Having quoted for a large job a while back we were promptly informed that we weren't successful due to being more expensive than the winning quote from one of our competitors. Although this is fair enough and shit happens, we have been aware for some time that the quality of this competitor is somewhat questionable to say the least, and felt a little irked about losing the job to them for that reason.
It now turns out that the would be client isn't a happy bunny with them and turned up at our door expecting us to complete our competitors unfinsihed work, but they were somewhat surprised when we refused to handle the unfinished work. We explained that we don't mind having to make slight alterations that are made by others, but we draw the line when they bring in a number of skins for boat seats that need to be butchered in order to fit, and will at the end of the day look bloody awful, and most importantly have our name associated with them.
They went away, again, not happy bunnies, but we are now feeling bad about it and feel that we've become the bad guys in all this.
So I ask, what would've you done if in our shoes?
A couple times a year people bring us boat tops they bought at the boat show and have given up on installing them themselves. We explain flat out that it might turn out like crap and that won't be our fault, and they will still have to pay for our time. Sometimes we try to give them a break if we can use what they have to make something new as an incentive to start fresh.
The customer usually appreciates our work and hates their top. Talking us up, and our competitor down (Not always mind you)
I would do the job but sting him hard with a 'stupid tax'. Unless the skins are complete junk....
PDQ,
1st off, you sir are my hero.
The only mistake you made about this issue is feeling bad. Your not obligated to take on any job, just like the customer is not obligated to use your services. If you ever work at a bar for a period of time, you learn to understand why they have those little signs outside the front door "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason."
They had a bad experience, and wanted YOU to come in and clean up the mess.
Let me tell you this from my experiences with issues like this; they will NEVER be happy, no matter what you try to do for them. How can you guarantee your work, and part of their work? And, maybe it wasn't even the installer, but the customer who was at fault? Not only that...but it's next to impossible to turn a profit at that point as well. The amount of make up work, refitting, retooling, fixing all of their problems, it's next to impossible. They will not be happy at the end of the day, and neither will you.
The last thing you need is a customer to question your judgment against another competitors, and that's exactly what they would be doing, every step of the way.
As you can see, I have pretty strong feelings about this issue!!! ::)
when i get a request like that I explain to them how it would be more work and time for me to try to do as there asking rathern then for me to just start fresh. and that most of the cost is in the labor anyway so what are they realy saving a few hundred dollars on some butchered vinyl? to try and make it work would be silly in any timly manner.
My favorite quote in the world, and if I had a walk-in shop would be framed and prominently posted:
"There is hardly anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse
and sell a little cheaper, and those people who consider price only, are this man's lawful prey. It is unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot; it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better"
John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)
Oo, You have touched on a touchy subject here PDQ just from the responses already...
Nice quote from Hammerhand there.
It all kinda depends on the job and the situation and above all else the customer, There are some out there you instantly know they will be impossible to please.
It's not nice getting screwed down on price and then the client wants all the whistles and bells on the job.
But in your case PDQ , When the customer walked in the door and started telling you about his problems
and what the other company did or didn't do... First things first , Laugh in his face, repeatedly
Then mention that it's very difficult, nay damned near impossible, to make honey out of dog shite or even polish the turd in question
Then again, if work is a bit slack , You could say you will re do the whole job , but now (todays price) is 50% more than your original quote and you will require 60% up front deposit.
Not sure who is worse The clown who couldn't do the job, (perhaps could but not to the owners expectations after he's changed his mind several times) Or the customer for having the cheek to refuse your estimate but get you to repair /finish it.. !
Just book him in and tell him .. " See yoU Next Tuesday ! :-*
Ditto what everyone else said. I refuse to pick up where someone else (good or bad) left off. No two upholsterers do things exactly the same way, and I'm way too busy to figure out somebody else's system.
My favorite was, "The other guy has already stripped it down, and that SEEMED like the hardest part". So now, I am left with the "easy" part.
Quote from: PDQ on July 29, 2010, 07:24:51 am
Having quoted for a large job a while back we were promptly informed that we weren't successful due to being more expensive than the winning quote from one of our competitors. Although this is fair enough and shit happens, we have been aware for some time that the quality of this competitor is somewhat questionable to say the least, and felt a little irked about losing the job to them for that reason.
