April will be my two year anniversary with my current employer. The subject of raise has never come up but is about to. It's been a long time since I've crossed this situation.
I've watched the profits of this company go up every year since I started and they will go up again this year.
I have a two page list of responsibility's I've taken since starting.
According to Salary.com I'm making $7000 under the average wage for upholsterers in this area and the raise I'm asking will still be $5000 under.
I have other opportunities including a shop in another state who offered more and has much better working conditions.
I've Googled this question but get mostly corporate situations. Some pointers from an employers viewpoint please.
Owners have a balancing act to make the business tick. Business is not always as profitable as it appears to the folks on the front lines. Pressuring for a raise may strain the relationship. I would say a subtle hint is better; and if it's possible the owner will reward a valuable employee. Other wise nothing prevents you from being a free agent. Using a gauge like salary.com would not be my information source. Has the employer made any prior salary agreements ? Do you know what's protocol in this shop with other employees ?
SA
I have spent the majority of my adult life in the corporate world and have alot of experience with these situations Kody.
It used to be that some employers who had good years and increased their market share would pass some of the green onto employees in the way of bonuses or raises. Now that greed has taken over the corporate world you have to beat an employer over the head with a hammer to get raises.
I am a firm believer in rewarding hard working employees through raises or bonuses. Some business owners are very short sighted and subscribe to the " everyone is replaceable " mentality. That is the furthest from the truth when your talking about skilled labor. If he didn't give you a raise and you did walk, what happens next ? You do not pickup the phone and call a temp agency for a replacement. Nor do you run an ad to find an experienced upholsterer who has master quality skill sets.
What you end up with is a green employee that you have to train. It will be two years before they can handle most of the jobs that come in the door and this equates to a loss of production which has an immediate effect on the bottom line. It is a fact training new employees is a costly affair. Even hiring an experienced stitcher is costly as they take time to get up and running inside a new shop.
If I owned a business that had good margins and a bottom line I would gladly hand you a raise. If I was struggling financially then I would sit you down and explain my situation and make you aware that I wont forget you when things get better.
Like Steve pointed out, sites such as salary.com are not good barometers of the real market. What they list as a normal salary is not what is being paid in the real world. Because we have a tight job market employers are in the drivers seat on wages. It wasn't to long ago that the market was great, unemployment was low and workers could command a better wage. This is not the case today.
If I was in your shoes I would go in, close the door and explain your feelings to the boss and ask for a raise. I would make sure you do not threaten to leave as this will back him into a corner and the response you get may not be to your liking. Chances are he is like many other business owners and will not hand out a raise unless asked for. Hell, what do you have to loose ? :)
Best of luck. I think you deserve this raise as I have seen your work in person and it is of master quality.
Chris
In my case, sometimes as employers we loose sight of time. We are more focused on the daily running of the business.
Taking phone calls from potential customers, going on estimates, ordering fabrics and supplies for the the jobs and all of the other duties we have running the business.
I have two employees.
One of my employees has been with me for six years. He is not shy to let me know when his anniversary date is coming up. I will sit down with him and discuss if I am able to give him a raise. I think there were two years I was not able to give hime a raise or if I did it was a small bump in his hourly wage.
The other day when I was doing my W-2, I did not realize that my second employee had been with me as long as he had. After I saw that, I bumped up his hourly wage. When I gave him his check, I talked to him to let him know that I gave him a raise. He was appreciative of that.
Like the others have said, if you have a talk with your employer and let him know that you have been with him for two years. Ask him if he is able to give you a raise.
Good luck.
Quote from: kodydog on January 31, 2014, 07:47:17 pm
I'm making $7000 under the average wage for upholsterers in this area and the raise I'm asking will still be $5000 under.
So you're asking for a raise that amounts to $38.46 a week. Based on a 5 day workweek, that's $7.69 a day. Not even a dollar an hour. Your boss could go up 5 bucks across the board on his "out the door" prices, and easily cover that raise. I think if you're going to ask for a raise, ask for a better one.
I started out in the family business working for my grandparents, and then my parents. I scraped by on the meager wage they paid me for years. They always insisted that they were "going in the hole" by paying me as much as they were.
The day that my mother died, and the business officially became mine, was the day that my income quadrupled.
