.
We have talked Singer 16-188 and Singer 111W155, good old machines, but it is hard for me to believe that the 16-188 technology is in the altitude of 100 years old. I sewed on those for about 10 years, they did the job but, as I said, now if it isn't a compound walking foot of varying neck length interfaced to computers , your aren't in the race.
Yes, we are a dying breed, at least being relegated to essentially repair work. To be with it today, we have to get into high tech patterning, cutting, and sewing as well and do a heck of a lot of it to justify the capitalization. That expands the knowledge base requirement a bit, plus now the business side of business is of equal importantce because if you dont dot all the "I"s and cross the "T"s, it may not all come together.
Therefore, mind boggling is the bottom line.
Doyle
My son who owns a tech company and he has two people oin staff that do nothing but spend 40 hours a week researching existing and new trending technology and how it will impact their software and products.
As he told me once " we have a real difficult time staying on top of emerging technology ".
I myself have about given up. I learn something and then a year later its outdated and I am back to learning again. I now pick and choose what technology I take up these days.
Chris
One of my children is in college studying Bio MEngineering. She'll eventually work in the field of growing human body parts in a laboratory.
I still read about the cutting edge of technology because I find it fascinating. It's interesting also to read about the forces that try to stop it. (Such as political and religious forces.)
My cell phone makes phone calls and receives phone calls. No text, no VOC, no internet - it can take pictures but I don't have is signed up to get the software to put the pictures on my computer so I don't use it for pics.
I've gotten to an age where I often choose to keep on using old technologies because they work for me and I have no desire to put the time into learning new ones.
For example, I don't need a thermostat in my house that I can call with my cell phone and set the temperature because I'm coming home earlier or later than I had planned.
gene
A couple of phones ago, the salesman asked what I wanted to do with my new phone.
Me: "Make and receive phone calls."
Him: "Texting?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Photos."
Me: "No. I have two digital cameras."
Him: "Web access?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Apps?"
Me: "No."
I was arranging something over the weekend with someone else. In a matter of two minutes, she sent me 4 text messages. I just called her and got it straightened out and confirmed in 30 seconds.
I see lots of people not much younger than me who seem to have their smart phones attached to their left hands. In a minute of idle time, they're on it, ignoring everyone around them. Last light we were discussing if it was supposed to stay warm all week. Two of five people pulled out their phones and recited, 83, 84, 87, 88. Geez.
Not a Luddite, I've been using computers daily, often all day long since 1969. I just don't feel the need to be tethered. Oops, back to the shop.
Quote from: gene on June 18, 2013, 04:22:16 am
My cell phone makes phone calls and receives phone calls. No text, no VOC, no internet - it can take pictures but I don't have is signed up to get the software to put the pictures on my computer so I don't use it for pics.
gene