It now turns out that the would be client isn't a happy bunny with them and turned up at our door expecting us to complete our competitors unfinsihed work, but they were somewhat surprised when we refused to handle the unfinished work. We explained that we don't mind having to make slight alterations that are made by others, but we draw the line when they bring in a number of skins for boat seats that need to be butchered in order to fit, and will at the end of the day look bloody awful, and most importantly have our name associated with them.
They went away, again, not happy bunnies, but we are now feeling bad about it and feel that we've become the bad guys in all this.
So I ask, what would've you done if in our shoes?
Way to take a stand you should not feel bad at all. They wanted it cheap but I guess they did not want it done right.
I would have said it is against our company policy to finish others works as we pride ourselves in fit finish and overall product. Judging from the looks of these skins, we will basically have to remake everything from scratch. I am more than happy to do the job at the bid we submitted.
Kevin
seamsperfect;
That's about the gist of it, and a proper way to speak to a customer.
I've tried to play hero quite a few times, only to have it blow up in my face. Not that we don't finish other customers or mechanics work, but we pre qualifiy our customers as to what is going on. If things seem to be going to wrong direction, I'm not afraid to back away.
Back to the old how do you want it , cheap , fast , quality , pick two
It's already been said, but this customer won't be happy no matter what. If you try to do them a favor by cleaning up someone elses mess and they aren't satisfied with the quality, you're the one who'll get the bad name for installing someone elses crap.
I like it when people bring me a job that they thought they could do themseves on the wife's home machine from wal-mart only to find out it wouldn't handle it, or they've cut out the material only to forget seam allowances or extra material for pleats. When you call them up to tell them, it's always your fault because his wife made straight A's in home economics and she wouldn't forget a thing like that. Yeah it's a touchy subject.
Kyle
I have never, and I can not ever see a situation when I would, use someone's CUT fabric.
I turned a job down a few months ago where the cushion panels for a sofa were all cut out. I said 'No'. I would reupholster the sofa and make new cushion covers but they needed to buy additional fabric for the cushion covers so I could cut them out myself. I even refused, politely, to look at the cut cushion cover panels to see if they were cut out correctly.
In your situation, PDQ, I think I would have offered my original offer to the customer - including all new materials.
I would then start singing:
"Let's start at the very beginning. A very good place to start.
When you read you begin with A - B - C.
When you sing you begin with do - re - me.
Do - re- me.
I find that either singing, or talking to my ceramic otter who is sitting on a pedestal that I build for him, tends to clear out the rift raft and the price shoppers.
Gene
Quote from: Gregg @ Keystone Sewing on July 29, 2010, 04:55:22 pm
seamsperfect;
That's about the gist of it, and a proper way to speak to a customer.
Greg,
That is the proper way of saying it but what it really means is " you really screwed up by not giving me the job, so now you have to pay" ;D
Kevin
Quote from: seamsperfect on July 29, 2010, 08:28:33 pm
Quote from: Gregg @ Keystone Sewing on July 29, 2010, 04:55:22 pm
seamsperfect;
That's about the gist of it, and a proper way to speak to a customer.
Greg,
That is the proper way of saying it but what it really means is " you really screwed up by not giving me the job, so now you have to pay" ;D
Kevin
And this here is the art of being politically correct!
hiya
I think i would tell the customer he got exactly what he paid for 'cheap' and just as was said before
offer the original estimate to do the job properly.
Plus maybe a small premium for the added expense for estimating the job twice :-)
there is no way I would re-hash someone elses muck up.
Rich
I can see both points of view with equal clarity.
But I also believe that there are times when coming to someone's aid while making perfectly clear your concerns and hesitations can be of great benefit. I think whether or not you're willing to do that depends a good deal upon your "feel" for the customer in question. Sometimes they are just looking for fix, any fix, and other times they really wish they'd listened to you and appreciate any effort you're willing to make. So I think I'll say that my decision is based entirely on my overall take on the individual situation. A qualified "maybe".