Working for someone else is always going to be less income. Less responsibilities and less at stake. I've been lucky over all. I've worked for myself and experienced the whole thing and also have worked for a couple others. I the corporate world I had to ask for raises. Well it was a yearly evaluation thing that worked out well for me. The "job" I have now for a 4 1/4 employee shop I have not had to ask. Raises have been offered without me needing to ask. I like that :)
Anyway what I learned from the corporate end when asking for an increase in salary was...
1. Never threaten to leave. Never.
2. Never say things like I need to pay this and that. It's not your employers problem.
3. Explain with good reference just what accomplishments you have made that helped the business grow or be better. More productive because of you. That kind of thing.
4. Understand the business and it capabilities. Might be the company is not making enough to justify adding the expense.
I'm sure there is more but I don't want to bore the audience.
The basic advise is assess your skills, the potential pay for the skills, and use that as a guide in asking for a pay raise.
We have heard it said about the blood and turnip, if there is not any blood, go for more turnip or whatever the market will support for our contributions. We are in a small cap business, so use information and guidelines meaningful. Foreign competition does have to be recognized as a factor in reupholstering furniture. Situations change but the over riding factor is competition.
My business has changed so much the last 15 years, therefore changes have been required to keep the bottom line in my favor.
Doyle
Great advice. Some evening or weekend, sit down with a piece of paper and write down what you have accomplished, what skills have improved, how you are working efficiently, what new tasks and responsibilities you are taking on, how much/little supervision or help you need, how you are developing other co-workers, etc. Back up material if you get into a discussion about why you should get more money.
Quote from: MinUph on February 01, 2014, 07:02:09 am
Anyway what I learned from the corporate end when asking for an increase in salary was...
1. Never threaten to leave. Never.
2. Never say things like I need to pay this and that. It's not your employers problem.
3. Explain with good reference just what accomplishments you have made that helped the business grow or be better. More productive because of you. That kind of thing.
4. Understand the business and it capabilities. Might be the company is not making enough to justify adding the expense.
Thanks all. I've read all the responses carefully and am prepared to meet with them next week. It's the not knowing that makes me nervous. They (father and son) may say alright as soon as I ask or they may make me jump through hoops.
When I was hired I held out for more money and got it. I'm the highest paid upholsterer in their business. Ever.
But does this mean I don't deserve a raise. I think I do and I am prepared to follow other opportunities.
When talking to other employes it sounds like raises are far and few between. But they're not me. One way or another I'll be making more money this time next year. And I know I should not use this as a threat when discussing this subject during the meeting. On the other hand I think my employer knows I am not stuck in this job like most of their other employees. Call me arrogant if you like.
My employer holds his prices close to his chest but over time I've gleaned some insight into their profits and can say with certainty they can afford to give me a raise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type that would call them greedy. I'm more likely to say more power to them. I just want my fair due. 2013 was their best year ever and this year will be even better.
Last week, while talking to the boss, I laid out a plain to make more profits. Just a suggestion nothing else. His response, I don't need to make more money. I said, jokingly, I'd like to make more. This is what I'm up against. I feel like I'm working for a zero growth company. Does this mean my wages are also zero growth.
As far as accomplishments, I've turned into the "go to guy" when the other upholsterers have problems. Either with a project or management. I'm also the the go to guy when the boss needs someone to bounce things off of or when poor planing constitutes an emergency. I save their butts on a weekly basis. Is this something I should bring up? What I have are two pages of true accomplishments I've done to improve performance. But will they care. We'll see
Quote from: kodydog on February 01, 2014, 01:08:02 pm
Last week, while talking to the boss, I laid out a plain to make more profits. Just a suggestion nothing else. His response, I don't need to make more money. I said, jokingly, I'd like to make more. This is what I'm up against. I feel like I'm working for a zero growth company. Does this mean my wages are also zero growth.
Oh man... I've been there. Some years back I worked for a small company (an accounting firm) and I went in gung-ho to add clients and make lots of money. I was going to build them a web page, get it listed on Google, add high-net-worth clients, automate manual processes, progress towards paperless, etc. They weren't interested in expanding, adding clients, or making more money, though I was making barely enough to survive. They wanted to change absolutely NOTHING. While that was their perogative as the business owners, I left in less than 3 months. It was probably the most frustrating job I've ever had.
June
hmmmmm this board's spellchecker doesn't like "perogative". What's happening to our language anyway?
The other thing I can advise, and maybe it's just because I don't like to get blind-sided : ask your boss for a time in the next week, and give a specific date, like Friday afternoon, to discuss a "performance appraisal." This will give him/her a chance to review your accomplishments, responsibilities, strengths and weaknesses over the last year and where you plan to expend over the next year. Once you've had a chance to discuss this, you can bring up the topic of a raise.
As an aside, I have a niece who's an elementary school teacher -- never had any other job. She is always b1tching about having to go to work after long days off, snow days, etc. She just does not understand the non-academic real world where you don't:
- Have an 8:30 to 3:30 day
- Get 10 days off at Christmas, five at Easter, ALL the holidays off, and a 2.5 month vacation every summer. I don't know any job that only works 185 days a year.
- Get raises based on "time and space" and not on merit. In fact, you can be the worst teacher in the school and as long as you show up regularly and don't get in trouble, you have a job, and you get raises based on how many years you've taught and what degrees you have.
- Retire at 52.
- Once you've done the work (lesson plans, homework assignments, exam questions), you can just keep reusing it.
Kody, we can talk.
Are you getting the feeling of under appreciated? If so, before a serious meeting where you emphasize the raise, do your home work on what your reaction will be if you don't get a raise to your liking. If you have a better market around, verify that before you meet as you could be emotionally driven to make a commitment that would not help you, make matters worse.
Your boss, says he doesn't want to grow the business to increase profits .....if he actually meant that ...........can you be mollified with status quo?
Develop your plan and if asked lay it out in a friendly fashion, my point is don't make a commitment or take a stern position on your part. Keep the boss guessing about a planned departure.
I think you get the drift.
Good luck, you know your position, aspirations, and monetary expectations much better than anyone else. How about the wife as a sounding board on this issue? She has insights from her experience in your business, right?
Doyle
Quote from: byhammerandhand on February 01, 2014, 03:46:01 pm
The other thing I can advise, and maybe it's just because I don't like to get blind-sided : ask your boss for a time in the next week, and give a specific date, like Friday afternoon, to discuss a "performance appraisal." This will give him/her a chance to review your accomplishments, responsibilities, strengths and weaknesses over the last year and where you plan to expend over the next year. Once you've had a chance to discuss this, you can bring up the topic of a raise.
I'm pretty sure these folks have never had an performance appraisal and would probably not know how to conduct one. I'm not saying its a bad idea, in fact its a good one but I'm sure I would be leading the discussion.
They keep no records of performance. They have little idea how much time is spent on any one project. Case in point: last week we finished a three piece sectional. Brand new from the frame up. The boss came up to me and asks how much time was spent on my part of the job. This question comes up often so I keep detailed records of every project I do and how much time I spend on each one. When I added it all up he couldn't believe I only had six day in it. He argued I must have at least 2 weeks. When I figured the sewer and the cushion stuffer's time it still came to only 11 days from start to finish.
My feelings are not so much of under appreciated as more disappointed. Like June, when I joined this company I saw great opportunity to help take this company to the next level. If I'd known that the opportunity was not there I wouldn't have joined this group. Huge mistake on my part by not discussing this and future raises before I was hired.
This is not the first time the boss has used the phrase, I don't need to make more money. And his son has expressed perfect contentment with his lot in life. Everything is taken care of for him buy the company. This isn't a complaint, I'm truly happy they are doing so well. But as I read the words I've written the last few days I can see self employment as a very viable option. This was actually the wife's idea. We've got enough work to keep me busy for several months and a game plan to get my business back to the city where it should be.
The next week will be interesting.
Best of luck with your raise, kodydog.
A lot of good advice on this post.
You wrote:
QuoteThis is not the first time the boss has used the phrase, I don't need to make more money. And his son has expressed perfect contentment with his lot in life. Everything is taken care of for him buy the company. This isn't a complaint
I think this is a big red flag. Expenses keep going up. Health care anyone? How does the owner expect to pay for rising expenses without making more money? How does the owner expect to give pay raises?
You wrote:
QuoteI can see self employment as a very viable option.
I think knowing what your options are is very important. Most employees ask for a raise within the context of win/lose. I win if I get my raise, and I lose if I don't. I like the win/win mentality. "How can a raise for me be a win/win for me and the company?"