I have flatly refused to clean up someone else's mess. And there have been times I've patiently sorted out the botched job and put it right, or at least as close to "right" as I was able. And I've not only gained credibility in a customer's eyes (who declined my bid in the first place) but have also won them over for all time and all the good "word of mouth" advertising that can buy.
You know, there is another way of looking at this situation. Fixing your competitor's screw-up is probably some of the best "Word of mouth" advertising you can get. The customer will tell EVERYONE they know that YOU succeeded where the other guy failed.
Having said that, I will now come down off my "High horse" and say that I STILL wouldn't pick up where someone else left off. Like the rest of you, I'll be more than happy to start from scratch.
In the past, I've had customers bring in pieces that were previously upholstered (butchered) by a competitor. I will point all of the flaws, and say "When I get done, it won't have these defects".
Looks like bobbin and I were thinking along the same lines. Her's posted while I was still banging mine out.
It's probably not a bad idea if you CAN do a quick-fix on someone else's buffoonery.
I'm with Sofadoc on this one. And I do a lot of clothing alteration and repair work in my shop at home. So I tend to be more magnanimous in the "rescues" I'll undertake.
I see a lot really botched clothing alterations... some are beyond redemption but oftentimes the item can be rescued and made to fit correctly. In the case of clothing it's more a case of the person not knowing how or where to take the item in or let it out (usually the former since "modern" seam allowances preclude increasing size by too much). But if the alteration was taken in the wrong place and the allowance was trimmed "the escape route may have been sealed". In such cases I have only to turn the garment inside out and "have a gander" to assess the "sityashun" and make my call on whether or not my expertise can be of benefit.
It's different with awnings, marine canvas, upholstery work. Mistakes made because an overall design was flawed or because someone failed to pay adequate attention to a pattern and its position in the "big picture" of the entire job are things that are nigh on impossible to overcome.
In those cases, making it perfectly clear to the customer that your're doing your best to turn the sow's ear into an acceptable purse is the best you can hope for. In those cases I'd err on the side of extreme caution, too.
A few years ago I stopped, respectfully, providing Estimates for a certain customer. I was doing a lot of Estimates but was getting no work. This person told me that they were taking my Estimates and finding someone who could beat my price. I was spending my time, helping this person save a few bucks.
I asked them if the other people were spending their time on putting together Estimates. Nope. They were simply looking at my Estimate and giving a lower price.
Also:
If I fix other people's mistakes, am I making it easier for customers to use the cheap upholsterers and if there is a problem they know that I will step in to make things right???
Gene
"so - a needle pulling thread..."
And, "so" I'd do the very same thing, Gene.
How many times are you expected to "bark up the tree" only to learn there's no reason to bark, at all.
It's often different with clothing. Some dope screwed up the bridesmaid's dress and... there you have it. Oftentimes, my fix is do-able and given a deadline, fixing a botched job can make a huge difference. And, I charge for it!
At the risk of being kicked out of here, I have a different take on this situation - not being a professional or even in the service industry - teacher here :)
Often consumers (not always - Gene's customer is a good exemption) just don't know what they are doing. They are at the mercy of the people they go to to fix or buy whatever it is they need. Maybe they get a couple of quotes and listen to professional tell their tale. They have no way of knowing if what anyone is saying is the truth. Who knows what the other guy said. He obviously had a pretty good line cause he obviously didn't know what he was doing. Unfortunately, usually the bad guys are the slickest. I learned this the hardway - the first husband was a used car salesman -he sold cars with REBUILT TITLES and made a good living. He could charm a habit off of a nun. After my father died of a pretty lengthy illness, my mom had to get a new roof. The house was old and in pretty bad shape, roof had been leaky for a while. She got some quotes and she picked the guy she felt the most comfortable with - not the highest and not the lowest. He had given her lots of info and smiled and schmuzed her. Well, he screwed her. The house leaked like a sieve when he was finished, almost every ceiling and wall was ruined, mold came up everywhere. Ended up he didn't even have a license, was working under his father's,never pulled a permit. I got the building Dept involved and they forced him to pay a contractor to reroof it. I took him to small claims court and got awarded the max - 5k - he paid 2k and now we can't find him. He was good - even after all he did and all the times he said he was on his way over - he would talk such a good tale of sorrow that we, multiple times, believed his story and got suckered again.