If the owner, and his son, feel that they have already won and their only interest is to maintain what they have, it may not be possible for you to have a win/win scenario because giving you a raise may not have any benefits to them.
On the other hand, I interviewed for a job in my previous life as a sales manager in the paper packaging industry. I knew what I wanted in terms of salary, commission, company car, etc. I knew what I was willing to take, and I knew what I was not willing to take. I was offered waaaaay more than what I wanted!!! I was speechless!!! I hadn't considered that possibility. LOL
Again, best of luck.
gene
Sometimes, an employer must provide incentives to his employees. Sometimes, it's the other way around.
Your boss has no incentive to increase profits because he's quite satisfied with HIS current income.
The reason that he is satisfied, is because he has employees that aren't pushing him for more money (or at least he THINKS he does).
This is a case where the employees must give the boss an incentive. The only way they can do that, is be prepared to find a better opportunity elsewhere. When he starts having to re-train new employees........THEN he will have the incentive that he needs.
One of the main reasons that I've never wanted to grow my business to the point where I would need to hire employees, is that I would feel an obligation to provide them with opportunities for advancement (which I'm not sure that I could do). I would consider myself very selfish if I expected them to limit themselves for my long-term benefit.
Sofa, that makes perfect sense.
My desire is to continually advance. Even though the boss has lost this desire I still give him 100%. And I will continue to do that until I take advantage of other opportunities.
This quote is from Walter Wattles,
The desire for riches is really the desire for a richer, fuller, and more abundant life; and that desire is praise worthy. The man who does not desire to live more abundantly is abnormal, and so the man who does not desire to have money enough to buy all he wants is abnormal.
Train yourself to think of and to look upon the world as a something which is becoming, which is growing; and to regard seeming evil as being only that which is undeveloped. Always speak in terms of advancement; to do otherwise is to deny your faith, and to deny your faith is to lose it.
Well?
Lots of interesting comments on appreciation in the workplace along with the ability to grow professionally at your job. The latter was in pretty short supply and that's probably the biggest reason I left.
I've been very fortunate to have worked for people who paid me well. I had paid vacations and there was usually a Christmas bonus, I never had to ask for one. And there was a retirement plan with a small match (which was great!).
I see that you have to be prepared and keep the focus on how much and how well you do your job for the company. Definitely lots of great advice above.
It took all week to find the right time to ask. It was hard to find a time when the boss and son were alone together. There is no traditional office to have a quiet conversation and it is difficult to find them alone together without being interrupted by customers or other employes. Also Wednesday the boss and son had a big argument that ended with the son walking out. Not a good time to ask for a raise. Yesterday I found the time.
I kept it short and simply said, April will be my 2 year anniversary and will expect a raise at that time. Then I went one step further and asked for my old hours back. Working 36 hrs a week and taking Mondays off. This will be the first step toward getting our business cranked up again. They said they would have to talk about it. I told them to take as much time as they need but I'd like to know by next week. They didn't say no and that's a good sign. Another interesting week coming up. I swear I could write a best selling novel about this place.
Friday night the wife and I picked up a room full of furniture. The customer lives in an up-scale neighborhood and has used us before. She has switched designers and would like to introduce us to her. She also asked for several cards to pass around to her neighbors. When we told her we were going full time with our business she got excited.
We're excited too and want to do this right which includes moving our business back to the city. I'll have many questions and will keep you all informed.
The future is brighter than ever.
I've been thinking of you all week, Kody. I've never had to ask for a raise, but I really anguished over giving my notice and heading out on "my own". It was hard... doing your best day in/day out means that you're emotionally invested in your employer's business (for better or worse). Juggling the pluses and the minuses is the hard part. Keep us informed.
(thinking about adopting a young dog... )
Bobbin:
I for one am glad you went out on your own. You have made " others " money for far to long. Time to make some for yourself.
Your a very intelligent and hardworking person. I know you can do it.
As to you Ed, I wish you the very best as always. Keep us posted.
Chris
Just remember keep it small keep it all.
Hey kodyD, I missed your post about asking for a raise. Sounded like they heard you. That's a good start. Wanting to take a week to think about what to do with a great employee is not a sign of competence on their part, in my book.
*** It's fascinating to find that sometimes owners of businesses are actually afraid of too much new business - too much growth. Or growing too fast. Or having employees that are more motivated / smarter than they are. Just a thought that may be totally unrelated to your situation.
And congrats on starting back on your own business. It's a lot of work, but the satisfaction can be awesome sometimes.
On another note:
There was a discussion on our local radio station about many, many people thinking that they could finally leave their place of employment and start their own businesses because now they can afford their own healthcare through Obama care. WRONG! They are finding that Obama care, as it was designed, and as it was always meant to be, is just too expensive.
gene
PS: You're the first person I've ever known to quote Wallace Wattles.
Did you get your raise, Kody?
Yes. I half expected the boss to say, that ain't going to happen but they gave it to me without hesitation. Even gave it to me earlier than my 2 year anniversary. The bosses son did give me grief when I told them I need Mondays off. Lots of grief. I'll be working 9 hrs a day, 4 days a week. This is the schedule I worked when I was first employed. I couldn't get him to give me any good reason why this wouldn't work except to say he needs me in the back room Monday thru Friday. The only thing I can figure is now he has to come in one day a week at 9:00 instead of his usual 9:30.
He told me he needs me to keep an eye on the other employees and to keep things rolling along. I told him without any kind of authority, ie: supervisory position, I'm just one of the guy's in the back room. Nobody really HAS to listen to me and often they don't.
We went around and around on this. Three different meetings. Unfortunately he didn't want his father involved in the discussions. The climax came when I asked if this was an ultimatum. Will I be fired if I don't show up on Mondays? I was ready to walk. He quickly backed down and I got what I wanted. I'm sure he thinks I'm a real butt head but I also think they need me way more than I need them.
During our last conversation, this was after he told me the raise was approved, he told me, you know Ed, you or I couldn't make more money doing upholstery working for anyone else anywhere else. I told him I have an offer sitting on the table right now. This is something I didn't want to bring up but after a statement like that I couldn't resist.
BTW, he opted for the smart phone over a desktop computer. The company paid for it even though 90% of its use is personal. He keeps telling me its a good tool and I keep telling him its a toy. Yea he thinks I'm a butt head
Congrats Ed. You deserved every bit of that raise.
Chris
I'm glad to hear that! you are most deserving. And I'm glad you stuck to your guns about returning to your original hours and refusing the added "supervisory" responsibility. It seems to me that the son is one of those "wheedlers"; always looking for a little bit more. I'm happy for you.
Moving forward. Yesterday I gave my resignation notice. I thought 60 days was more than fair. Their asking for more time to find a replacement. I can't wait to get back on my own.
Good for you!
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul" - excerpt from Invictus.
June
I gave Boss 2 mos. notice. I finished my last job, cleaned out my tools, and left my key on the desk. Haven't been back since and Boss has never made an effort to come see my shop... .
Still feels weird, but sometimes that's how things shake out. Things are OK here; repeat business (good sign) and referrals from last year's "first crop". I'm busy through the end of June and the phone is still ringing. So, we'll see.
Happy for you, Kody.!
Two weeks ago I gave a 60 day notice of resignation with much harassment from the bosses about how this was totally unfair, saying they could never find a replacement that quick.
Tuesday the son calls me up front and asks if I would leave Friday they found someone else. A 3 day notice. Of course I gave him a hard time about all the BS they gave me and of course I happy agreed.
Later that day the "real" boss and his son got into a heated argument about how the shelves in the storage room should be built. Turned into a shoving match with the son daring the father to hit him.
Thursday I heard shouts and cussing coming from up front. Another argument ending with the son walking out. Only problem was the father needed to be at an appointment so we closed shop 1/2 hour early.
Friday I turned my key over to the "real" boss and thanked him for the opportunity to work for him. This started another long conversation that solved nothing.
Friday afternoon they fired the shop helper. I've talked about him before on here. Been with the company over 2 years, has learned many skills, but drugs are messing up his life. I hope he gets it straightened out.
Today I'm a free man. Feels great.
Wow! If the father and son can't even be rational about shelving, it sounds like they have much deeper issues that likely will never be resolved. At least not until the day comes when the father is too old to take an active part in the business. When that day comes, the son can run it into the ground any way he sees fit.
As for the helper, his best chance to turn things around is to hit rock bottom. Getting fired is probably the best thing that could've happened to him.