So, to make a long story longer - my point is - although you all are honest in your dealings and know what you are doing, not everyone is like that. People get ripped off by the highest bidder as well as the lowest one. (I have a tale about my husband's Grand National motor and the high priced rip off who was said to be the best out there, but I will spare you anymore of my pain). People are clueless and believe what is told to them - they pick the slick talker 9 times out of 10. Don't take it personally - they aren't trying to get screwed - they are trying not to. YES, SOME ARE TRYING TO GET IT CHEAPER - but some are just bad at picking. Watch the Bachelorette? If she was smart she would pick the quiet shy guy in the back - but, NO, she picks the out going smooth talker who says all the "right" things - he always has a girlfriend backhome or he is just trying to be a star.
Ok - don't shoot me, I have sensitive feelings. And, of course, I could be wrong :)
I would probably do the work but charge them accordingly and if the cushions were bad tell them I will have s=to start from scratch.
It is a catch 22. While your trying to show good will and maintain a good name among the community this is also a customer who thumbed their nose at you because of your costs and went with a lower bid.
Chris
I have had to clean up competitors messes many times. Its always on my terms, but I will do it. Someone has to. And explain to them what happened. Its not easy to defend your trade to someone who's been "taken" but its part of the job. Sunshine n PC is right -- some people are very slick. And thats sad as heck. :(
Sunshine: I think what chaps most of us in the biz, is a customer who IS familiar with our work, and STILL chooses to shop the price elsewhere. This type of customer SHOULD have some idea of a realistic price for a particular job.
When they try to get it done "on the cheap", I really have no sympathy for them.
I know the situation is different for say, a roofing job, or a used car purchase.
But, if I got a roofing estimate that was FAR cheaper than the other one, I would be suspicious of the quality of work that I could expect (irregardless of how "slick-talking" the roofer was). And I just naturally assume that a used car salesman is lying if his lips are moving.
Don't worry, we wouldn't dream of "kicking you out" (but, you MIGHT be on double secret probation). :D
Sofadoc -- no, no not the double secret probation.......arrrghhhh. I told my child once if she didn't stop that she was going to be in hot water - she immediately started screaming and crying ..."no, no, don't put me in hot water!".
But - I do agree with you - if you know what you are doing and you choose - you have to live with the consequences. It seems that many times these are people who have the money to pay, but in an effort to keep their money they try to find someone to work at minimum wage - cause that's they think we deserve.
Me, I'm not cheap, just broke - got 5 kids, 5 dogs, & a hubby with hobbies....I'm doing my own boat seats, but I won't complain about them cause I know they are gonna be funky, I won't be taking them anywhere to be fixed either. We just gonna sit on them and cover up the crooked seams.
I get asked to fix a certain guys seats all the time-I won't do it. It would take me longer to fix his mess than to remake one the right way. Most will have me stitch up a new one.
As someone already said-I don't want my name & rep associated with the bad jobs-I've worked too hard to get where I am now.
Quote from: penguin on August 04, 2010, 05:40:58 am
I get asked to fix a certain guys seats all the time-I won't do it. It would take me longer to fix his mess than to remake one the right way. Most will have me stitch up a new one.
As someone already said-I don't want my name & rep associated with the bad jobs-I've worked too hard to get where I am now.
Don't you wonder how someone like that stays in business? He must be CHEAP! :o
actually he charges more than I do!
well put Bobbin, I posted this b4 but about a year ago
I bid a sailboat replacment dodger canvas and to build a new rear bimini and conector panlel. I didnt get the job and about 6 month later the guy had called me to ask if id still be interested in the job. i said sure when I got there he told me about the other guys work looking all wrinkled and bad but the new bimini frame was ok. I had told him that whewn i called and he said he gave the job out to another shop i had tossed my notes in the trash and id have to re price it.it turned out this time i was a few hundred higher even noty having to make the frame. he though i was sticking it to him but i honestly forgot my last quote and my new pricing was higher. then he said well ok lets do it and i said great ill write you a contrack and id like a 1/3 down deposite, that when he said oh i dont do deposites.and i said well thats how i book the job and order materials. he was reluctant so i gave in and said well how about then the deposite when i come out to pattern the tops ok that fair he said. asnd signed the contract with it stating that. this was a friday i think and saturday when i was mowing my lawn he called me to cancel the job. and thats when i told him thats why i need a deposite to weed out the serious customers.
Hi all, not been Online for a while, It's been very busy here and still is to be honest (my prices must be too low ;) ).
Thanks for all the comments, very interesting reading. :tup:
We decided to do the work, but on our terms, so we'll be throwing their messed up work in the bin and remake. I went to the boat last week and even the work they don't want changing is very poor.
It turns out that they also did some canvas work for them which we weren't even asked to price up. Needless to say that too was a pile of crap but they caught me on a good day and I agreed to rectify the bodge up.
Oh, by the way, I took some photos while I was there. Will post later, muahahahahahahahahaha!
Funny... I have never been asked to fix someone's mistakes till this week. Next week I'll be looking at a bimini that "does't fit right". I was not asked for a bid originally so I don't have any history with the customer. He says it's made from Sunbrella Plus... hmmm Can't wait to see it. No idea who produced it originally nor if it can be fixed.
June
It seems we all have a story about a competitor who's work is "less than stellar".
But I would like to know how you handle negative feedback about your competition. I've always tried to avoid commenting about another upholsterer. It would be easy, when a customer walks in your door complaining about "the other guy", to jump on the bandwagon. After all, negative stories about your competition can only serve to make YOU look better.
But my town used to have several furniture, and sewing factories. They all closed up within a 3 year span back in the early 90's. Suddenly, there were dozens of laid off workers trying their hand at upholstery. There were so many mediocre upholsterers in town, that it gave the WHOLE business a black eye. I soon learned NOT to bad-mouth any of them, as the average customer simply lumped ME in with the rest of them.
Unless I really get pinned down, I avoid criticizing other upholstery shops, and their quality (or lack of).
Just wondering how some of you guys & gals handle it. Do you really benefit from making sure the word gets out about another guy's shoddy work?
I will not bad mouth my competition. I have never believed in that and to be honest I get pissed off when dealing with someone who is trying to sell me something and they start bad mouthing their competition.
I typically will walk on the deal if that is the case.
Like I told a sales person one day " don't sit there and tell me your competition sucks. Prove it to me by walking the walk and not talking the talk ".
The only comment I will sometimes make is with my face - I either smile or roll my eyes but I wont bad mouth them with words.
Chris
I never talk about my competition unless it is to praise their work.
I would rather spend my time talking about me and the work that I do.
I have always felt that my service and quality speak much louder than my words.
I also think it makes a positive impression on my customers when I do not criticize my competition.
Gene
Unlike June I've just come off a stretch of finishing other guys headaches. I installed a dodger made by a reputable 'big' fabricator who refuses to travel to my town because we're in it. He has the customer call us. I make sure the customer understands I'm in no way responsible for the fit, and he will have to pay for any trims. He was happy (I would have trimmed it) and has booked a winter cover with us.
I also finished installing an Ameritex-peace-of-crap top for a guy who's dealor got him a boat with the wrong kind of top. We've made him every other top he's had and he hates this one so much we'll probably make him a new one this winter.
I try not to bad mouth the competition (except Ameritex, rejoice! They're bankrupt!) because I will eventualy make the same mistakes they do. I only hear the bad things about the competition from their disgruntled customers, and they only hear the bad things about me. There's a reason they're still in business. I hope they please somebody. There's always room for competition right? When your good.
When asked about my competition, I have two anwers. Either it's "Yes, he's very good", or "I'm really not familiar with his work". I have a great relationship with nearest competitor. We borrow from each other, swap stories, and combine our monies on bulk supply purchases. Occasionally, one of his former customers will find their way into my shop. I try to avoid doing their work. I just don't feel right about stealing one of his customers. I've never told him about any of his unhappy customers, and he's never said anything to me about any of mine. I've even made excuses on his behalf a few times. I also try to never send any "problem" customers his way. We have even warned each other about a few potentially difficult customers.