Not worried about K-dog. He has proven time and again that he can successfully work for someone else, or on his own.
Ditto what Sofa. said. Working in a shop where nothing can ever be done (read: change) without a 3 day "seminar" with the boss is exhausting. You're best "gone", Kody. Talent, creativity, and a desire to crank out nice work is "run into the ground" in that sort of atmosphere. Their "bad energy" is like a fire... sucks the oxygen right out of the room!
(duh for pre-edit)
Quote from: sofadoc on May 17, 2014, 08:38:42 am
At least not until the day comes when the father is too old to take an active part in the business. When that day comes, the son can run it into the ground any way he sees fit.
During that last conversation I had with the boss he kept questioning me why I no longer wanted to work there and he told me how PO'd he is at his son. I suggested now may be a good time to turn the whole thing over to him. I said do it now while your still healthy and can slowly show him how to do things like the checking account, ordering supplies, payroll, and keeping the books balanced. I told him now would be better than if someday you should become sick or god forbid die. Then the whole thing lands in the sons lap during a very stressful time in his life.
He told me this business took a lot of sweat and blood over many year to build and he would rather sell the whole thing than watch his son run it to the ground. This got me thinking, If the old man feels this way then why in the world would I want to spend the rest of my working life dependent on someone who does not know how to run a business.
So I asked him, If you were me, I'm 56 years old, I'll be working another 15-20 years (god willing), if you were me would you want to work for your son? Apparently this stumped him because he was quiet for a long time and when he did speak he changed the subject.
Bobbin, he was asking my opinions so I brought that up too. I told him arguing in front of the employees is a real morale killer and would best be done in private.
He kept asking me, why didn't you tell me what was bothering you? This blows my mind, as you all know I generally don't hold back my opinions. I told him this and pointed out several examples of improvements I've suggested over the last two years. He also told me if you were so unhappy with my son why didn't you tell me? He said he would have straightened him out. Only problem is he's never been able to do that before.
Congrats! At least now you're out of all that drama. I couldn't hack that at all. Good for you! Monday morning comes soon enough and it's all up to you now. Go get 'em!
June
Ed:
You and I are the same age. It seemed I hit a certain point in my life that I could no longer tolerate drama. I culled a few friends who seemed to thrive on drama and thankfully my kids matured and do not provide any for me.
I like a sedate life and work place. I turn on my music and work and do not have to deal with BS. Glad things worked out for you. I am sure no matter how high someone throws you in the air you will land on your feet. Best of luck.
Chris
I'm 56 as well. I haven't had any workplace drama in years. My grandparents started the business in 1960. They passed it on down to my parents, and then on down to me.
You BETTER believe.......during the years when all 3 generations worked in the business at the same time, there was more drama than you could shake a stick at.
My grandmother used to throw her head back at laugh uncontrollably at the absurd notion of my mother being able to someday run the business. The ONLY thing they agreed on, was that the notion of ME someday running the business was even more absurd.
All I know is, I turn out more work in a week now than they ever did in their best month. And as I recall, they had a fairly high amount of complaints. After delivering a completed piece, they would cringe every time the phone rang. They just knew that the customer was calling back to complain about something. And quite often, they were right. Today, my % of complaints is so low, I don't even think about it.
I only wish that I had a forum like this one during those years when I was basically learning the trade on my own. My only "GO-TO" guy for advice was a supply salesman. And most of his advice was geared toward whatever it was that he was trying to sell me.
As a family business, we were literally flying by the seat of our pants.
Nowadays, when I've wanted some drama, I've had to come on here and read about you guys. But heck, Ed won't be having drama anymore. Chris doesn't have any, and Bobbin got rid of hers. C'mon guys!! Paul? Gene? June? Mike? I need someone to live vicariously through. ;)
1st day back working for myself full time. Phones been ringing pretty steady and I'm lovin it.
Just wanted to thank every one for all the good advice these last 4 months and for putting up with all my ranting. I feel it really helped me keep my sanity.
Moving forward we're still planing on moving back into town. We need to decide on Gainesville or St Augestine. We have a lot of customers in Gainesville and Lake City and we own a house in High Springs. About half way between the two. But the wife has her heart set on St Augustine. It is a pretty neat place. But first we have to sell our house in the sticks.
I think this thread is about worn out. Thanks again all.